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Author Topic: Dennis Visiting and House Shopping in Hawaii - July 1967  (Read 5686 times)
guitarfool2002
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« Reply #75 on: May 07, 2021, 11:30:10 AM »

I totally agree with GF that it seems pretty logical that the Hawaii concerts were evidence of the band trying to get some sort of cohesive and consistent sound down between their live shows and their studio material. And I think WH was an extension of that. No way it was just accidentally easier for the band to replicate in a live setting. I'm sure they were aware that was an added bonus.

And of course, in theory that would've been a very understandable and desirable outcome, which if that consistency had lasted for multiple albums with a few hit songs to boot, would almost certainly been noticed by critics and would have elevated their stature somewhat as a live act.

One thing that I hadn't seen mentioned here is that Wild Honey (the album) was also probably created in its current form as a result of Brian finally agreeing to go back to a "Brian and Mike" songwriting team approach that Brian had been reminded/pushed/guilted (your mileage may vary) into promising he'd rekindle. I don't recall the source, but I do recall reading on this board that after Pet Sounds, at Mike's urging, Brian promised "the next album" would be a "Brian and Mike" album, and then when Brian went back on that promise to make SMiLE, and then sadly faltered in a massive way on delivering the goods of a finished album, that seems like it would have been a prime moment for Mike to again push for it (successfully this time) with the WH album as a result.

While one can wonder/speculate/debate how much of this was gentle nudging/guilt tripping/etc, and nobody will ever *truly* know (I feel it was likely there were grey areas, but that there had to have been an element of guilt tripping, somewhere on that spectrum, it was in the family DNA to do this stuff), I will certainly nevertheless say that the resulting WH album was a great moment and one of the best moments of the Brian/Mike songwriting collaboration in the history of the band.

Good points to consider! I also cannot recall where that info about promising to renew the collaboration came from, but I do remember hearing similar things about rekindling the Brian-Mike songwriting activity after both Pet Sounds and Smile had mostly other collaborators.

I'd also add again that the somewhat mysterious decision to release (or at least consider) "Gettin Hungry" as a Brian and Mike single might have its roots in these same issues, and could also be a response to "Caroline, No" being labeled a Brian solo single while simultaneously appearing on the current Beach Boys album at the time. It's interesting to consider what exactly happened between all parties involved to lead to these decisions, and no doubt the renewed collaboration produced some classic music. But there was a definite change even in songwriting credits and the writing process at this time, among all the other drastic changes and shifts in direction.
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« Reply #76 on: May 07, 2021, 03:56:17 PM »

Just to toss in another (possibly unanswerable) question...  When Brian was prepping Darlin' for Redwood, had Mike Love already contributed new lyrics?   He had, of course, been credited on 'Thinkin' About You Baby,' but the new lyrics are completely different.  When were they written?  Before or after the song was taken away from Redwood?   

Had Mike been asked to revise the lyrics to the song... only to discover that Brian intended his work for a different group?  Or was Brian working from his own somewhat different Darlin' lyrics with Redwood, and Mike's contributions were the last-minute sort added during the BBs' vocal sessions (as was very often the case for ML's lyrical contributions)?

I have no idea, but I guess my money would be on the latter scenario since Brian's collaborations with ML were reportedly somewhat different than his with Parks, Asher, Usher, etc.   From what I've gathered, Brian and Mike weren't sitting around for 16 hours a day eating plates of sandwiches, shooting the breeze and working on songs.  It was more like Brian had a title, a melody and a partial lyric, and Mike filled in the gaps on his own time or at the very last minute when they were doing their vocals.  I remember being somewhat surprised when I saw that 1976-ish clip in American Band where Brian says, "The guy I probably wrote with the most is Van Dyke Parks."  At a time when there were maybe a half-dozen released BW-VDP songs (compared to 100s of BW-ML songs) that seemed like yet another bizarre BW statement.  And yet it may actually have been true if by "writing together," Brian meant actually sitting down at a piano and simultaneously working on songs.


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« Reply #77 on: May 08, 2021, 01:49:08 AM »

...
While one can wonder/speculate/debate how much of this was gentle nudging/guilt tripping/etc, and nobody will ever *truly* know (I feel it was likely there were grey areas, but that there had to have been an element of guilt tripping, somewhere on that spectrum, it was in the family DNA to do this stuff), I will certainly nevertheless say that the resulting WH album was a great moment and one of the best moments of the Brian/Mike songwriting collaboration in the history of the band.

I absolutely agree. For me, the lyrics on Wild Honey are some of the best the band ever did. They're fun and creative and they complement the music incredibly well. Come to think of it, Mike was really good at writing love songs together with Brian, as exemplified before on the B side of Today. Later on Mike's lyrical contributions would become pretty awful beginning with M.I.U. of course but before that he did some amazing work even beyond the early surf-era material (which of course is brilliant too).
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« Reply #78 on: May 08, 2021, 05:55:04 AM »

One thing that I hadn't seen mentioned here is that Wild Honey (the album) was also probably created in its current form as a result of Brian finally agreeing to go back to a "Brian and Mike" songwriting team approach that Brian had been reminded/pushed/guilted (your mileage may vary) into promising he'd rekindle. I don't recall the source, but I do recall reading on this board that after Pet Sounds, at Mike's urging, Brian promised "the next album" would be a "Brian and Mike" album, and then when Brian went back on that promise to make SMiLE, and then sadly faltered in a massive way on delivering the goods of a finished album, that seems like it would have been a prime moment for Mike to again push for it (successfully this time) with the WH album as a result.

While one can wonder/speculate/debate how much of this was gentle nudging/guilt tripping/etc, and nobody will ever *truly* know (I feel it was likely there were grey areas, but that there had to have been an element of guilt tripping, somewhere on that spectrum, it was in the family DNA to do this stuff), I will certainly nevertheless say that the resulting WH album was a great moment and one of the best moments of the Brian/Mike songwriting collaboration in the history of the band.

I do question the full extent of lyrical contribution by Mike on the Wild Honey album considering he is labeled as co-writing "Mama Says" - what else did Mike not write that he's credited for?
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« Reply #79 on: May 08, 2021, 06:11:54 AM »


I do question the full extent of lyrical contribution by Mike on the Wild Honey album considering he is labeled as co-writing "Mama Says" - what else did Mike not write that he's credited for?

Verifiability, nothing other than Mama Says and I'd Love Just Once to See You. In the latter's case, only because nobody's asked about it yet. Wouldn't be surprised however if that's one Brian started alone and Mike edited. The rest of the songs each have comments from Brian, Mike, or other Beach Boys confirming Mike as the primary lyricist.

Mike claims he wrote the Darlin' verses as they were finishing up the track. Brian already had the chorus on his own.
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« Reply #80 on: May 08, 2021, 07:28:06 AM »

I totally agree with GF that it seems pretty logical that the Hawaii concerts were evidence of the band trying to get some sort of cohesive and consistent sound down between their live shows and their studio material. And I think WH was an extension of that. No way it was just accidentally easier for the band to replicate in a live setting. I'm sure they were aware that was an added bonus.

And of course, in theory that would've been a very understandable and desirable outcome, which if that consistency had lasted for multiple albums with a few hit songs to boot, would almost certainly been noticed by critics and would have elevated their stature somewhat as a live act.

One thing that I hadn't seen mentioned here is that Wild Honey (the album) was also probably created in its current form as a result of Brian finally agreeing to go back to a "Brian and Mike" songwriting team approach that Brian had been reminded/pushed/guilted (your mileage may vary) into promising he'd rekindle. I don't recall the source, but I do recall reading on this board that after Pet Sounds, at Mike's urging, Brian promised "the next album" would be a "Brian and Mike" album, and then when Brian went back on that promise to make SMiLE, and then sadly faltered in a massive way on delivering the goods of a finished album, that seems like it would have been a prime moment for Mike to again push for it (successfully this time) with the WH album as a result.

While one can wonder/speculate/debate how much of this was gentle nudging/guilt tripping/etc, and nobody will ever *truly* know (I feel it was likely there were grey areas, but that there had to have been an element of guilt tripping, somewhere on that spectrum, it was in the family DNA to do this stuff), I will certainly nevertheless say that the resulting WH album was a great moment and one of the best moments of the Brian/Mike songwriting collaboration in the history of the band.

Good points to consider! I also cannot recall where that info about promising to renew the collaboration came from, but I do remember hearing similar things about rekindling the Brian-Mike songwriting activity after both Pet Sounds and Smile had mostly other collaborators.

I'd also add again that the somewhat mysterious decision to release (or at least consider) "Gettin Hungry" as a Brian and Mike single might have its roots in these same issues, and could also be a response to "Caroline, No" being labeled a Brian solo single while simultaneously appearing on the current Beach Boys album at the time. It's interesting to consider what exactly happened between all parties involved to lead to these decisions, and no doubt the renewed collaboration produced some classic music. But there was a definite change even in songwriting credits and the writing process at this time, among all the other drastic changes and shifts in direction.

The only sort of comment I've read from the band members regarding the release of "Gettin' Hungry" as a single is that it was credited to Brian and Mike because they were the ones "who just thought it would make a good single." This implies that perhaps the other guys didn't, so as a compromise, it was agreed that it would go out as a Brian and Mike single instead of a Beach Boys single. That single came out about the same time as the Smiley Smile album (the only date I could find was "September", which is the same month as the album's release, so I can't say for sure which was first - unlike the single release of "Caroline, No", which was a good two months before the release of Pet Sounds). 

Another factor behind the release of "Gettin' Hungry" as a Mike/Brian thing might be the intention at the time to have various solo (or in this case duo) releases from the band members - that was a stated goal for Brother Records, and presumably why Dennis and Carl each composed and produced a track during the SMiLE sessions, even though those were never finished and didn't see release at the time. Had Brother continued as a Capitol-distributed label beyond the Smiley Smile era, we might have seen more releases of this type (possibly including "Bluebirds Over The Mountain" as  a Bruce Johnston solo single).
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