gfxgfx
 
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
logo
 
gfx gfx
gfx
669440 Posts in 26932 Topics by 3918 Members - Latest Member: another June 18, 2021, 02:23:37 PM
*
gfx*HomeHelpSearchCalendarLoginRegistergfx
gfxgfx
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.       « previous next »
Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 Go Down Print
Author Topic: Dennis Visiting and House Shopping in Hawaii - July 1967  (Read 5688 times)
phirnis
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 2528



View Profile
« Reply #50 on: May 05, 2021, 11:48:46 PM »

I think one problem with the band's struggle for direction after Smile was how anticlimatic some of their ideas must have felt at the time. Today we know how brilliant Wild Honey is but reading the Paul Williams/David Anderle interview from back in the day suggests that it was much harder to fully appreciate it when it came out. Same with the transition from Surf's Up to Carl and the Passions, where fans were probably hoping for more "deep" stuff like 'Til I Die from Brian and instead he came up with Mess of Help and Marcella which I think are both incredible but they must have felt like lesser efforts at the time to many listeners I'm sure. I agree that Brian and the boys had always gone into new directions but to me, the steps from Surfer Girl to All Summer Long to Today to Pet Sounds feel more logical and confident than what they did in the late 60s and early 70s. I remember an interesting interview snippet from a BB documentary where Ed Roach said (I'm paraphrasing from memory here) that the band really splintered around the Holland period, constantly wondering what would be commercial and Dennis being frustrated about it. Maybe that's something that had already started a couple years earlier?
« Last Edit: May 05, 2021, 11:51:58 PM by phirnis » Logged
hideyotsuburaya
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 268


View Profile
« Reply #51 on: May 06, 2021, 07:54:29 AM »

as I understand it the redwood incident, where Mike (and Carl) confronted Brian in a hostile and demeaning way (being that the redwood members were just outside the door) was a Time To Get Alone recording session, and the song was nearly finished for them (as opposed to Darlin' which had the instrumental track done but needed more vocals).  And yet Mike & Carl took and walked away with the tapes for both songs then.  Why both?  They could've just taken the Darlin' tape(s) and leave TTGA tape behind for possible redwood release on Brother, at least for the time being.  Greedy?  Yes!  After all the Beach Boys didn't get around to doing anything with TTGA for at least another year (and in the end they re-recorded everything, duplicating the redwood instrumentation already done).  Quite insulting.

In 1967 Brian blundered when he couldn't complete SMiLE and backing out of Monterey Pop appearance at the last moment.  However it should be emphasized embarking on Redwood was not a blunder, far from it when one considers the enormous record success 3 Dog Night would enjoy starting just 2 yrs more time.  And the Brother Records label could've had a big piece of that pie thanks to Brians desire, vision, and music producing talent also in 1967.  Boy did his bandmates get things profoundly backwards
« Last Edit: May 06, 2021, 07:59:01 AM by hideyotsuburaya » Logged
Rocker
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Online Online

Gender: Male
Posts: 9921


"Too dumb for New York City, too ugly for L.A."


View Profile WWW
« Reply #52 on: May 06, 2021, 09:02:41 AM »

Great thread everybody! I need to take my time and read through all of this.

Some points I would like to mention after thinking about some of this. Take them or ignore them, as you please. But I wanted to at least post them:

- article from this time and interviews as well talk often about the possibility of the band breaking up. The article about Dennis' visit to Hawaii that started this thread as well mentions the topic. Around the Hawaii shows Brian says he's not sure how long that Beach Boys thing can go on, and IIRC in '68/'69 Brian says in an interview that the band nearly broke up because of the Smile project. Did the band maybe indeed break up? At least it seems that they did in Brian's mind. Like "If you're not willing to work to be the best band in the world, why try at all? From now on I am only gonna make music if I want to." (Just trying to understand what may have been going on in Brian's head after the Smile confrontations).

- it was mentioned here that Brian was going into the same direction with Redwood's "Darlin'" as he was with the Beach Boys and Wild Honey and that "Darlin'" fits perfectly on the WH album. I have to disagree. "Darlin'" is a great song and production, but it's sound is quite different to the rest of the album.

- the question of why the band changed their sound to a more basic one. It's been said in this thread that it may have been because of how hard it was to re-create songs from Pet Sounds plus Good Vibrations and that the band wasn't keen on taking more harsh critics. Very possible and likely, I guess. Another idea though: While Brian was mostly in the studio working, the band obviously went on tour and therefor probably had a better understanding of what direction the current music scene was going. Why? Because a lot of the bands that went on to become huge in the following years were actually opening acts for the Beach Boys (Jefferson Airplane, Buffalo Springfield, The Box Tops, Bobbie Gentry etc.). Could it be that the band realized that their sound was starting to lose it's commercial appeal and that the sound of their opening acts or co-headliners was getting more popular, so they switched to a more "band"-sound?

Logged

a diseased bunch of mo'fos if there ever was oneÖ their beauty is so awesome that listening to them at their best is like being in some vast dream cathedral decorated with a thousand gleaming American pop culture icons.

- Lester Bangs on The Beach Boys


PRO SHOT BEACH BOYS CONCERTS - LIST


To sum it up, they blew it, they blew it consistently, they continue to blow it, it is tragic and this pathological problem caused The Beach Boys' greatest music to be so underrated by the general public.

- Jack Rieley
juggler
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 922


View Profile
« Reply #53 on: May 06, 2021, 09:55:35 AM »

- it was mentioned here that Brian was going into the same direction with Redwood's "Darlin'" as he was with the Beach Boys and Wild Honey and that "Darlin'" fits perfectly on the WH album. I have to disagree. "Darlin'" is a great song and production, but it's sound is quite different to the rest of the album.

Disagree.  Darlin is of a piece with the rest of the WH due to the style of the lead vocal.  Like several other cuts on WH, Darlin features a raw-ish, R&B-flavored lead that had been essentially foreign to the BBs' oeuvre (though there were hints of that direction on Party! and Smiley, e.g., Gettin' Hungry).  It was as if they decided that their hallmark Four-Freshmen, barbershop style had run its course and they were moving on.  I often have thought that the relative failure of the Heroes & Villains 45 played a huge role in that shift.  Let's face it.  In some ways, H&V was apotheosis of Brian's efforts as vocal arranger in their classic style.  Brian probably held more vocal sessions and put more effort into arranging vocals for H&V than anything up that point (and possibly afterwards, too).  And they all felt that it had bombed. 
Logged
SaltyMarshmallow
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 388


View Profile
« Reply #54 on: May 06, 2021, 10:29:20 AM »

 After all the Beach Boys didn't get around to doing anything with TTGA for at least another year (and in the end they re-recorded everything, duplicating the redwood instrumentation already done).  Quite insulting.


That... isn't true at all.
Logged
sloopjohnb72
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 74


View Profile
« Reply #55 on: May 06, 2021, 11:38:33 AM »

as I understand it the redwood incident, where Mike (and Carl) confronted Brian in a hostile and demeaning way (being that the redwood members were just outside the door) was a Time To Get Alone recording session, and the song was nearly finished for them (as opposed to Darlin' which had the instrumental track done but needed more vocals).  And yet Mike & Carl took and walked away with the tapes for both songs then.  Why both?  They could've just taken the Darlin' tape(s) and leave TTGA tape behind for possible redwood release on Brother, at least for the time being.  Greedy?  Yes!  After all the Beach Boys didn't get around to doing anything with TTGA for at least another year (and in the end they re-recorded everything, duplicating the redwood instrumentation already done).  Quite insulting.

In 1967 Brian blundered when he couldn't complete SMiLE and backing out of Monterey Pop appearance at the last moment.  However it should be emphasized embarking on Redwood was not a blunder, far from it when one considers the enormous record success 3 Dog Night would enjoy starting just 2 yrs more time.  And the Brother Records label could've had a big piece of that pie thanks to Brians desire, vision, and music producing talent also in 1967.  Boy did his bandmates get things profoundly backwards

The song wasn't "nearly finished" by Redwood, it was finished. And Brian and Carl worked on it right after it was returned to the Beach Boys, during the Wild Honey sessions.
Logged
hideyotsuburaya
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 268


View Profile
« Reply #56 on: May 06, 2021, 12:29:47 PM »

if TTGA was truly finished it could've, and should've been left (the tapes that is) for Redwood, instead of Mike absconding with same.  Listening to it (on the 3 dog night CD) I get the distinct impression it wasn't quite done (there're parts that don't transition perfectly).  Hence the possible reason for the TTGA session that fateful day, and Mike not wanting Brian to work on it there anymore.  It is certainly true the song waited past the wild honey, past the friends (and technically past the stock-o-tracks) albums to find release eventually on 20/20.  It is also true the entire basic track was re-recorded when finally released on 20/20
Logged
SaltyMarshmallow
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 388


View Profile
« Reply #57 on: May 06, 2021, 12:44:53 PM »

It is also true the entire basic track was re-recorded when finally released on 20/20

No, it wasn't. Another unused track with an entirely new arrangement and reworked structure was recorded by Brian and Carl after the version released on 20/20 (the original production) had already been completed and mixed.

It was Brian's call to work on the song further during the Wild Honey sessions, and his decision to park it for the time being. He tried rewriting it for Friends. There's some evidence that it was being considered as a single for either Gary Puckett & The Union Gap or The Honeys in fall '68 (not exactly a sign of greed), and then Brian brought it back to the Beach Boys again amidst the 20/20 sessions. And when that was done, he kept working on it anyway. The idea that Time to Get Alone was robbed from Brian and completed by the other Beach Boys against his will is a myth stemming from the 20/20 gatefold's production credit. Brian was the one who drove it through every stage of its evolution post-Redwood. With Carl's help, but Brian was always the instigator.

Listening to it (on the 3 dog night CD) I get the distinct impression it wasn't quite done (there're parts that don't transition perfectly).

Might sound unfinished to you, but that's a polished and very deliberately edited mono dub, not a rough.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2021, 01:13:20 PM by SaltyMarshmallow » Logged
sloopjohnb72
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 74


View Profile
« Reply #58 on: May 06, 2021, 02:50:14 PM »

if TTGA was truly finished it could've, and should've been left (the tapes that is) for Redwood, instead of Mike absconding with same.  Listening to it (on the 3 dog night CD) I get the distinct impression it wasn't quite done (there're parts that don't transition perfectly).  Hence the possible reason for the TTGA session that fateful day, and Mike not wanting Brian to work on it there anymore.  It is certainly true the song waited past the wild honey, past the friends (and technically past the stock-o-tracks) albums to find release eventually on 20/20.  It is also true the entire basic track was re-recorded when finally released on 20/20
Almost all of this is untrue. If you seek out some recent releases, you can hear Time to Get Alone in its various stages - the Carl/Brian duet version from the Wild Honey sessions on Sunshine Tomorrow, Brian's Friends era demo on Wake the World, and an a cappella mix on I Can Hear Music. Brian's even on tape on the last of those saying "you know, come to think of it, this might be a hit record." The unused remake track that you seem to be confused about is on I Can Hear Music as well.

And, whether or not the Redwood vocals sound good to you, their version is a completed mono master. If they stuck with the song at the time, that exact mix would've been released.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2021, 02:51:42 PM by sloopjohnb72 » Logged
phirnis
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 2528



View Profile
« Reply #59 on: May 07, 2021, 12:13:58 AM »

It baffles me a bit how the Beach Boys insisted that TTGA become one of their songs but they never released it as a single, at least not as an A side. Instead they put out stuff like Bluebirds Over the Mountains which is a pretty uninspired production, to my ears anyway. Also, how did Carl get the sole production credit for TTGA if Brian was involved all the way?
Logged
SaltyMarshmallow
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 388


View Profile
« Reply #60 on: May 07, 2021, 12:45:10 AM »

Also, how did Carl get the sole production credit for TTGA if Brian was involved all the way?

Genuine best theory? Capitol art department mistake. Carl's sole credit simply isn't accurate (or even shared credit, if Our Prayer and Cabin Essence are the benchmark - I don't necessarily think they should be), besides Carl being the Beach Boy in the room overseeing the stereo mix, which is an aspect of Brian's own work that rarely interested him at all after that move. Brian arranged those vocals and sang in every corner of them. He introduced new lyrics. And judging by the re-record attempt, it was also his call to edit out the instrumental passage in the middle of the song.

There was a mono single mix prepared, but not released.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2021, 02:24:23 AM by SaltyMarshmallow » Logged
hideyotsuburaya
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 268


View Profile
« Reply #61 on: May 07, 2021, 08:31:00 AM »

"Also, how did Carl get the sole production credit for TTGA if Brian was involved all the way?"

because the song literally was stolen from Brian
« Last Edit: May 07, 2021, 08:32:04 AM by hideyotsuburaya » Logged
SaltyMarshmallow
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 388


View Profile
« Reply #62 on: May 07, 2021, 08:48:28 AM »

"Also, how did Carl get the sole production credit for TTGA if Brian was involved all the way?"

because the song literally was stolen from Brian

You keep stating things that are just factually untrue. Who do you think's singing lead in the chorus?
Logged
guitarfool2002
Global Moderator
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 9441


"Barba non facit aliam historici"


View Profile WWW
« Reply #63 on: May 07, 2021, 08:57:53 AM »

Great thread everybody! I need to take my time and read through all of this.

Some points I would like to mention after thinking about some of this. Take them or ignore them, as you please. But I wanted to at least post them:

- article from this time and interviews as well talk often about the possibility of the band breaking up. The article about Dennis' visit to Hawaii that started this thread as well mentions the topic. Around the Hawaii shows Brian says he's not sure how long that Beach Boys thing can go on, and IIRC in '68/'69 Brian says in an interview that the band nearly broke up because of the Smile project. Did the band maybe indeed break up? At least it seems that they did in Brian's mind. Like "If you're not willing to work to be the best band in the world, why try at all? From now on I am only gonna make music if I want to." (Just trying to understand what may have been going on in Brian's head after the Smile confrontations).

- it was mentioned here that Brian was going into the same direction with Redwood's "Darlin'" as he was with the Beach Boys and Wild Honey and that "Darlin'" fits perfectly on the WH album. I have to disagree. "Darlin'" is a great song and production, but it's sound is quite different to the rest of the album.

- the question of why the band changed their sound to a more basic one. It's been said in this thread that it may have been because of how hard it was to re-create songs from Pet Sounds plus Good Vibrations and that the band wasn't keen on taking more harsh critics. Very possible and likely, I guess. Another idea though: While Brian was mostly in the studio working, the band obviously went on tour and therefor probably had a better understanding of what direction the current music scene was going. Why? Because a lot of the bands that went on to become huge in the following years were actually opening acts for the Beach Boys (Jefferson Airplane, Buffalo Springfield, The Box Tops, Bobbie Gentry etc.). Could it be that the band realized that their sound was starting to lose it's commercial appeal and that the sound of their opening acts or co-headliners was getting more popular, so they switched to a more "band"-sound?



Interesting points to consider! A few thoughts in reply:

- I keep coming back to the sound of Darlin' being different because of the drums. I always assumed it was Jim Gordon playing that part, because it sounds like his style and it's literally driving the beat right on top of each downbeat if not pushing it ahead. Then we come to find out it's Hal Blaine! But it still sounds like Jim's style which we can hear on dozens of records and concerts to come. Anyway, that very subtle way of driving the beat without rushing it is a more authentic soul-R&B-Memphis style drumming trait which is on many soul records of this era. And Darlin' has that from the very first bars, while other tracks have the more laid-back feel...not a lazy beat but behind the beat. I love Dennis' drumming, I'll defend him as a drummer all day long, but the beat heard on Darlin' isn't something which would be played by Dennis, Carl, Brian, or anyone else in the band who would play drums on a track. And I think that's what makes it stand out - It has more drive in the groove and I think that comes from balancing session guys with in-house band members on these sessions.

- I have to mention Buffalo Springfield first because it's ironic how they perceive their history versus what we're talking about with the Beach Boys. I've heard nearly everyone in the band or involved with the band who has commented decades after the fact say how one of the main issues they had and still have is that the Springfield's albums and recordings never captured what they had happening on stage. And that is a total flip of what we're discussing with the Beach Boys during these exact same years, 66-68. People would see the Springfield live, and there were *three* guitarists doing harmony parts, trading leads, and engaging in extended guitar duels (Stills and Young), multiple vocalists doing live harmony stacks, an amazing and unique bassist Bruce Palmer (when he was actually with the band and not ducking authorities lol), and a solid drummer...and they played intense and loud when they needed, very loud, and could also play dynamics like another instrument.

Very few live recordings exist, and even on those, it really isn't the band in its element. Perhaps the closest thing is oddly enough an early episode of the TV show Mannix where the band is playing live in a small club as Mannix is investigating a case and Stills and Young are trading leads on Bluebird. But anyone who saw them will say the band in its element was simply amazing. Yet, the recordings never captured that energy or that X-Factor which made them special. And the band never was happy with the way the records were mixed.

So there's an ironic flip of the live versus studio topic, where numbers of Beach Boys fans at the time were saying the live shows don't sound enough like the records, and the Springfield band members and fans at the same time were saying the records don't capture what made the band great during the live shows.

I would add a few bands who were *huge* in 66-67 to the list of truly self-contained groups who played both live and in the studio, minus of course when extra instruments like horns and strings were added. To name a few big ones in the US from both coasts and one locale in between: The Lovin Spoonful, The Buckinghams, and The Turtles. What you heard on stage was exactly what was recorded in the studio when those guys played. In the case of the Spoonful, the rhythm section of Joe Butler and Steve Boone had been playing in dance bands and professional working groups for quite a few years before hooking up with Sebastian and Zally, who were in the Greenwich folk scene. They knew how to get people dancing, and they were a rock-solid rhythm section...pro musicians. With the Turtles, they were the same guys who were on the records more or less, with a few members coming and going. But again to the drums, when you have a true pro like Johnny Barbata driving that band, and he's the same guy cutting studio tracks and also playing the live shows, fans heard the same rhythm section more or less. The bass chair was a little more up in the air, as was the 2nd guitar chair, but the band in the studio was more or less the same as the live group. The Buckinghams had a sound that was based on horn sectionals and a "horn band" sound overall, but basically the same core band was both recording in the studio and playing live on tour. I honestly haven't heard any live tapes of the Buckinghams in '67-68 (or don't know if any exist), but it would be interesting to hear how they handled the live shows when their hit record sound was built on horn ensembles.

I'd also add The Doors to this list as perhaps the best example from LA...when the Doors played live, it was exactly the same sound as at least the first two albums, because those first two albums were cut basically live in the studio with the same guys minus Larry Knechtel fattening up some of Ray's piano-bass parts with his Fender. When you watch the Doors live at the Hollywood Bowl, it's only drums, keyboards, and one guitar yet it sounds full and exactly like the records. Same with Cream...three guys on stage and I don't think many fans complained about a thin sound. And factor in the Bay Area bands like the Airplane, the Dead, Quicksilver, Big Brother, others like Spirit...it was definitely changing things around in the rock scene at that time.

Ironic too that Bobbie Gentry had additional string players on stage with her in Hawaii when she played her first big gig opening for the Beach Boys. The Beach Boys took the stage as a five-member, truly self-contained unit with the true original 5 members who cut Surfin' for Hite Morgan. Yet a lot of people hearing the Hawaii tapes would say they sounded thin, especially on the hit singles they played those two nights. The question could be if Bobbie Gentry had extra musicians, why didn't the Beach Boys use them too?

- On the point about breaking up, again I think there is a lot that hasn't been told and a lot which probably never will be told. But when we factor in the quotes you reference from Brian saying the group nearly broke up, Marilyn's quotes, Dennis' quotes, Brian's other quotes, Dennis looking for a house in Hawaii, and a host of other radical shifts that took place in the latter half of '67, I think the notion of somehow splitting the group or even going on hiatus short of a full break-up may have been in the air within the band at this time.

One definite point is that things were never, and I truly mean never the same after May-June 1967 for the band.
Logged

"All of us have the privilege of making music that helps and heals - to make music that makes people happier, stronger, and kinder. Don't forget: Music is God's voice." - Brian Wilson
nts and the drum
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 100


View Profile
« Reply #64 on: May 07, 2021, 09:01:04 AM »

"Also, how did Carl get the sole production credit for TTGA if Brian was involved all the way?"

because the song literally was stolen from Brian

You keep stating things that are just factually untrue. Who do you think's singing lead in the chorus?

I know that itís not a question, but iirc Brian & Al.

I agree, spreading false info or lying wonít get you anywhere hideyotsuburaya. If you werenít at the sessions or have any evidence then donít spread information if you donít really know, or if youíre being a jerk. Just saying.
Logged
sloopjohnb72
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 74


View Profile
« Reply #65 on: May 07, 2021, 09:16:19 AM »

"Also, how did Carl get the sole production credit for TTGA if Brian was involved all the way?"

because the song literally was stolen from Brian
I have given you help on where to find the recording sessions on recent releases. I quoted Brian talking about how excited he was about this song for the beach boys in 1968, and told you where you can listen to him talk about it. If you reject real live evidence in order to support a narrative, there's no point in continuing this conversation.
Logged
SaltyMarshmallow
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 388


View Profile
« Reply #66 on: May 07, 2021, 09:20:43 AM »

"Also, how did Carl get the sole production credit for TTGA if Brian was involved all the way?"

because the song literally was stolen from Brian

You keep stating things that are just factually untrue. Who do you think's singing lead in the chorus?

I know that itís not a question, but iirc Brian & Al.

Ha, yes. Brian's also singing the 'ba ba ba' in unison with Al, he's at the top of the 'deep and wide' quartet, and he's in the middle of all the other verse and chorus backing vocals, less obvious. There actually isn't another Beach Boy as frequently featured singing on the track as Brian.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2021, 09:22:43 AM by SaltyMarshmallow » Logged
guitarfool2002
Global Moderator
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 9441


"Barba non facit aliam historici"


View Profile WWW
« Reply #67 on: May 07, 2021, 09:30:46 AM »

"Also, how did Carl get the sole production credit for TTGA if Brian was involved all the way?"

because the song literally was stolen from Brian

You keep stating things that are just factually untrue. Who do you think's singing lead in the chorus?

I know that itís not a question, but iirc Brian & Al.

I agree, spreading false info or lying wonít get you anywhere hideyotsuburaya. If you werenít at the sessions or have any evidence then donít spread information if you donít really know, or if youíre being a jerk. Just saying.

No need to get upset or make accusations on other members in a discussion like this. Just keep it cool.  Smiley

Just a pure hypothetical here to consider, whether people agree or not with the terminology and understanding this never happened and would never happen in reality:

*What If* John Lennon, George Harrison, and Allen Klein had found out Paul McCartney was recording "Maybe I'm Amazed" at Abbey Road studio 2 in February 1970 on his own, before "Let It Be" had come out. What if even John and George alone had walked in while McCartney was recording that track, began to browbeat Paul, tell him we need material for a new Beatles single, and proceeded to walk out of Abbey Road with the Maybe I'm Amazed tapes. Then while Let It Be was running its course, they went back and added various parts to Paul's tracks while wiping his original vocals. Yet Paul was there with them adding new parts in the name of getting a new Beatles single together.

It's silly, I know, but absurd for a reason. I could understand why some reading an account like that would think the other Beatles "stole" McCartney's track in that scenario, when the track was neither written nor recorded for The Beatles, yet the other Beatles literally walked in on his sessions and walked out with the tapes. Whether or not hypothetical Paul would end up adding more to the track as a Beatle in the scenario, it's what happened and how it was done that might shape opinions.

Again I'm not saying anything is factual or that anyone is right or wrong, but when such a scenario is presented I can see where and why opinions could be formed based on what happened.

And yet, getting out of the imaginary scenarios and in to reality, The Beatles with Apple throughout 1968 and 1969 had individual members recording and producing outside artists for their label, some which became huge hit records like Mary Hopkin, and I can't think of a single example where those activities didn't peacefully co-exist with what was going on musically for The Beatles. They split their time, their efforts, and their songwriting and production skills among the band and outside Apple artists, they scored hit records across the board, and I don't believe any Beatles ever walked into a studio session with an outside artist to hassle another member over giving away good songs and proceed to walk out with the tapes to go on a future Beatles project.  
Logged

"All of us have the privilege of making music that helps and heals - to make music that makes people happier, stronger, and kinder. Don't forget: Music is God's voice." - Brian Wilson
guitarfool2002
Global Moderator
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 9441


"Barba non facit aliam historici"


View Profile WWW
« Reply #68 on: May 07, 2021, 09:39:11 AM »

Or maybe a better ridiculous hypothetical to use in that absurd scenario would have been McCartney writing and producing "Come And Get It" and giving it to Badfinger...lol  Grin
Logged

"All of us have the privilege of making music that helps and heals - to make music that makes people happier, stronger, and kinder. Don't forget: Music is God's voice." - Brian Wilson
SaltyMarshmallow
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 388


View Profile
« Reply #69 on: May 07, 2021, 09:49:29 AM »


*What If* John Lennon, George Harrison, and Allen Klein had found out Paul McCartney was recording "Maybe I'm Amazed" at Abbey Road studio 2 in February 1970 on his own, before "Let It Be" had come out. What if even John and George alone had walked in while McCartney was recording that track, began to browbeat Paul, tell him we need material for a new Beatles single, and proceeded to walk out of Abbey Road with the Maybe I'm Amazed tapes. Then while Let It Be was running its course, they went back and added various parts to Paul's tracks while wiping his original vocals. Yet Paul was there with them adding new parts in the name of getting a new Beatles single together.

It's silly, I know, but absurd for a reason. I could understand why some reading an account like that would think the other Beatles "stole" McCartney's track in that scenario, when the track was neither written nor recorded for The Beatles, yet the other Beatles literally walked in on his sessions and walked out with the tapes. Whether or not hypothetical Paul would end up adding more to the track as a Beatle in the scenario, it's what happened and how it was done that might shape opinions.

Again I'm not saying anything is factual or that anyone is right or wrong, but when such a scenario is presented I can see where and why opinions could be formed based on what happened.
 

Sure, I can totally understand that, but that isn't the way the Redwood incident happened either. Danny Hutton explicitly recalled this being at Brian's house, in the Beach Boys' studio, not Heider's. Negron only located it as 'the studio'. This was essentially their HQ, where they convened regularly. Nobody physically walked out with any tapes either - they turned up, 'put the screws on' Brian (inarguably bad conduct, regardless of what happened later or how attitudes may have then changed), and then Brian called it off under pressure. Painting it as if the others literally walked in and stole the tapes for Brian's song is to make the situation sound more absurd than it really was.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2021, 10:11:32 AM by SaltyMarshmallow » Logged
guitarfool2002
Global Moderator
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 9441


"Barba non facit aliam historici"


View Profile WWW
« Reply #70 on: May 07, 2021, 10:22:15 AM »


*What If* John Lennon, George Harrison, and Allen Klein had found out Paul McCartney was recording "Maybe I'm Amazed" at Abbey Road studio 2 in February 1970 on his own, before "Let It Be" had come out. What if even John and George alone had walked in while McCartney was recording that track, began to browbeat Paul, tell him we need material for a new Beatles single, and proceeded to walk out of Abbey Road with the Maybe I'm Amazed tapes. Then while Let It Be was running its course, they went back and added various parts to Paul's tracks while wiping his original vocals. Yet Paul was there with them adding new parts in the name of getting a new Beatles single together.

It's silly, I know, but absurd for a reason. I could understand why some reading an account like that would think the other Beatles "stole" McCartney's track in that scenario, when the track was neither written nor recorded for The Beatles, yet the other Beatles literally walked in on his sessions and walked out with the tapes. Whether or not hypothetical Paul would end up adding more to the track as a Beatle in the scenario, it's what happened and how it was done that might shape opinions.

Again I'm not saying anything is factual or that anyone is right or wrong, but when such a scenario is presented I can see where and why opinions could be formed based on what happened.
 

Sure, I can totally understand that, but that isn't the way the Redwood incident happened either. Danny Hutton explicitly recalled this being at Brian's house, in the Beach Boys' studio, not Heider's. Negron only located it as 'the studio'. This was essentially their HQ, where they convened regularly. Nobody physically walked out with any tapes either - they turned up, 'put the screws on' Brian (inarguably bad conduct, regardless of what happened later or how attitudes may have then changed), and then Brian called it off under pressure. Painting it as if the others literally walked in and stole the tapes for Brian's song is making the situation sound more absurd than it really was.


For reference, I would point to these sources:

#1:
This board, November 2014
GuitarFool;  I can tell you that I heard this straight from the horses mouth ; what went down at Wally Heiders is what Negron has related in his book.   

Quite interesting. I do have to ask Ray, is it you asking Brian about this stuff? Or him bringing it up? Cuz I have to imagine that something like this has to be really traumatic still for him. And while we're at it, if this is true as you say (and I have no reason to doubt you), does Brian still harbor resentment against Carl and Al for this, or has he let bygones be bygones, especially considering I'm sure he did quite a bit to hurt those guys to in the intervening years.

Actually ; I never have asked Brian about this, nor would I ever ask him about something that , as you say , had to have been really traumatic for him , and essentially something that still bothers him. As I said , I heard it from the horses mouth; but I guess that needs more clarification on this forum. So ; it was early August, 2006,  and I was driving Brian and Danny Hutton , in Brian's car, a navy blue 2006 Mercedes Benz CLS55 AMG ( best car I have ever driven), to Scott Bennett's place where they were going to cut "Rave On" , the Buddy Holly tune.Danny brought a Buddy Holly CD to play in the car on the ride over so he could show Brian how he could sing the tune; Brian said no , forget that,  we are going to do it totally different than the original. Anyway;  Scott called as we crossed over the Coldwater Canyon intersection up on Mulholland Drive, and asked if we could get there about two hours later than scheduled, since he was running late in a session.  So Danny knew a bar in the area by Scott's , and the three of us camped out there for about an hour and a half; maybe a bit more.  Brian was sitting on the barstool to my left ; Danny was sitting on the barstool to my right ; I was standing in the center, facing them both. Brian and I had Stella Artois on draft ; I recall Danny had either a glass of wine or a Corona ; that part I can't really be sure. Their conversation was intensely personal ; ALL of it was centered around 1966-68; both personal stuff and BB's related. Regarding the Redwood incident, Brian initiated that part of the conversation. Essentially Brian apologized to Danny for "what happened with Mike and Carl at Wally Heiders"  , but that he couldn't do anything about it ( he did not mention Al). Danny was saying to him it was ok , it didn't matter and he was never angry with Brian about it, that he knew it wasn't Brian's call.  Brian had thought that Danny held a  major grudge against him for bailing out on Redwood, but Danny reassured him that this was never the case and to please let it go. I think he did. 

#2:
Interview with Danny Hutton
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t5zYjs96sZA&list=PL35350BBCE486D776

#3:
Carlin book, page 130
"...when Carl and Mike walked through the door of the Wally Heider studio where they were working looking anything but happy."
"Mike and Carl took the master tapes of the two songs for the Beach Boys' new album."

And other sources previously quoted here.

For me, when someone who was actually present at the conversation between Brian and Danny about these situations says what Ray Lawlor said in his post quoted above, and says Brian himself said what went down at Heiders is what Negron related in his book, I'm going to weigh that pretty heavily when piecing together all the reports and facts.

As far as physically carrying out the tapes, of course I exaggerated the scenario and said it was an absurd hypothetical all along to show and understand how opinions can be formed. And it could be the language in Carlin's book (and other reports) that suggested them actually physically carrying out the tapes when he wrote Mike and Carl "took the tapes". And Danny was involved with Darlin from its inception, as well as Time To Get Alone of course, so he was present at both Brian's home studio and at Heider's studios when these events were happening.

But there's no doubt the big incident we're discussing happened at Wally Heider's, as the quotes above - specifically Brian saying it happened as described - would show.

Logged

"All of us have the privilege of making music that helps and heals - to make music that makes people happier, stronger, and kinder. Don't forget: Music is God's voice." - Brian Wilson
CenturyDeprived
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 5657



View Profile
« Reply #71 on: May 07, 2021, 10:30:31 AM »


The Theremin line on Wild Honey for example is an octave sweep that anyone could be shown how to play, and Mike could play it on stage easily.


How long a period of time did Mike play theremin onstage? And I'm guessing GV and WH are the only songs the band ever played theremin live? (I think only IJWMFTT was the only other song they ever recored with theremin, yet I suppose they could have included it on other songs in a live setting if they'd wanted to).

The only Mike theremin clip I can recall seeing is from that TV show circa 1968 where the band plays GV with all of those psychedelic bluescreen moments of the band members falling into multiple versions of themselves like a mirror room at a carnival. Mike always looked awkward and unhappy in that clip, I'm assuming he was not used to playing an instrument and singing simultaneously, although of course his mates had done that for years at that point,  yet it is a bit harder to play a lead instrumental line while singing lead.
Logged
SaltyMarshmallow
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 388


View Profile
« Reply #72 on: May 07, 2021, 10:35:19 AM »

Danny does explicitly describe it as Brian's house in Priore's book, he doesn't refer the the studio said confrontation happened at in the linked video (only where sessions for TTGA happened), and Negron doesn't either. The only source for Heider's would be Brian. An important source, but it's not weighed up directly by those others. Carlin's also surmising events just as we are. But... that's all besides the point. The point is that "Mike and Carl took the master tapes" away from Brian, as depicted by Carlin and the way hideyotsuburaya argues it, isn't actually what happened. Brian himself erased over those Redwood vocals with his own voice. He initially dropped them under pressure, but it's not like the others used him as a sock puppet.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2021, 10:36:21 AM by SaltyMarshmallow » Logged
CenturyDeprived
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 5657



View Profile
« Reply #73 on: May 07, 2021, 10:38:23 AM »

I totally agree with GF that it seems pretty logical that the Hawaii concerts were evidence of the band trying to get some sort of cohesive and consistent sound down between their live shows and their studio material. And I think WH was an extension of that. No way it was just accidentally easier for the band to replicate in a live setting. I'm sure they were aware that was an added bonus.

And of course, in theory that would've been a very understandable and desirable outcome, which if that consistency had lasted for multiple albums with a few hit songs to boot, would almost certainly been noticed by critics and would have elevated their stature somewhat as a live act.

One thing that I hadn't seen mentioned here is that Wild Honey (the album) was also probably created in its current form as a result of Brian finally agreeing to go back to a "Brian and Mike" songwriting team approach that Brian had been reminded/pushed/guilted (your mileage may vary) into promising he'd rekindle. I don't recall the source, but I do recall reading on this board that after Pet Sounds, at Mike's urging, Brian promised "the next album" would be a "Brian and Mike" album, and then when Brian went back on that promise to make SMiLE, and then sadly faltered in a massive way on delivering the goods of a finished album, that seems like it would have been a prime moment for Mike to again push for it (successfully this time) with the WH album as a result.

While one can wonder/speculate/debate how much of this was gentle nudging/guilt tripping/etc, and nobody will ever *truly* know (I feel it was likely there were grey areas, but that there had to have been an element of guilt tripping, somewhere on that spectrum, it was in the family DNA to do this stuff), I will certainly nevertheless say that the resulting WH album was a great moment and one of the best moments of the Brian/Mike songwriting collaboration in the history of the band.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2021, 10:41:49 AM by CenturyDeprived » Logged
guitarfool2002
Global Moderator
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 9441


"Barba non facit aliam historici"


View Profile WWW
« Reply #74 on: May 07, 2021, 11:21:52 AM »

Danny does explicitly describe it as Brian's house in Priore's book, he doesn't refer the the studio said confrontation happened at in the linked video (only where sessions for TTGA happened), and Negron doesn't either. The only source for Heider's would be Brian. An important source, but it's not weighed up directly by those others. Carlin's also surmising events just as we are. But... that's all besides the point. The point is that "Mike and Carl took the master tapes" away from Brian, as depicted by Carlin and the way hideyotsuburaya argues it, isn't actually what happened. Brian himself erased over those Redwood vocals with his own voice. He initially dropped them under pressure, but it's not like the others used him as a sock puppet.

Danny Hutton quoted in Harvey Kubernik's book "Canyon Of Dreams":
"Just before we became Three Dog Night, we auditioned as the trio. Brian Wilson played us the song Darlin' and we went to do a session at Wally Heider's Studios. Brian played the piano with a bass player from Motown and we did rough guide vocals. The Beach Boys then came in and they used the track and they put their vocals on them."

Danny quoted in the video above:
"So we actually did Time To Get Alone, one of the songs we did, we did it on Selma, we didn't do it at the house."

Wally Heider's studio was located at Selma and Cahuenga in Los Angeles.

Just adding more quotes for the discussion.

If you piece it all together with the above, as you suggest, some of this is beside the point: The point that a confrontation did happen over these tracks going to Redwood, that the project was halted and Mike went to Danny with the ultimatum of one single or nothing from Brian, and the tracks written and recorded for Redwood were then used as Beach Boys tracks. Then Brian felt guilty over it for decades to the point of apologizing to Danny for what happened almost 40 years later. I can see where some reading through all this might feel like the tracks were "taken" from Redwood and from Brian's original intent for them after Mike confronted him and then went to Danny with his ultimatum. No matter what other details are put forth, no matter how things eventually worked out for all parties in the coming years, that's what happened and I can see where some opinions would be formed accordingly.

And when Ray Lawlor posting here in 2014 was actually there when Brian and Danny discussed what had happened, and Brian confirms what Negron said, that's also a major point worth considering when weighing all of it to better understand what went down between all these guys.
Logged

"All of us have the privilege of making music that helps and heals - to make music that makes people happier, stronger, and kinder. Don't forget: Music is God's voice." - Brian Wilson
gfx
Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 Go Up Print 
gfx
Jump to:  
gfx
Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines Page created in 0.338 seconds with 21 queries.
Helios Multi design by Bloc
gfx
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!