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Author Topic: Pet Squares #3 The Surfer Girl album just released on youTube  (Read 2825 times)
DonnyL
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« Reply #25 on: May 13, 2021, 04:33:04 PM »

What’s funny is the Murry was essentially bragging about how he was an integral part of the sound of the early records by (oddly) describing something any staff engineer could do. Not to discount the skills of an engineer but ... it’s kinda like saying “I was the guy tapping my foot to the metronome!” Sure it’s needed but it’s also not what made The Beach Boys successful. Not to discredit the teams that he was referring to either- clearly a team effort at play but also clearly something that was essentially based on Brian Wilson as a visionary.

I don’t think compression was used much on West Coast records in the ‘60s, except on vocals. Bones Howe mentioned in an old interview that there was no compression used on the Association “Windy”, except the vocals. Surprising to me was that he mentioned they did not use limiting on the 45 master either- possibly a couple dbs here and there.

There are some notable exceptions of course. I know the Monkees Pisces Aquarius record has a lot of 176 limiting on there.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2021, 04:35:10 PM by DonnyL » Logged

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« Reply #26 on: May 13, 2021, 04:43:59 PM »

I don’t think compression was used much on West Coast records in the ‘60s, except on vocals. Bones Howe mentioned in an old interview that there was no compression used on the Association “Windy”, except the vocals. Surprising to me was that he mentioned they did not use limiting on the 45 master either- possibly a couple dbs here and there.

There are some notable exceptions of course. I know the Monkees Pisces Aquarius record has a lot of 176 limiting on there.

Yeah, it's too bad that the engineers are mostly not with us anymore, because it would have been a really interesting question to pose across a wide sample size of engineers working in LA in the 3 and 4 track era, attitudes towards using compression.  Yet another component of the 3- and 4- and a little bit of the 8-track eras that is missed because it's so alien and unintuitive to the true multi-track recordist.

Also interesting that there would be 176s on a Monkee's record, considering how great those RCA BA compressors are.
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« Reply #27 on: May 13, 2021, 05:18:08 PM »

Once "Mr. Tambourine Man" and "Turn Turn Turn" became smash hit records for the Byrds, featuring a super-over compressed sound on the lead electric guitar as I mentioned in my earlier posts, a lot of records also began featuring over-compressed electric guitars. And also, that sound was being considered a "West Coast Sound", and if it was selling records like those Byrds singles, other records and producers went for it too.

One very notable example is "Nowhere Man", where the Beatles were consciously going for a Brian Wilson/Byrds sound both on the production and the song itself. Harrison and Lennon were now playing Fender guitars, which was a big shift for them, and Harrison's solo on Nowhere Man is literally compressed to death, much like McGuinn's was on those Byrds records.

If you take this in the years 1965-66, that's when things started to change in terms of compression and its use. Of course there would be old-school engineers who still did it their way, but when you have clients saying "we want that sound", whether it's Mr Tambourine Man or Nowhere Man or any number of other records with that West Coast Sound from that era, they'd have to do it or they'd lose the client to a studio or engineer that would.

Speaking of The Monkees, that over-compressed guitar sound goes back to the very first notes anyone heard from The Monkees in 1966, even before the TV show had its debut in September '66. "Last Train To Clarksville" features an intro from Louis Shelton's Telecaster with massive amounts of compression...those opening notes defined that record and became the hook that drew listeners in. Louis himself said after that became a radio hit, his phone began to ring for other session work once calls were made and they found out in LA who had played that guitar lick. And likewise, that massively compressed guitar sound also became a thing among those in the biz chasing a hit record. So literally the first notes anyone ever heard on a Monkees record in '66 featured heavy compression on electric guitar, and it became a thing.

Worth noting too is if you have the "Headquarters Sessions" Monkees set, there is a track where you can hear Hank Cicalo dialing in the compressor setting on Mike Nesmith's electric 12-string, and I've actually used that example to demonstrate the difference between not using compression and heavy compression when recording electric guitars, specifically electric 12's. Once Cicalo dials it in, boom - That's the signature sound.

So I disagree that compression wasn't being used  often, but it does come down to an issue of timing, as in *when* did these different studios and engineers start using it. If we're talking 1964, then yes, it was rare except perhaps on some vocal tracks. But after the folk-rock boom with Tambourine Man, that sound was everywhere and engineers eventually had to use it.

Then bring in Geoff Emerick and Revolver, and I've heard old-school engineers who had clients at the time that album had come out being asked for that sound, and the reply was "but that's wrong, that's not how to record drums, guitars, etc...". So I'll always come back to Revolver (and later Pepper, especially the use of compression on Ringo's drums) as the benchmark album that literally changed the game in terms of recording rock music. And the way Emerick used and deliberately over-used compression was a big part of it, even if the old-schoolers thought it was "wrong" to cut tracks which sounded like that. One of the perks of being an innovator is those who think you're wrong to rewrite the rules are the ones who end up following your lead eventually, and that's what happened in the world of recording rock and pop music after 1966-67.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2021, 05:19:17 PM by guitarfool2002 » Logged

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« Reply #28 on: May 13, 2021, 05:22:16 PM »

Once "Mr. Tambourine Man" and "Turn Turn Turn" became smash hit records for the Byrds, featuring a super-over compressed sound on the lead electric guitar as I mentioned in my earlier posts, a lot of records also began featuring over-compressed electric guitars. And also, that sound was being considered a "West Coast Sound", and if it was selling records like those Byrds singles, other records and producers went for it too.

One very notable example is "Nowhere Man", where the Beatles were consciously going for a Brian Wilson/Byrds sound both on the production and the song itself. Harrison and Lennon were now playing Fender guitars, which was a big shift for them, and Harrison's solo on Nowhere Man is literally compressed to death, much like McGuinn's was on those Byrds records.

If you take this in the years 1965-66, that's when things started to change in terms of compression and its use. Of course there would be old-school engineers who still did it their way, but when you have clients saying "we want that sound", whether it's Mr Tambourine Man or Nowhere Man or any number of other records with that West Coast Sound from that era, they'd have to do it or they'd lose the client to a studio or engineer that would.

Speaking of The Monkees, that over-compressed guitar sound goes back to the very first notes anyone heard from The Monkees in 1966, even before the TV show had its debut in September '66. "Last Train To Clarksville" features an intro from Louis Shelton's Telecaster with massive amounts of compression...those opening notes defined that record and became the hook that drew listeners in. Louis himself said after that became a radio hit, his phone began to ring for other session work once calls were made and they found out in LA who had played that guitar lick. And likewise, that massively compressed guitar sound also became a thing among those in the biz chasing a hit record. So literally the first notes anyone ever heard on a Monkees record in '66 featured heavy compression on electric guitar, and it became a thing.

Worth noting too is if you have the "Headquarters Sessions" Monkees set, there is a track where you can hear Hank Cicalo dialing in the compressor setting on Mike Nesmith's electric 12-string, and I've actually used that example to demonstrate the difference between not using compression and heavy compression when recording electric guitars, specifically electric 12's. Once Cicalo dials it in, boom - That's the signature sound.

So I disagree that compression wasn't being used  often, but it does come down to an issue of timing, as in *when* did these different studios and engineers start using it. If we're talking 1964, then yes, it was rare except perhaps on some vocal tracks. But after the folk-rock boom with Tambourine Man, that sound was everywhere and engineers eventually had to use it.

Then bring in Geoff Emerick and Revolver, and I've heard old-school engineers who had clients at the time that album had come out being asked for that sound, and the reply was "but that's wrong, that's not how to record drums, guitars, etc...". So I'll always come back to Revolver (and later Pepper, especially the use of compression on Ringo's drums) as the benchmark album that literally changed the game in terms of recording rock music. And the way Emerick used and deliberately over-used compression was a big part of it, even if the old-schoolers thought it was "wrong" to cut tracks which sounded like that. One of the perks of being an innovator is those who think you're wrong to rewrite the rules are the ones who end up following your lead eventually, and that's what happened in the world of recording rock and pop music after 1966-67.

Very interesting.

Also noted that being a Beatles fan myself, Harrison played the Fender guitar throughout the song, but the solo itself was both Harrison AND Lennon. It did sound much more prominent than the other lines too so it makes sense.
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« Reply #29 on: May 13, 2021, 05:30:43 PM »

Another interesting little thing about RCA and guitar compression -- I think it's really, really interesting that Dance Dance Dance is the only Beach Boys song to really feature something approaching the classic LA compressed guitar sound, and their only track cut at RCA.  And it was recorded a few months before the Byrds (who of course recorded not at RCA, but at a very similar facility at CBS), and well before Last Train.  Chuck never did guitars like that.
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« Reply #30 on: May 13, 2021, 05:31:04 PM »

Back to Murry Wilson and his over-taking of credit for the band's success and their hit records...

I think it's easy to sum up. Brian Wilson knew how to make hit records, Murry Wilson did not. If anyone would doubt that, listen to the Beach Boys' discography on Capitol from 62-66. As soon as Murry was out, Brian's records started to grow amazingly in sequence from one to the next, and he had a magic touch with producing great sounding records that others in the industry knew and recognized. Brian's track record includes a body of work that is still considered among the greatest pop and rock music ever recorded, and what exactly is Murry's musical legacy? The records got better and better after Murry was out, and Brian didn't have Murry in his ear constantly nagging him about how his records should sound.

Confirmation of this also came from Hal Blaine in an interview. Hal said Murry would be telling Brian he should make records the way Lawrence Welk made records, "clean" records with a clean sound. What Murry perhaps didn't know is that Hal had done sessions for Lawrence Welk, and Lawrence would ask Hal about certain sounds on the records he was playing on, from producers like Spector and Brian, because Lawrence wanted his music to appeal to younger record buyers and he wanted the sounds that were selling.

So it's a twist of fate or irony or whatever that Murry was telling Brian he should cut records like Lawrence Welk, and Lawrence Welk himself was asking musicians like Hal Blaine how Brian was getting those sounds on Beach Boys records.

Murry in many ways just didn't get it, and he took it out on his son in some truly pathetic ways. Not much more can be said about it.
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« Reply #31 on: May 13, 2021, 05:44:32 PM »

Another interesting little thing about RCA and guitar compression -- I think it's really, really interesting that Dance Dance Dance is the only Beach Boys song to really feature something approaching the classic LA compressed guitar sound, and their only track cut at RCA.  And it was recorded a few months before the Byrds (who of course recorded not at RCA, but at a very similar facility at CBS), and well before Last Train.  Chuck never did guitars like that.

That is very interesting, yes. We can trace the lineage leading up to "Mr Tambourine Man" and that signature guitar sound (again, it's still amazing to me that they chained *three* compressors together to get it!). McGuinn says the groove came from Brian's "Don't Worry Baby", and with Terry Melcher producing, a guy who had been observing Brian produce hands-on, no doubt the influence was there. If they took the groove AND the 12-string guitar sound from Brian's productions, it makes sense. Then the whole notion of electric 12-string coming from McGuinn seeing Harrison play one in the Hard Days Night film comes full circle when The Beatles and Harrison in particular took influence from both McGuinn/Melcher and Brian when they cut Nowhere Man and repeatedly compressed Harrison's solo lines to get that same sound.

If some sonic/production origins were pulled from Dance Dance Dance, it would not be surprising. And it is fascinating that the song was cut at a different studio where the engineers perhaps had a different way of doing things than Chuck or most of Putnam's guys at that time. Was there a frame of reference for that sound on Dance Dance Dance, or were they trying to go for the George Harrison sound from that time leading up to those sessions?

Another question: Does Harrison's intro to "You Can't Do That" or any of his earliest uses of the Rickenbacker 12 sound compressed? If it were, I don't hear it being overused as an effect to any degree near what McGuinn did, or what they did on Nowhere Man. 
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« Reply #32 on: May 13, 2021, 07:48:26 PM »

The show is back up for what it's worth...surge on over there and watch!

https://youtu.be/-iDFkXOV1Fw
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« Reply #33 on: May 14, 2021, 03:58:51 AM »

The show is back up for what it's worth...surge on over there and watch!

https://youtu.be/-iDFkXOV1Fw


I'm finished watching it. Just like the last episode, really enjoyable and insightful! I'm looking forward to the "Little Deuce Coupe" album. That one gets overlooked quite a bit, but there's some very strong material on it. Wondering if you will go into "Cherry, cherry Coupe"'s chorus where Mike is rapping underneath the backgroundvoices, something that Brian would later do in "Cabin essence" as well.
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« Reply #34 on: May 14, 2021, 05:20:19 AM »

The show is back up for what it's worth...surge on over there and watch!

https://youtu.be/-iDFkXOV1Fw


I'm finished watching it. Just like the last episode, really enjoyable and insightful! I'm looking forward to the "Little Deuce Coupe" album. That one gets overlooked quite a bit, but there's some very strong material on it. Wondering if you will go into "Cherry, cherry Coupe"'s chorus where Mike is rapping underneath the backgroundvoices, something that Brian would later do in "Cabin essence" as well.

Mike would also do that under the choruses of "Kiss Me, Baby" ("Kiss a little bit, fight a little bit").
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« Reply #35 on: May 14, 2021, 10:57:42 AM »

The show is back up for what it's worth...surge on over there and watch!

https://youtu.be/-iDFkXOV1Fw


I'm finished watching it. Just like the last episode, really enjoyable and insightful! I'm looking forward to the "Little Deuce Coupe" album. That one gets overlooked quite a bit, but there's some very strong material on it. Wondering if you will go into "Cherry, cherry Coupe"'s chorus where Mike is rapping underneath the backgroundvoices, something that Brian would later do in "Cabin essence" as well.

Mike would also do that under the choruses of "Kiss Me, Baby" ("Kiss a little bit, fight a little bit").

I never noticed that part until Brian isolated the vocals in the Endless Harmony documentary.
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« Reply #36 on: May 14, 2021, 07:42:39 PM »

*Sorry, I think Nesmith said it was an 1176, and I assumed 176 because I was unaware of the 1176 being even available in 1967.

In any case, I have actually corresponded with Bones Howe in the past, and read old interviews with him. He did not use compression on anything but vocals from what I gave gathered, and probably a little on mixdown.

The compression angle is likely variable depending on the studio, engineer/producer, artist, and really just limitations of the day. I think it’s safe to say sessions which were recorded mostly live on the west coast did not feature much compression in general, other than vocals during the 4-track (and into 8-track a bit) era. I personally think you can kind of tell by listening, but the reality is the various elements were not really patched individually much in those days, and I don’t imagine studios had more than a couple limiters on hand.

This is to say I think the Byrds guitar sound thing was the exception rather than the rule. Though I do think the Monkees were maybe a little early to get into the Beatles-style of making records. Lots of UK records seem to have tons of compression everywhere, likely during each bounce stage etc. By 1968, we hear this happening on US records too and the sound begins to change. I’m thinking of things like Lemon Pipers “My Green Tambourine” as an example where this is really audible. Drums are limited to hell on Del Shannon’s “Charles Westover” record (1968).
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« Reply #37 on: May 14, 2021, 08:02:11 PM »

And not to be pedantic, but I think it’s worth differentiating compression and limiting. To me, the use of the limiter changing the sound and vibe of West Coast records in the late 1960s corresponds with the rise of the use of the 1176 unit. IMO this was a result of people chasing the Beatles sound and style of recording more than the Byrds’ guitar sound.
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« Reply #38 on: May 14, 2021, 08:17:32 PM »

And not to be pedantic, but I think it’s worth differentiating compression and limiting. To me, the use of the limiter changing the sound and vibe of West Coast records in the late 1960s corresponds with the rise of the use of the 1176 unit. IMO this was a result of people chasing the Beatles sound and style of recording more than the Byrds’ guitar sound.

Totally fair, and I agree that that guitar sound was an exception up till the time it wasn't, as you say.
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« Reply #39 on: May 15, 2021, 12:31:27 AM »

*Sorry, I think Nesmith said it was an 1176, and I assumed 176 because I was unaware of the 1176 being even available in 1967.

In any case, I have actually corresponded with Bones Howe in the past, and read old interviews with him. He did not use compression on anything but vocals from what I gave gathered, and probably a little on mixdown.

The compression angle is likely variable depending on the studio, engineer/producer, artist, and really just limitations of the day. I think it’s safe to say sessions which were recorded mostly live on the west coast did not feature much compression in general, other than vocals during the 4-track (and into 8-track a bit) era. I personally think you can kind of tell by listening, but the reality is the various elements were not really patched individually much in those days, and I don’t imagine studios had more than a couple limiters on hand.

This is to say I think the Byrds guitar sound thing was the exception rather than the rule. Though I do think the Monkees were maybe a little early to get into the Beatles-style of making records. Lots of UK records seem to have tons of compression everywhere, likely during each bounce stage etc. By 1968, we hear this happening on US records too and the sound begins to change. I’m thinking of things like Lemon Pipers “My Green Tambourine” as an example where this is really audible. Drums are limited to hell on Del Shannon’s “Charles Westover” record (1968).

Back to "Last Train To Clarksville", that intro is classic compressed electric guitar. And whether it was an LA-2A limiting amplifier or an RCA compressor or whatever else, it's definitely what most hear as a compressed electric guitar. It would make sense even if that specific element of the guitar intro/hook were not a Beatles influence because the song itself was directly inspired by The Beatles, specifically "Paperback Writer" and a misheard lyric, and the "no no no" vocal tag was supposed to be their version of "yeah yeah yeah" - conscious choices by the writers. If the writers like Boyce and Hart were taking direct cues from Beatles songs to write Monkees songs, I'm sure the productions would have made similar nods to the sound of Beatles records (and other popular records of the time). Heck, the whole show was built on the concept of an American TV version of Hard Day's Night. I hear a lot of Beatles musical and production elements in the early Monkees albums, some subtle and some like Clarksville pretty obvious.

I do think it gets a little wonky though when you play something like that Mr Tambourine Man intro for most musician types and ask what is on that guitar sound, they'll say "compression", not "a limiting amplifier".  Even Rickenbacker built a compressor into McGuinn's signature model guitars, if they wanted to be truly accurate would they have billed it as a built-in limiting amplifier? It gets into tissue versus kleenex or ketchup versus catsup territory  Grin. I think Louis Shelton himself even said it was a lot of compression on his Clarksville guitar part, and again that would make sense since it was recorded at RCA.

I agree the variable is whoever happened to be recording the tracks at whichever studio, and Bones Howe may have had his way of recording and using outboard gear, but he was one out of dozens of engineers working LA studios in 1965-68. They all did things their own way to some degree. The 1176 made it more readily available across the industry perhaps, when UA began marketing and advertising it in '67, but compressors were being used on guitar in more cases than Tambourine Man, I disagree that record was an exception when you have any number of "folk rock" tracks and others after that record became a smash going for the same sound before the 1176. Clarksville just happened to be a prime example from the summer of '66, and I'm guessing that was patched into an RCA unit.
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« Reply #40 on: May 15, 2021, 06:39:35 AM »

Can you think of a handful of examples of heavily compressed guitar coming out of LA other than what we've discussed so far, Craig?  I can't think of much off the top of my head, and I just looked at the top 200 hits of 65 and 66 and didn't see much either.  I'm curious if you had some specific tracks in mind.
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« Reply #41 on: May 15, 2021, 07:40:51 AM »

The show is back up for what it's worth...surge on over there and watch!

https://youtu.be/-iDFkXOV1Fw


I'm finished watching it. Just like the last episode, really enjoyable and insightful! I'm looking forward to the "Little Deuce Coupe" album. That one gets overlooked quite a bit, but there's some very strong material on it. Wondering if you will go into "Cherry, cherry Coupe"'s chorus where Mike is rapping underneath the backgroundvoices, something that Brian would later do in "Cabin essence" as well.

Thanks for flagging that part; I never noticed it but will keep an ear out.  I'm actually not that familiar with the next few albums so it will be fun for me.
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« Reply #42 on: May 15, 2021, 11:40:54 AM »

Can you think of a handful of examples of heavily compressed guitar coming out of LA other than what we've discussed so far, Craig?  I can't think of much off the top of my head, and I just looked at the top 200 hits of 65 and 66 and didn't see much either.  I'm curious if you had some specific tracks in mind.

Look for the folk-rock genre to start, I'd say. After Tambourine Man and Turn Turn Turn became #1 hits in '65, that sound and specifically the guitar sound was very influential into 66 and 67. Whether it's on charting hits, I don't know, but across the folk-rock genre there were a lot of bands cutting records trying to sound like the Byrds and sell as many records.  Grin

The interesting element to consider too is exactly when did Putnam's LA-2A unit start making the rounds? I ask for a specific reason which I'll try to outline here. Mr Tambourine Man was cut at Columbia in January 1965. The engineer on that session at Columbia LA and also the subsequent early Byrds albums and singles was Ray Gerhardt. According to some accounts, the reason why they chained multiple compressors together to record McGuinn's guitar was because Gerhardt was concerned about a hot guitar signal overloading and blowing out his channels on the board. So they rigged up the multiple compressors (sorry, it was *2* in the chain and not 3) so Gerhardt could get a present sound and keep the levels under control on McGuinn's 12-string.

It's always been said that the LA-2A was the compressor used. Yet some sources say the LA-2A didn't really come out until 1965...so did Columbia and/or Ray Gerhardt specifically get a really early set of them to use or were they using another type of compressor? I think most just assumed it was the LA-2A based on what's been reported through the years, but if the song was cut in January '65 would the LA-2A have even been available outside Putnam's own studios that early? I'm just throwing out scenarios and dates there. Maybe it came out that early in '65, I'll have to look that up.

But some commentary out there also suggests Gerhardt would do this with the compressors regularly on sessions he worked, because he was worried about blowing out his channel strips on those boards. Which means who knows what else Ray was engineering at Columbia in the 60's where he did this, separate of course from the Byrds and McGuinn which became the signature sound of those records.


Just a note for Adam, and sorry for taking your thread in so many directions (hopefully more people who are reading are also watching and sharing your video too!), but Ray Gerhardt also engineered sessions for Evie Sands later in the 60's, and I know you've worked with her quite a bit. So I guess the discussion somehow gets related back to the original post and author!  Smiley
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« Reply #43 on: May 15, 2021, 03:58:50 PM »

Can you think of a handful of examples of heavily compressed guitar coming out of LA other than what we've discussed so far, Craig?  I can't think of much off the top of my head, and I just looked at the top 200 hits of 65 and 66 and didn't see much either.  I'm curious if you had some specific tracks in mind.
but across the folk-rock genre there were a lot of bands cutting records trying to sound like the Byrds and sell as many records.  Grin

Such as?  Everyone I can think of that starts in on the guitar sound isn't quite there yet as early as we're talking about.  After '67, sure, that sound is all over as the 8-track takes over, but before that I would still argue that it's an exceptional sound that is not at all common in LA.

As for the LA-2A AT CBS, I've always thought that these anecdotes about gear tend to default to the popular units in the teller's minds.  There's some pretty good photography of the CBS control room circa 66 and I've never seen anything looking like an LA-2A in there, and I've always assumed that the major label places used a lot of in-house equipment (Like RCA and their BA6A) and why not?  Huge budgets, in-house technicians?  Hard to know for sure, but I think it's pushing credulity that there was an LA-2A in CBS at that time.
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« Reply #44 on: May 15, 2021, 08:19:57 PM »

Can you think of a handful of examples of heavily compressed guitar coming out of LA other than what we've discussed so far, Craig?  I can't think of much off the top of my head, and I just looked at the top 200 hits of 65 and 66 and didn't see much either.  I'm curious if you had some specific tracks in mind.
but across the folk-rock genre there were a lot of bands cutting records trying to sound like the Byrds and sell as many records.  Grin

Such as?  Everyone I can think of that starts in on the guitar sound isn't quite there yet as early as we're talking about.  After '67, sure, that sound is all over as the 8-track takes over, but before that I would still argue that it's an exceptional sound that is not at all common in LA.

As for the LA-2A AT CBS, I've always thought that these anecdotes about gear tend to default to the popular units in the teller's minds.  There's some pretty good photography of the CBS control room circa 66 and I've never seen anything looking like an LA-2A in there, and I've always assumed that the major label places used a lot of in-house equipment (Like RCA and their BA6A) and why not?  Huge budgets, in-house technicians?  Hard to know for sure, but I think it's pushing credulity that there was an LA-2A in CBS at that time.

How about Buffalo Springfield? It sounds like they ran the entire mix through 4 compressors on parts of their first two albums! Not sure where the mixing was done but I believe much of that first album was cut and presumably mixed at Gold Star in 66.

Check out the interview McGuinn did with Vintage Guitar magazine. He touches on the 4 versus 8 track issues, and about the compression Ray had on his Rickenbacker, he simply says two compressors, doesn't mention a name brand.

The issue of budgets, I would suggest that Columbia being a corporate studio under the CBS Columbia umbrella would have the budget to get anything needed to get better sounds and draw clients, whereas the other studios we always discuss were independents with probably smaller budgets overall. Of course being under a parent company could be an negative too, as Geoff Emerick and the Beatles would attest to under EMI.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2021, 08:25:29 PM by guitarfool2002 » Logged

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« Reply #45 on: May 15, 2021, 08:51:22 PM »

Here's some useful evidence that I've been investigating CBS for over 15 years:

https://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/columbia-studios-sunset-and-gower.44945/

Yep, I started that thread in 2004!  But that's not the point -- the point is the great photos of the place.  I especially like seeing how they used that giant room for smaller pop ensembles.  And of course that huge, high resolution picture of Brian.

I wonder if Brian could have possibly imagined when he was making Surfer Girl that in a few short years he'd be ruling the Hollywood studios.
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« Reply #46 on: May 15, 2021, 09:10:21 PM »

The west coat folk rock type records that come to mind for me are Turtles, Mamas & Papas, PF Sloan/early Grass Roots, stuff like that. To me that is very much in line with the lack of compression on individual elements but used on vocals and final mix. Tracks like “You Baby”, “Where Were You When I Needed You”, etc. These are very different from the Byrds compressed 12 string sound, and to me that is the sort of standard or normal west coast ‘60s folk rock studio sound.

I think the Monkees would be th early example of a West Coast group beginning to sort of utilize techniques from the Beatles/UK. This was everywhere by 1968. I don’t hear much of it before 1968, and I don’t hear it as an across the board thing for the Monkees (just some key tracks).

I believe the technical distinction between limiting and compression is the ratio. But in practice, I hear compression as a slower, more gradual effect and limiting to be this sort of harder, tight sound. The LA2A is not an aggressive sounding piece of gear as far as my experience. The 1176 is pretty aggressive sounding. Though of course either can be used however anyone wants it to be. I don’t honestly know if the “compressor” on the Byrds 12 string sound is a limiter or not but it’s certainly a more extreme setting than say, anything you’ll hear on Forever Changes.
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« Reply #47 on: May 15, 2021, 09:25:07 PM »

The west coat folk rock type records that come to mind for me are Turtles, Mamas & Papas, PF Sloan/early Grass Roots, stuff like that. To me that is very much in line with the lack of compression on individual elements but used on vocals and final mix. Tracks like “You Baby”, “Where Were You When I Needed You”, etc. These are very different from the Byrds compressed 12 string sound, and to me that is the sort of standard or normal west coast ‘60s folk rock studio sound.

I think the Monkees would be th early example of a West Coast group beginning to sort of utilize techniques from the Beatles/UK. This was everywhere by 1968. I don’t hear much of it before 1968, and I don’t hear it as an across the board thing for the Monkees (just some key tracks).

I believe the technical distinction between limiting and compression is the ratio. But in practice, I hear compression as a slower, more gradual effect and limiting to be this sort of harder, tight sound. The LA2A is not an aggressive sounding piece of gear as far as my experience. The 1176 is pretty aggressive sounding. Though of course either can be used however anyone wants it to be. I don’t honestly know if the “compressor” on the Byrds 12 string sound is a limiter or not but it’s certainly a more extreme setting than say, anything you’ll hear on Forever Changes.


Yeah it's interesting that the 1176 is a more extreme sound when I feel like the 176 is such a beautiful light touch.  The LA-2A is really chill, you've gotta hit it so hard to make it sound like "an effect."  But the LA-3A is a little edgier.
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« Reply #48 on: May 15, 2021, 09:46:23 PM »

The west coat folk rock type records that come to mind for me are Turtles, Mamas & Papas, PF Sloan/early Grass Roots, stuff like that. To me that is very much in line with the lack of compression on individual elements but used on vocals and final mix. Tracks like “You Baby”, “Where Were You When I Needed You”, etc. These are very different from the Byrds compressed 12 string sound, and to me that is the sort of standard or normal west coast ‘60s folk rock studio sound.

I think the Monkees would be th early example of a West Coast group beginning to sort of utilize techniques from the Beatles/UK. This was everywhere by 1968. I don’t hear much of it before 1968, and I don’t hear it as an across the board thing for the Monkees (just some key tracks).

I believe the technical distinction between limiting and compression is the ratio. But in practice, I hear compression as a slower, more gradual effect and limiting to be this sort of harder, tight sound. The LA2A is not an aggressive sounding piece of gear as far as my experience. The 1176 is pretty aggressive sounding. Though of course either can be used however anyone wants it to be. I don’t honestly know if the “compressor” on the Byrds 12 string sound is a limiter or not but it’s certainly a more extreme setting than say, anything you’ll hear on Forever Changes.


Yeah it's interesting that the 1176 is a more extreme sound when I feel like the 176 is such a beautiful light touch.  The LA-2A is really chill, you've gotta hit it so hard to make it sound like "an effect."  But the LA-3A is a little edgier.

Yeh I guess they’re both “compressors” for the most part ... I think I’m really talking about the change to the 1176 type sound (along with more individual, separate tracks and less reverb) that seemed to take hold around 1968.
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« Reply #49 on: May 16, 2021, 02:47:22 AM »

The show is back up for what it's worth...surge on over there and watch!

https://youtu.be/-iDFkXOV1Fw


I'm finished watching it. Just like the last episode, really enjoyable and insightful! I'm looking forward to the "Little Deuce Coupe" album. That one gets overlooked quite a bit, but there's some very strong material on it. Wondering if you will go into "Cherry, cherry Coupe"'s chorus where Mike is rapping underneath the backgroundvoices, something that Brian would later do in "Cabin essence" as well.

Thanks for flagging that part; I never noticed it but will keep an ear out.  I'm actually not that familiar with the next few albums so it will be fun for me.


You'll have a ball. I just listened to the album yesterday in it's entirety. Compared to their previous albums the vocals are so much lusher and impressive. Also the inclusion of earlier tracks doesn't take away from the listening experience as those numbers add some street-credibility (no pun!) that is kinda on the backseat on songs like "No-go showboat" and "Ballad of ol' Betsy". It's actually a really good and fun album.






I'm finished watching it. Just like the last episode, really enjoyable and insightful! I'm looking forward to the "Little Deuce Coupe" album. That one gets overlooked quite a bit, but there's some very strong material on it. Wondering if you will go into "Cherry, cherry Coupe"'s chorus where Mike is rapping underneath the backgroundvoices, something that Brian would later do in "Cabin essence" as well.

Mike would also do that under the choruses of "Kiss Me, Baby" ("Kiss a little bit, fight a little bit").



You're absolutely correct, of course. In that case we could probably add Mike's bassline in "Good Vibrations" as going in that direction. Still, I would make a difference between "Kiss me, Baby" "GV" on one side and "Cherry, cherry Coupe" and "Cabin essence" on the other as in the latter two songs the parts of Mike resp. Dennis are almost poems on their own while the other songs are basically short repeating phrases. Probably a question of how you define it. I don't know if there is an actual technical term for that stuff.
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