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Author Topic: Brian Wilson - 2022 Tour Thread (Plus Archived 2021)  (Read 37552 times)
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« Reply #250 on: August 02, 2022, 12:48:05 PM »

Some (far too many) guys in BB "fandom" are among the worst people around. I could name them one by one. Pure undiluted jackals - no offense intended to real jackals, I'm using them as metaphor. Sorry, but someone has to tell the sad truth. Shame on them.

« Last Edit: August 02, 2022, 12:49:30 PM by Zenobi » Logged
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« Reply #251 on: August 02, 2022, 01:10:00 PM »

BB fandom could easily warrant its own entire book on the subject. Not that it *should*, but it *could* easily fill a book.

Fandoms are usually not very willing or able to be honest about their own foibles, so it's a very difficult subject to talk about constructively.

It's one of the reasons discussion about an extremely innocuous reissue of a hits package a month or two ago led to unfathomable vitriol from a small cabal of "fans."
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« Reply #252 on: August 02, 2022, 02:45:45 PM »

Quote
Some (far too many) guys in BB "fandom" are among the worst people around. I could name them one by one. Pure undiluted jackals - no offense intended to real jackals, I'm using them as metaphor. Sorry, but someone has to tell the sad truth. Shame on them.

This. A million times this.


Iíll be straight up and admit the way the fan community has devolved to the point where people are catcalling from the audience and claiming abuse, and posting things on various forums claiming potentially libelous things with NO PROOF , and talk sh*t about anybody who doesnít agree with them Ö  real talk itís killing my enthusiasm. Neither does the fact that there is little to no official communication with the fans, to the point people find out about cancellations from other sources, ngl that bothers me too. It makes things way harder to defend and/or explain. It leads to these baseless allegations, and certain people who have barely hid their disdain of Brian over the years then feel empowered to talk their sh*t. I donít know what the hell is wrong with people. Complete lack of empathy for their fellow human. But hey we live in a society where if you speak out against racism and homophobia you get slammed for ďwoke politics ď.  Cause acceptance of those different than you is bad, you know, And then people wonder why Iím suicidal. Straight up, this world fucking sucks. So yeah when I see certain people dogging out Brian , a kind man who doesnít possess a mean or cruel bone in his body, straight up that pisses me off. I try to be neutral , but some of the things Iíve read lately is inexcusable. People just need a boogeyman to vilify , even when there is none. Especially when there is none. 

So if anyone from Brianís team is reading thisÖ even though Brianís touring was to keep him active and therapeutic, and Brian needs the adulation, unfortunately too many of the ďfansĒ  are made up of Karens who always know better. These mental geniuses hate how people dictate whatís best for Brian , as they themselves dictate whatís best for Brian.  They figured it out! Everyone in Brianís band, his family and loved ones, everyone, all banded together to force Brian to tour against his will to be miserable onstage all in the name of breaking even , if that. Everyone in the world except these brave keyboard warriors . 🙄



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« Reply #253 on: August 02, 2022, 04:04:50 PM »

These mental geniuses hate how people dictate whatís best for Brian , as they themselves dictate whatís best for Brian.  They figured it out! Everyone in Brianís band, his family and loved ones, everyone, all banded together to force Brian to tour against his will to be miserable onstage all in the name of breaking even , if that. Everyone in the world except these brave keyboard warriors . 🙄

This exactly. I get very defensive when I see the "handler" or "Brian is controlled" talk come up, because it implies some very awful things about the people in Brian's life - from his family, to his good friends, to the band members. None of them deserve to be thought of as aiding in or ignoring some deplorable conspiracy against Brian's wellbeing by the hand of Melinda Wilson.

Sadly I don't think certain fans think too deeply about what their speculation implies.

Iím not signaling the demise of Brian, but in any scenario where the rest of the band goes out as a ďBrian Wilson BandĒ sort of thing, one has to remember that not only would there be a question of the type of bookings they could get (which in turn would dictate that it would be difficult to pay for that many musicians), but itís not clear that all of the members would want to keep doing that. Obviously, some of them already do side gigs with tribute bands and whatnot. But at least a few of them donít, and Iím not sure theyíd want to keep it going without Brian. And obviously, either position/opinion on that is totally justifiable.

I tend to doubt the show *currently* makes a ton of money considering how many musicians are on stage. If they had to book smaller venues, I donít think they could afford it. What youíd end up with is a scaled-back band along the lines of the band behind Al and his gigs.

Yeah I guess I didn't think of whether or not the band members would even want to continue in their current form without Brian as the foundation (though I do realize that such a setup wouldn't likely be financially stable).

That being said, I do hope that Darian and other bandmembers who want to, will make some original music again. I think they could do some really cool stuff, and all with the essence of Brian Wilson. I don't know, just a thought.
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« Reply #254 on: August 02, 2022, 04:29:55 PM »

It's my understanding that a chunk of the band doesn't want to do the music without Brian. Some do, and you can likely guess who they are by checking which members of the BW group cross-pollinate with the various quasi-official tribute bands in the LA area. I don't think there's any bad blood or ill will because of this, just different priorities.
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« Reply #255 on: August 02, 2022, 05:54:19 PM »

I think touring as The Brian Wilson Band wonít happen, however I can see the day when the guys continue in some form and they include a Beach Boys Ďsetí during their shows.
Something like ĎWe backed Brian Wilson and The Beach Boys for over 20 years, and would like to play some of our favourites we did with themí.

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« Reply #256 on: August 02, 2022, 06:43:53 PM »

Quote
Some (far too many) guys in BB "fandom" are among the worst people around. I could name them one by one. Pure undiluted jackals - no offense intended to real jackals, I'm using them as metaphor. Sorry, but someone has to tell the sad truth. Shame on them.

This. A million times this.


Iíll be straight up and admit the way the fan community has devolved to the point where people are catcalling from the audience and claiming abuse, and posting things on various forums claiming potentially libelous things with NO PROOF , and talk sh*t about anybody who doesnít agree with them Ö  real talk itís killing my enthusiasm. Neither does the fact that there is little to no official communication with the fans, to the point people find out about cancellations from other sources, ngl that bothers me too. It makes things way harder to defend and/or explain. It leads to these baseless allegations, and certain people who have barely hid their disdain of Brian over the years then feel empowered to talk their sh*t. I donít know what the hell is wrong with people. Complete lack of empathy for their fellow human. But hey we live in a society where if you speak out against racism and homophobia you get slammed for ďwoke politics ď.  Cause acceptance of those different than you is bad, you know, And then people wonder why Iím suicidal. Straight up, this world fucking sucks. So yeah when I see certain people dogging out Brian , a kind man who doesnít possess a mean or cruel bone in his body, straight up that pisses me off. I try to be neutral , but some of the things Iíve read lately is inexcusable. People just need a boogeyman to vilify , even when there is none. Especially when there is none.  

So if anyone from Brianís team is reading thisÖ even though Brianís touring was to keep him active and therapeutic, and Brian needs the adulation, unfortunately too many of the ďfansĒ  are made up of Karens who always know better. These mental geniuses hate how people dictate whatís best for Brian , as they themselves dictate whatís best for Brian.  They figured it out! Everyone in Brianís band, his family and loved ones, everyone, all banded together to force Brian to tour against his will to be miserable onstage all in the name of breaking even , if that. Everyone in the world except these brave keyboard warriors . 🙄

On the other hand if anyone raises a question about  Brian's wellbeing, some will call them misinformed or conspiracy theorists. One side lacks the proof as the other. I don't know what this has to do with homophobia and racism. But when you get told one race is inferior to another or responsible for sins of the past while other sins are not to be mentioned, you get pushback. Calling someone a Karen might not be the most tolerant thing to say either. Actually kind of degusting.


« Last Edit: August 02, 2022, 06:44:42 PM by joe_blow » Logged
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« Reply #257 on: August 02, 2022, 07:33:00 PM »

Until you know what itís like to have a swastika carved into the hood of your car, or racial epithets , you donít have sh*t to say.
But thatís how people like you are. You just had to get that little fucking jab in, didnít you you stupid son of a bitch? You literally proved my point. Was I saying one race was better than the other? No! I was saying quite the opposite , but as usual certain types of people donít like the idea that some people actually donít think people of any race, creed, or orientation is better than the other.

If youíd bothered to read, youíd see that I have concerns about Brianís touring as well, and was referring to the extreme posts Iíve been seeing. I did NOT want to post it here but it goes beyond concern.

And itís spelled DISGUSTING, dumbass.





Edit

WaitÖ.did this clown just defend being a racist? Iíll be damned if Iím going to let someone like that drive me away here. To hell with that . Not quitting.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2022, 08:21:34 PM by ♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇 » Logged

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« Reply #258 on: August 03, 2022, 02:01:18 AM »

The comments about BB fandom rather remind me of a certain person on the EH board, one of whose footnotes is 'I'm writing a history of online BB fandom: it's called "Fuckwits, Shitweasels and a Sprinkling of Fools".' I'm assuming it's an autobiography lol! (Credit to my sister who came up with this.)

I'd posted a few times on this site, nearly always getting into various arguments. But I was accused by above person of 'giving Mike grief' because I'd said I don't like his presentation and quoted his 'show in two halves' comment (he meant 1st and 2nd but perhaps a Freudian slip).

There had been some nasty comments about Brian solo fans choosing to ignore various things, with which my sister took issue and commented on how ironic the EH name was. The response to this from His Nibs was something like 'Post somewhere else. There's the door' and when she deleted her account 'Mission accomplished'.  I replied that I was leaving before being banned for life. I'm sure he got the reference.

With so many really nasty people in the world, there really is no need to feel prejudice based on colour, class or creed! Save your ire for those who richly deserve it!

Apologies for the rant.
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« Reply #259 on: August 03, 2022, 02:16:28 AM »

I like and respect you Billy and cannot abide by racism.  No one who has not been subjected to racism knows what it is really like but I have to say that the way we are dealing with it now is just tipping the scale the other way and will end in conflict.  We need to be less divisive, build bridges and take on board that we are all the same and skin colour is unimportant - we are all of mixed origin so made of the same stuff.  So far as I can tell there is no racism involved in the disgusting way some people behave in 'fandom'.  I could claim there was sexism but I won't because those who behave badly just use whatever weapon is available at the time.  Those people are just nasty.  They also cannot actually defend their stance so they just side track the argument.  I'm not sure that what was said here was intended to be racist - it seemed like frustration at the way we are dealing with things these days, making it worse instead of better but if it was intended let's not let them side track the point and just move along.

Suffice to say Brian is not a trained seal and does not need handlers.  The people who support him are there to help him with his health issues and to fend off the idiots he wants to keep away from.  I suspect that the source of this way of thinking is one of those who is being kept away and they don't like it.
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« Reply #260 on: August 03, 2022, 02:37:11 AM »

The comments about BB fandom rather remind me of a certain person on the EH board, one of whose footnotes is 'I'm writing a history of online BB fandom: it's called "Fuckwits, Shitweasels and a Sprinkling of Fools".' I'm assuming it's an autobiography lol! (Credit to my sister who came up with this.)

I'd posted a few times on this site, nearly always getting into various arguments. But I was accused by above person of 'giving Mike grief' because I'd said I don't like his presentation and quoted his 'show in two halves' comment (he meant 1st and 2nd but perhaps a Freudian slip).

There had been some nasty comments about Brian solo fans choosing to ignore various things, with which my sister took issue and commented on how ironic the EH name was. The response to this from His Nibs was something like 'Post somewhere else. There's the door' and when she deleted her account 'Mission accomplished'.  I replied that I was leaving before being banned for life. I'm sure he got the reference.

With so many really nasty people in the world, there really is no need to feel prejudice based on colour, class or creed! Save your ire for those who richly deserve it!

Apologies for the rant.

No need to apologizeÖIím sorry you had to go through that. Youíre more than welcome here.

My apologies to everyone for earlier. I was referring to something I saw on Facebook and that guy I guess thought I was talking about him. But based on post history I guess it was pot kettle black. Itís been handled.
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Howís that view from the nosebleed seats?
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« Reply #261 on: August 03, 2022, 02:59:51 AM »

I like and respect you Billy and cannot abide by racism.  No one who has not been subjected to racism knows what it is really like but I have to say that the way we are dealing with it now is just tipping the scale the other way and will end in conflict.  We need to be less divisive, build bridges and take on board that we are all the same and skin colour is unimportant - we are all of mixed origin so made of the same stuff.  So far as I can tell there is no racism involved in the disgusting way some people behave in 'fandom'.  I could claim there was sexism but I won't because those who behave badly just use whatever weapon is available at the time.  Those people are just nasty.  They also cannot actually defend their stance so they just side track the argument.  I'm not sure that what was said here was intended to be racist - it seemed like frustration at the way we are dealing with things these days, making it worse instead of better but if it was intended let's not let them side track the point and just move along.

Suffice to say Brian is not a trained seal and does not need handlers.  The people who support him are there to help him with his health issues and to fend off the idiots he wants to keep away from.  I suspect that the source of this way of thinking is one of those who is being kept away and they don't like it.

I was referring to something completely unrelated , not even online , where I got into it with someone at the store who was calling a child a racist slur. I intervened. I was then told by another shopper to take my ďwokeĒ politics elsewhere and starts going on slurring various different groups. So when I brought that up in my post , I was referring to the fact that I got ganged up on for standing up to someone targeting a small child, the fact that we as a society have gotten to this point. This is the world I brought my kids into, and in a place where weíre considered the enemy. This guyís post history, it was definitely intended. Anyway itís done, heís gone and Iím still here.

Quote
Suffice to say Brian is not a trained seal and does not need handlers.  The people who support him are there to help him with his health issues and to fend off the idiots he wants to keep away from.  I suspect that the source of this way of thinking is one of those who is being kept away and they don't like it.


I definitely agree. The stuff I saw on Facebook earlier (canít remember which one of the groups it was, if it was the one you all are in with me or not) but Iím glad that post got removed, or maybe they thought better of it and deleted it. That was tacky and not from a place of concern at all (rather a place of hatred) , and worse than anything Iíve ever read on any beach boys related forum (including PMs). I mean, we all know where the source of this all started, but these people have gotten to the point where even our old cape-wearing friend would spit out his tea in disgust.
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ďMy cape is at the dry cleaners,Ē he explained.

Iím writing a book of online BB fandom. Itís called ďNever Trust Anyone Who Spends More Time Reading Signatures Than BathingĒ.  Itís sure to sell a million copies in January!

Howís that view from the nosebleed seats?
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« Reply #262 on: August 03, 2022, 04:00:18 AM »

The comments about BB fandom rather remind me of a certain person on the EH board, one of whose footnotes is 'I'm writing a history of online BB fandom: it's called "Fuckwits, Shitweasels and a Sprinkling of Fools".' I'm assuming it's an autobiography lol! (Credit to my sister who came up with this.)

I'd posted a few times on this site, nearly always getting into various arguments. But I was accused by above person of 'giving Mike grief' because I'd said I don't like his presentation and quoted his 'show in two halves' comment (he meant 1st and 2nd but perhaps a Freudian slip).

There had been some nasty comments about Brian solo fans choosing to ignore various things, with which my sister took issue and commented on how ironic the EH name was. The response to this from His Nibs was something like 'Post somewhere else. There's the door' and when she deleted her account 'Mission accomplished'.  I replied that I was leaving before being banned for life. I'm sure he got the reference.

With so many really nasty people in the world, there really is no need to feel prejudice based on colour, class or creed! Save your ire for those who richly deserve it!

Apologies for the rant.

No need to apologizeÖIím sorry you had to go through that. Youíre more than welcome here.

My apologies to everyone for earlier. I was referring to something I saw on Facebook and that guy I guess thought I was talking about him. But based on post history I guess it was pot kettle black. Itís been handled.

Thanks Billy for your words. No need for you to apologise either. 'Better out than in' as my Grandma used to say works for venting as well as for something disagreeable one has eaten! And in my case for leaving a certain message board!
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« Reply #263 on: August 03, 2022, 04:11:49 AM »

I like a lot an extended definition of racism as "hating people for personal features they could not help".
In this sense, "ableism" is one of the worst kinds of racism, because it targets the weak and helpless.
I think it's the very dark source of the issues many people have with Brian. They naturally resent Brian's status, of being a person with mental issues BUT considered a genius, and end aggressively shilling for his diametrical opposite, alpha male Mike Love, to an extent Mike himself's popularity is damaged by the natural pushback to that agenda.
That without challenged Brian's genius all this would have never existed is conveniently minimised ("What did he do after 1967?").


« Last Edit: August 03, 2022, 04:19:48 AM by Zenobi » Logged
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« Reply #264 on: August 03, 2022, 04:16:54 AM »

Good point. I absolutely believe ableism does play a part in it. Mikeís ďwell Iím the normal oneĒ attitude he carried for years carried over to a certain segment of the fan base. It went from Brian and the five assholes, to swing wildly the other way. Truth is , they were a band full of geniuses, and Bruce .
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Iím writing a book of online BB fandom. Itís called ďNever Trust Anyone Who Spends More Time Reading Signatures Than BathingĒ.  Itís sure to sell a million copies in January!

Howís that view from the nosebleed seats?
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« Reply #265 on: August 03, 2022, 04:27:04 AM »

Imho the Beach Boys were a genius group made of a genius, a near genius (Denny) and four extremely talented people. If we consider their singing prowess, they were six geniuses, particularly Carl.
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« Reply #266 on: August 03, 2022, 05:35:37 AM »

On the other hand if anyone raises a question about  Brian's wellbeing, some will call them misinformed or conspiracy theorists.

The problem isn't that people raise questions. The issue arrises when people make libelous claims that implicate almost every person in Brian's current orbit right now. Those claims don't logically conform to the reality of Brian's situation.

Perhaps I'm wrong, but I don't think that any sane fan would defend improper care of Brian. Jon Stebbin's FAQ book raised a huge red flag for me in that passage about his witnessing Brian being talked down to harshly (or was he being straight up yelled at?) backstage within the last decade (or two? I can't remember when he witnessed that). Didn't Carnie Wilson supposedly call Melinda "Me-Landy"? Didn't Brian lay down on stage in the middle of a concert many years ago?

I don't think we're ignorant of the issues that have come up over the years regarding Brian. Those issues are concerning. However, taken as a whole, for every one concerning issue that pops up Brian has seemingly 1000+ good days. If Brian were being forced to tour against his will (and well-being), how could any of Brian's best friends not know about it? Wouldn't his family be speaking out daily about it?

I brought up Carnie's supposed "Me-Landy" quote. Here's a verified quote from Carnie just 8 years ago regarding Brian: "(He) is doing Ok. He is laying back a little bit, which is about time. I want him to do that. He has been on the road for 15 years, and he has continued to do whatever he wants. I like to make him dinner and hang out... I want him to slow down."

That's his own daughter saying that Brian does whatever he wants...if he were being forced to tour I doubt his daughter would say anything to the contrary about that very issue. In this quote she is worried about his well-being, but not because of some nefarious outside force controlling Brian.

I brought up what Jon Stebbin's witnessed, and I'm not defending that incident at all (or disputing what Jon saw). However, if such abuse were an ongoing thing I think we would have heard about other incidents by now. You know how many people roam backstage and around dressing rooms before these shows? Over the last 25 years (over 800 shows) I think we would've heard something other than what was in Stebbin's book.

I think every fan is currently concerned with Brian's well-being and we're all hoping for the best possible outcome regarding this situation...which is basically, we're all hoping that whatever is decided regarding Brian's life/touring/etc that he is happy and comfortable.
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Ever want to hear some Beach Boys songs mashed up together like The Beatles' 'LOVE' album? Check out my mix!
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« Reply #267 on: August 03, 2022, 05:48:58 AM »

Imho the Beach Boys were a genius group made of a genius, a near genius (Denny) and four extremely talented people. If we consider their singing prowess, they were six geniuses, particularly Carl.

I'm all for equal opportunity but I don't believe the band members were equally talented. Brian's songwriting and arranging talent were truly exceptional and he had a beautiful voice too. Dennis was also a gifted songwriter and his voice was good at first and even later on he used it so emotively. Carl had a wonderful voice, Al's voice less unusual but remained good. Mike's deep vocals were an important part of the mix and he wrote some good lyrics.  There's no need for jealousy ('I'm a genius too, Brian') - they all made a good living out of the music and whilst Brian may have got more of the acclaim, he also had some burdens to carry, and they were not just of his own making.

I don't like 'ableism' either. I've referred to the treatment of Brian as gaslighting before and I think that's a fair description. Brian did have mental health issues, exacerbated by his drug use no doubt, but some used this to excuse controlling, unethical and inhumane behaviour and to cast doubt on any ideas of Brian's of which they didn't approve.

Brian himself said 'I'm not a genius. I'm just a hardworking guy' and during the break in Smiley Smile's 'Wonderful',  we hear 'Don't think you're God. Just be a cool guy.' The genius label put huge pressure on Brian and sometimes I think his modesty was defensive.

From an Uncut article about bootlegs: ''How does Wilson feel today, Uncut wonders, about people first hearing Smile on bootlegs? ďWell, I donít know if they liked them or not,Ē he replies uneasily. ďI mean, do you think they did?Ē Oh, absolutely! ďAre you sure? Really?Ē Yes, really Ė they loved them. ďOK, then.Ē Besides, didnít the bootlegs help to establish Smileís Ďspecialnessí, creating the romantic notion of a long-lost masterpiece that would blow peopleís minds if it ever came out? ďNo!Ē he guffaws, and pauses. ďBut I guess it did, though, right?Ē'
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« Reply #268 on: August 03, 2022, 05:57:03 AM »

On the other hand if anyone raises a question about  Brian's wellbeing, some will call them misinformed or conspiracy theorists.

The problem isn't that people raise questions. The issue arrises when people make libelous claims that implicate almost every person in Brian's current orbit right now. Those claims don't logically conform to the reality of Brian's situation.

Perhaps I'm wrong, but I don't think that any sane fan would defend improper care of Brian. Jon Stebbin's FAQ book raised a huge red flag for me in that passage about his witnessing Brian being talked down to harshly (or was he being straight up yelled at?) backstage within the last decade (or two? I can't remember when he witnessed that). Didn't Carnie Wilson supposedly call Melinda "Me-Landy"? Didn't Brian lay down on stage in the middle of a concert many years ago?

I don't think we're ignorant of the issues that have come up over the years regarding Brian. Those issues are concerning. However, taken as a whole, for every one concerning issue that pops up Brian has seemingly 1000+ good days. If Brian were being forced to tour against his will (and well-being), how could any of Brian's best friends not know about it? Wouldn't his family be speaking out daily about it?

I brought up Carnie's supposed "Me-Landy" quote. Here's a verified quote from Carnie just 8 years ago regarding Brian: "(He) is doing Ok. He is laying back a little bit, which is about time. I want him to do that. He has been on the road for 15 years, and he has continued to do whatever he wants. I like to make him dinner and hang out... I want him to slow down."

That's his own daughter saying that Brian does whatever he wants...if he were being forced to tour I doubt his daughter would say anything to the contrary about that very issue. In this quote she is worried about his well-being, but not because of some nefarious outside force controlling Brian.

I brought up what Jon Stebbin's witnessed, and I'm not defending that incident at all (or disputing what Jon saw). However, if such abuse were an ongoing thing I think we would have heard about other incidents by now. You know how many people roam backstage and around dressing rooms before these shows? Over the last 25 years (over 800 shows) I think we would've heard something other than what was in Stebbin's book.

I think every fan is currently concerned with Brian's well-being and we're all hoping for the best possible outcome regarding this situation...which is basically, we're all hoping that whatever is decided regarding Brian's life/touring/etc that he is happy and comfortable.

Of course Brian was controlled in the past by certain unethical people and maybe guilt-tripped into certain decisions too. As for Carnie's alleged comment, I think it's possible to read too much into it. Families have disagreements and when there has been a divorce and re-marriage, perhaps sometimes there will be personality clashes. Such is life. We must remember that some people who are claiming that Brian is being controlled have their own agenda. I'm not referring to Carnie of course.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2022, 06:18:32 AM by Angela Jones » Logged
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« Reply #269 on: August 03, 2022, 06:28:24 AM »

I don't think it is just about ableism.  I think there are those, who shall remain nameless, that actually blame Brian for his own mental illness - they frame it that it was his drug taking which caused his illness and therefore his own fault when the truth is that he wanted to experiment for the creative impetus it gave him and later was self medicating. But Brian had problems from his youth due to childhood trauma and the drugs Landy prescribed didn't help either - it wasn't just the non-prescription drugs which caused the problem. The only way to be critical of someone with mental illness, who you deeply envy, is to make them bad.  As Ang said it's gaslighting.  IMHO they also did that with Smile - it wasn't put out because Brian is mad and on drugs - though well enough to produce another album for them and them arguing over the material and Brian losing his collaborator because of it, had nothing to do with it.

If they were all geniuses they would all have been able to produce successful albums. 
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« Reply #270 on: August 03, 2022, 07:21:13 AM »

If they were all geniuses they would all have been able to produce successful albums. 

Iíll have more to say on this all soon, but Iíd like to point out that thereís not a lot of correlation between these guysí talent and their ability to generate and release solo albums. Dennisís lack of additional album, well, I think we can see how that didnít happen, and it wasnít for lack of talent to make the material. With the other guys, I think Carl clearly just set aside doing material (group or solo) much and did the touring thing. Arguably lazy perhaps, but I have little doubt that there are quality Carl songs we havenít heard yet. It was a similar deal with Al; he did the touring thing. Couple that with his infamous ability to over-workshop stuff for years if not decades, and I think the same thing applies. He surely has multiple albumís worth of some good material.

The reason we never got more solo albums from these guys has much more to do with lack of name recognition (and thus ability to get record deals), lethargy or laziness (or whatever one wants to call it) regarding touring and making money that way instead of schlepping in the studio, and lack of logistical/organizational skills to make things happen.

Iím not saying they all had dozens of A+ solo albums just waiting to be released. But their vocal/writing/producing talents were easily sufficient that all of these guys could have easily made a half dozen solo albums over the last 30-40 years if not for other factors including those listed above.
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« Reply #271 on: August 03, 2022, 07:27:58 AM »

My "genius" assessment for all the Beach Boys is in the context of their singing. Their harmony is unparalleled. I absolutely love the "barbershop-gospel" groups of the Thirties, starting from the Golden Gate Quartet, but the Beach Boys manage to out-harmony even them, imho. Mike is superb. Bruce is, too. I may not be one of their staunchest fans, out of that context, but in that context they are pure gold, like the Wilson brothers and Al.

Of course, I am a bit biased in favour of the Beach Boys. After all, they made my favourite music ever. Smiley
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« Reply #272 on: August 03, 2022, 08:12:30 AM »

If they were all geniuses they would all have been able to produce successful albums. 

Iíll have more to say on this all soon, but Iíd like to point out that thereís not a lot of correlation between these guysí talent and their ability to generate and release solo albums. Dennisís lack of additional album, well, I think we can see how that didnít happen, and it wasnít for lack of talent to make the material. With the other guys, I think Carl clearly just set aside doing material (group or solo) much and did the touring thing. Arguably lazy perhaps, but I have little doubt that there are quality Carl songs we havenít heard yet. It was a similar deal with Al; he did the touring thing. Couple that with his infamous ability to over-workshop stuff for years if not decades, and I think the same thing applies. He surely has multiple albumís worth of some good material.

The reason we never got more solo albums from these guys has much more to do with lack of name recognition (and thus ability to get record deals), lethargy or laziness (or whatever one wants to call it) regarding touring and making money that way instead of schlepping in the studio, and lack of logistical/organizational skills to make things happen.

Iím not saying they all had dozens of A+ solo albums just waiting to be released. But their vocal/writing/producing talents were easily sufficient that all of these guys could have easily made a half dozen solo albums over the last 30-40 years if not for other factors including those listed above.


I think the point was more about producing successful Beach Boys records, not solo efforts, after Brian backed out of his role as producer/arranger/writer/performer in the 60's that made all the hits. Truth be told, nothing ever came close to what they did when Brian was the main guy at the helm, and the most success they did have after the 60's was Kokomo which was Terry Melcher producing. Carl did some great work for the band, but nothing ever had the same magic as when Brian was making the records, and it definitely didn't sell anywhere near what it had under Brian's direction.
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« Reply #273 on: August 03, 2022, 08:46:40 AM »

If they were all geniuses they would all have been able to produce successful albums.  

Iíll have more to say on this all soon, but Iíd like to point out that thereís not a lot of correlation between these guysí talent and their ability to generate and release solo albums. Dennisís lack of additional album, well, I think we can see how that didnít happen, and it wasnít for lack of talent to make the material. With the other guys, I think Carl clearly just set aside doing material (group or solo) much and did the touring thing. Arguably lazy perhaps, but I have little doubt that there are quality Carl songs we havenít heard yet. It was a similar deal with Al; he did the touring thing. Couple that with his infamous ability to over-workshop stuff for years if not decades, and I think the same thing applies. He surely has multiple albumís worth of some good material.

The reason we never got more solo albums from these guys has much more to do with lack of name recognition (and thus ability to get record deals), lethargy or laziness (or whatever one wants to call it) regarding touring and making money that way instead of schlepping in the studio, and lack of logistical/organizational skills to make things happen.

Iím not saying they all had dozens of A+ solo albums just waiting to be released. But their vocal/writing/producing talents were easily sufficient that all of these guys could have easily made a half dozen solo albums over the last 30-40 years if not for other factors including those listed above.


I think the point was more about producing successful Beach Boys records, not solo efforts, after Brian backed out of his role as producer/arranger/writer/performer in the 60's that made all the hits. Truth be told, nothing ever came close to what they did when Brian was the main guy at the helm, and the most success they did have after the 60's was Kokomo which was Terry Melcher producing. Carl did some great work for the band, but nothing ever had the same magic as when Brian was making the records, and it definitely didn't sell anywhere near what it had under Brian's direction.

True, I was looking more at overall productivity than looking at successful solo albums. I have a lower bar I suppose when it comes to rating solo albums in some cases, and in most cases if they can get the album released and it has some good moments, I rate that as a relative success. Carl's albums for instance are kind of bland, but I rate them as successful in that it kept him busy, he sounded good, some of the songs were solid, and it showed a path he could have continued to follow and evolve. Same with Al's solo album. Even some of Mike's stuff. Certainly Dennis. Brian has of course been far more productive than the rest.

But, then we also have to say, depending on how we define success, that very, very few of any their solo albums, including Brian's, have been hugely successful critically or commercially. Some have done well with critics, and some in retrospect have seen greater appreciation. A few have had decent chart showings. And of course nobody ever generated a hit single. The closest they probably came to that was Celebration's "Almost Summer."

I think, especially as time goes by, and especially as we get into delving into the archives of 70s material, that it doesn't do anybody a lot of favors to downplay the talents of the other members. I think it's totally possible to subscribe to Dennis's assertion that "Brian is the Beach Boys", and also, without just blowing smoke and stroking egos in an unwarranted fashion, look at what we can maybe call some "genius aspects" to the other members as well. I don't think anybody, short of sometimes Mike and sort of Bruce, think anybody in the group's orb has ever been as talented as Brian. But they brought some genius moments to the table. Howie Edelson has recently spoken a lot about Mike's bass part on "San Miguel", and I think he has a number of moments like that. I think all of the guys do.

I think all of the guys, especially Dennis, Carl, and Al; their biggest flaw was how much they didn't tap into their talent and genius, and or didn't follow through on it. Al has had an amazing voice for decades, and he did almost NOTHING with it after being s**tcanned from the touring band in 1998. He should have had five albums out by 2012. Carl should have been asking Tom Petty to co-write stuff and convince Rick Rubin to produce him. Dennis obviously needed to get relatively clean and he could have produced a lot more.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2022, 08:49:03 AM by HeyJude » Logged

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« Reply #274 on: August 03, 2022, 09:19:30 AM »

In a way, the Beach Boys were, both collectively and individually, victims of their own success. Their early 60s hits were so popular, as was the image that went with them, that the public were less interested in supporting solo efforts that didn't include that successful formula. Even attempts by the band as a whole to get past that summer song image didn't work as effectively.

I don't doubt that all of them could have produced solo albums. TBH I don't think Mike's song writing ability is particularly good but his distinctive vocals would have perhaps appealed had he chosen the right kind of songs. Carl's and Al's vocals were excellent and Bruce had a solo career before the Beach Boys.

Dennis was, IMO, the band's other great talent. He wasn't driven by his music in the way that Brian was, and didn't have the discipline perhaps. I wonder if the Wilson brothers had stayed together and gone their own way they might have been able to create some interesting new records. It was not to be.
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