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Author Topic: Feel Flows box set  (Read 549884 times)
HeyJude
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« Reply #4150 on: September 08, 2021, 08:48:50 AM »

This isn't the actual Billboard Top 200 albums chart, but something based (I assume) on sales rather than airplay and streams -- no doubt making it more favourable to a release like FF. Still cool though.

It's billboards own "top album sales" chart. Really the only billboard chart that matters

I think selling 10,000 copies in one week of a set that goes for up to $125 is great; this are good numbers for a multi-disc archival BB set.

In terms of the industry, the "main" album chart is this one:

https://www.billboard.com/charts/billboard-200

This is the main "Top 200" chart, which counts actual unit sales as well as uses a formula to equate streams to sales. I think it's 1,250 streams from a paid subscription service that equal 1 sold unit, and 3,750 streams from ad-supported services equal 1 sold unit.

I'm pretty sure they count each disc in a boxset towards the total sold count which is why some companies like including a bonus disc to boost sales figures.   If I'm correct, the total number of boxset sales would be approx. 2,000 which seems more realistic.

I"m curious if it could work like that.

The albums sales chart includes both digital and physical full album purchases. The digital edition has no "discs", so I don't think a digital edition would count as multiple units. Also, this figure would presumably include other SKUs for the set such as the vinyl edition, and possibly the 2-CD version.

There may be some more convoluted formulas they use; I'm not sure. But I don't think the set has sold only 2,000 units across all physical and digital SKUs.
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« Reply #4151 on: September 08, 2021, 10:04:15 AM »

Do these sales figures include orders that haven’t shipped yet?
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Cabinessenceking
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« Reply #4152 on: September 08, 2021, 10:39:48 AM »

Kind of amazed that something like Queen Greatest Hits can still be as high as the top 20 selling albums in the entire country. Queen are great of course, but how many times can you hear "Bohemian Rhapsody" before you're wishing for someone to drive a screw through your ear drum with an electric drill?
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« Reply #4153 on: September 08, 2021, 11:20:22 AM »

Holyshitonastick!
The extended backing vocals version of This Whole World was worth the price of the box alone!
All hail Hal Blaine and his incredible sticks & skins work! WOWSVILLE!
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Joshilyn Hoisington
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« Reply #4154 on: September 08, 2021, 11:40:07 AM »

Holyshitonastick!
The extended backing vocals version of This Whole World was worth the price of the box alone!
All hail Hal Blaine and his incredible sticks & skins work! WOWSVILLE!

It's Dennis Dragon on drums on This Whole World.
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Howie Edelson
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« Reply #4155 on: September 08, 2021, 04:54:55 PM »

Don't know if this has been posted here yet  -- but Joshilyn, these are brilliant and so important.
Keep going!!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5OjiGUoB_0E
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« Reply #4156 on: September 08, 2021, 05:40:55 PM »

Thanks, Howie, that's very kind.
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HeyJude
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« Reply #4157 on: September 09, 2021, 07:10:21 AM »

Your new "Slip on Through" breakdown is great. I'm putting a link up on my FB page. This stuff needs to be seen indeed.

Your guitar breakdown awhile back on "This Whole World" was great. I'm curious if there's a way to do a breakdown on *why* the chord changes in "This Whole World" are so appealing. That song has like a million chords in it, and the changes make no sense yet make total sense. It's not something like, say, that rando Brian '77 track "Why", which while cool and interesting, sounds like some random weird jazzy chord changes. "This Whole World" keeps changing chords, almost like a runaway train, but they all sound right. The chords come back around and resolve and sound "right" at the end, but each chord change sounds "right" even before anything resolves. "Wonderful" is another one like that.

I'd have to guess some of what sounds right are the modulations/key changes, but my grasp of this musicological whatnot in terms of trying to describe what I'm thinking always comes it fits and starts. These videos *show* this stuff. Perfect.
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« Reply #4158 on: September 09, 2021, 07:56:04 AM »

Definitely worth checking out!

http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,27900.0.html
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« Reply #4159 on: September 09, 2021, 08:11:54 AM »

This isn't the actual Billboard Top 200 albums chart, but something based (I assume) on sales rather than airplay and streams -- no doubt making it more favourable to a release like FF. Still cool though.

It's billboards own "top album sales" chart. Really the only billboard chart that matters

I think selling 10,000 copies in one week of a set that goes for up to $125 is great; this are good numbers for a multi-disc archival BB set.

In terms of the industry, the "main" album chart is this one:

https://www.billboard.com/charts/billboard-200

This is the main "Top 200" chart, which counts actual unit sales as well as uses a formula to equate streams to sales. I think it's 1,250 streams from a paid subscription service that equal 1 sold unit, and 3,750 streams from ad-supported services equal 1 sold unit.

I'm pretty sure they count each disc in a boxset towards the total sold count which is why some companies like including a bonus disc to boost sales figures.   If I'm correct, the total number of boxset sales would be approx. 2,000 which seems more realistic.

I"m curious if it could work like that.

The albums sales chart includes both digital and physical full album purchases. The digital edition has no "discs", so I don't think a digital edition would count as multiple units. Also, this figure would presumably include other SKUs for the set such as the vinyl edition, and possibly the 2-CD version.

There may be some more convoluted formulas they use; I'm not sure. But I don't think the set has sold only 2,000 units across all physical and digital SKUs.


Do these sales figures include orders that haven’t shipped yet?



The way "charts" are calculated and listed is so convoluted as of 2021, I doubt there are many even in the record business who could give a straight answer as to how it's done. When you're dealing with releases that have 3 or 4 types of media per release, including digital streaming and downloading, how in the hell could anyone tabulate all of it into one cohesive figure in order to form a "chart" of any kind?

It's absurd.

In previous decades I believe chart placement in terms of weekly sales was almost entirely based on how many orders were placed by the record shops to stock their shelves. Not by how many customers came into a shop and bought a copy of a record. Then they'd factor in airplay on the radio in different regions, and get their Hot 100 singles or Top 200 Album lists. So it could be rigged, and it was rigged, as in the famous case of Brian Epstein ordering something like 40,000 copies of "Love Me Do" for his NEMS record shop so the Beatles' debut single would appear on the UK singles charts.

I think most artists just take chart placement as the marketing opportunity it has become, and celebrate whatever number is listed by whatever convoluted formula "The Business" uses to calculate these things. I mean, seriously, does anyone think the numbers of the modern Top-40 type of genres are anywhere near accurate when you get a new unknown rapper with the prefix "Lil'" generating upwards of 10 million views in a week or two on YouTube, or some new unknown tatted-up country Bro with a designer trucker hat and ripped flannel shirt scoring similar numbers?
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« Reply #4160 on: September 09, 2021, 01:30:01 PM »

Mark Lewisohn on the tale about Brian Epstein hyping Love Me Do into the British charts:

Quote
North-west sales this first Friday and Saturday – with the epicentre in Liverpool – sent Love Me Do straight into the Top Fifty, the one compiled for the following Thursday’s Record Retailer: it snuck in at 49 ... So freakish was all of this, rumours quickly took grip that Brian was hyping the chart, buying in boxes of Love Me Do to fake its position ... No one considered Brian’s membership of a committee that challenged suspicions of chart malpractice, or his resistance to faking My Bonnie into even his own shop’s published Top Twenty, or – most striking of all – the fact that, in 1962, it made no difference how many copies a shop sold of any record because the charts weren’t computed that way. Nems had been a ‘chart return’ operation for years – it still provided data to Melody Maker and also now to Record Retailer – but those papers’ weekly phone calls or printed questionnaires didn’t ask for sales figures, only for a shop’s bestselling records ranked from 1 to 30; the papers awarded thirty points to the number 1 record down to one point for the number 30, and calculated an overall national total. All the charts were produced this way, as they still were in America. Brian Epstein had no need to buy ten thousand Love Me Dos to fake it into the charts; he didn’t even need to buy one. He did buy a couple of thousand copies, because the majority of Beatles fans wanted to buy it from Nems’ three stores, and because he was the manager and agent of this band and EMI had sent him one free copy.
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« Reply #4161 on: September 09, 2021, 02:33:51 PM »

Mark Lewisohn on the tale about Brian Epstein hyping Love Me Do into the British charts:

Quote
North-west sales this first Friday and Saturday – with the epicentre in Liverpool – sent Love Me Do straight into the Top Fifty, the one compiled for the following Thursday’s Record Retailer: it snuck in at 49 ... So freakish was all of this, rumours quickly took grip that Brian was hyping the chart, buying in boxes of Love Me Do to fake its position ... No one considered Brian’s membership of a committee that challenged suspicions of chart malpractice, or his resistance to faking My Bonnie into even his own shop’s published Top Twenty, or – most striking of all – the fact that, in 1962, it made no difference how many copies a shop sold of any record because the charts weren’t computed that way. Nems had been a ‘chart return’ operation for years – it still provided data to Melody Maker and also now to Record Retailer – but those papers’ weekly phone calls or printed questionnaires didn’t ask for sales figures, only for a shop’s bestselling records ranked from 1 to 30; the papers awarded thirty points to the number 1 record down to one point for the number 30, and calculated an overall national total. All the charts were produced this way, as they still were in America. Brian Epstein had no need to buy ten thousand Love Me Dos to fake it into the charts; he didn’t even need to buy one. He did buy a couple of thousand copies, because the majority of Beatles fans wanted to buy it from Nems’ three stores, and because he was the manager and agent of this band and EMI had sent him one free copy.

Interesting info! But I would challenge Lewisohn's statement about how the charting process was done in America. That's not quite right, and I'll have to follow up with more info on that when I can find it. Sales were tabulated on how many copies were ordered. I don't know when or for how long that was done, but you didn't have individual record shops saying "we sold 200 copies of Record X" every week, it was how many copies were shipped.

I think. Lol.  Cheesy
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« Reply #4162 on: September 09, 2021, 05:54:11 PM »

Don't know if this has been posted here yet  -- but Joshilyn, these are brilliant and so important.
Keep going!!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5OjiGUoB_0E

Cool, with these kind of songwriters, it's pretty much almost all in the voicings.

There's a lot of stuff to discuss re: Feel Flows music and production. I've been humbly thinking of suggesting a new thread about it. Just a tiny example: the sound of the backing vocals excerpt of "Break Away". Are these slowed down?
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« Reply #4163 on: September 09, 2021, 09:07:47 PM »

Don't know if this has been posted here yet  -- but Joshilyn, these are brilliant and so important.
Keep going!!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5OjiGUoB_0E

Cool, with these kind of songwriters, it's pretty much almost all in the voicings.

There's a lot of stuff to discuss re: Feel Flows music and production. I've been humbly thinking of suggesting a new thread about it. Just a tiny example: the sound of the backing vocals excerpt of "Break Away". Are these slowed down?

More accurately, some of those vocals were recorded with the tape running fast, and so played back at "normal" speed they sound lower and slower.
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guitarfool2002
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« Reply #4164 on: September 10, 2021, 09:06:45 AM »

Don't know if this has been posted here yet  -- but Joshilyn, these are brilliant and so important.
Keep going!!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5OjiGUoB_0E

Cool, with these kind of songwriters, it's pretty much almost all in the voicings.

There's a lot of stuff to discuss re: Feel Flows music and production. I've been humbly thinking of suggesting a new thread about it. Just a tiny example: the sound of the backing vocals excerpt of "Break Away". Are these slowed down?

More accurately, some of those vocals were recorded with the tape running fast, and so played back at "normal" speed they sound lower and slower.

And that in itself is not a new technique at all, even though as of 1969 in pop and rock music the Beatles had been doing it perhaps most obviously since the song Rain, where they played the backing track much faster then slowed it down to change the texture - but hardly any listeners would have noticed, much like what the BB's were doing. And the pioneer of all this in popular music, Les Paul, was doing these things in the 40's. I just mention all that because it's always important to know the lineage and that a lot of these things were innovative as they were applied but were not new techniques.

Actually the most fascinating history on vari-speeding comes from the World War 1 era! Spies would record coded messages on primitive wire-type recorders, speed up the recording to where it was completely unintelligible, broadcast the message over short wave, and the recipients would record it over the air then slow it down to transcribe the message. World War 1, mind you. That's crazy stuff. But not relevant to Feel Flows, so I'll say sorry for the off-topic.
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« Reply #4165 on: September 10, 2021, 09:17:22 AM »

Mark Lewisohn on the tale about Brian Epstein hyping Love Me Do into the British charts:

Quote
North-west sales this first Friday and Saturday – with the epicentre in Liverpool – sent Love Me Do straight into the Top Fifty, the one compiled for the following Thursday’s Record Retailer: it snuck in at 49 ... So freakish was all of this, rumours quickly took grip that Brian was hyping the chart, buying in boxes of Love Me Do to fake its position ... No one considered Brian’s membership of a committee that challenged suspicions of chart malpractice, or his resistance to faking My Bonnie into even his own shop’s published Top Twenty, or – most striking of all – the fact that, in 1962, it made no difference how many copies a shop sold of any record because the charts weren’t computed that way. Nems had been a ‘chart return’ operation for years – it still provided data to Melody Maker and also now to Record Retailer – but those papers’ weekly phone calls or printed questionnaires didn’t ask for sales figures, only for a shop’s bestselling records ranked from 1 to 30; the papers awarded thirty points to the number 1 record down to one point for the number 30, and calculated an overall national total. All the charts were produced this way, as they still were in America. Brian Epstein had no need to buy ten thousand Love Me Dos to fake it into the charts; he didn’t even need to buy one. He did buy a couple of thousand copies, because the majority of Beatles fans wanted to buy it from Nems’ three stores, and because he was the manager and agent of this band and EMI had sent him one free copy.

Interesting info! But I would challenge Lewisohn's statement about how the charting process was done in America. That's not quite right, and I'll have to follow up with more info on that when I can find it. Sales were tabulated on how many copies were ordered. I don't know when or for how long that was done, but you didn't have individual record shops saying "we sold 200 copies of Record X" every week, it was how many copies were shipped.

I think. Lol.  Cheesy

Just adding to this and what I think are some errors in Lewisohn's description: The chart systems in place at the time Lewisohn is describing were different between the US and the UK in one other major way: Radio airplay. In the US the charts also factored in regional radio airplay and individual stations' weekly surveys and airplay logs of what records their DJ's were playing. In some cases well throughout the 60's a record could be a top-5 hit in Boston but do absolutely nothing in Miami or whatever other regions were surveyed. This happened to the Beach Boys on multiple occasions, where a single like Wild Honey went top-5 in Detroit and Philly but barely cracked top-20 in other regions. So when the overall airplay was averaged out and the chart positions tabulated, Wild Honey looked like more of a slow-starter overall than it was in certain cities and areas.

In the UK, they had the government-run BBC playing the records. I don't believe any charts tabulated airplay as the US did because there was only one outlet for airplay, the BBC. If people wanted to hear rock and roll up to a certain time, they'd tune into Radio Luxembourg or later the pirate ship-based radio stations like Caroline. And those sure as hell were not being factored into chart positions in the music papers anywhere near what Billboard or Cashbox was doing in the US.

Just pointing that out to say there's more to the background than what Lewisohn suggested in that commentary, and even though it was great to read about the myth-busting regarding Brian Epstein stacking the deck with the Love Me Do single, it isn't entirely accurate to say the US and the UK did music charts the same way.
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« Reply #4166 on: September 10, 2021, 09:25:45 AM »

Don't know if this has been posted here yet  -- but Joshilyn, these are brilliant and so important.
Keep going!!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5OjiGUoB_0E

Cool, with these kind of songwriters, it's pretty much almost all in the voicings.

There's a lot of stuff to discuss re: Feel Flows music and production. I've been humbly thinking of suggesting a new thread about it. Just a tiny example: the sound of the backing vocals excerpt of "Break Away". Are these slowed down?

More accurately, some of those vocals were recorded with the tape running fast, and so played back at "normal" speed they sound lower and slower.

I actually think those were all recorded as-is, just with unusually low harmony voicings. Sounds like a Reggie Dingleberry idea.
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« Reply #4167 on: September 10, 2021, 10:49:09 AM »

Is the Dennis material from the new set all that exists, or all that was recorded, of his solo project?
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« Reply #4168 on: September 10, 2021, 12:30:58 PM »

Don't know if this has been posted here yet  -- but Joshilyn, these are brilliant and so important.
Keep going!!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5OjiGUoB_0E

Cool, with these kind of songwriters, it's pretty much almost all in the voicings.

There's a lot of stuff to discuss re: Feel Flows music and production. I've been humbly thinking of suggesting a new thread about it. Just a tiny example: the sound of the backing vocals excerpt of "Break Away". Are these slowed down?

More accurately, some of those vocals were recorded with the tape running fast, and so played back at "normal" speed they sound lower and slower.

I actually think those were all recorded as-is, just with unusually low harmony voicings. Sounds like a Reggie Dingleberry idea.

I agree they're singing low anyway, but to me it sounds more natural varispeeded up by about 5%.  It's not like double speed or anything.  Buy you may be right -- it's right on the line for me.
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« Reply #4169 on: September 10, 2021, 12:39:38 PM »

And it's definitely worth noting anyway that it is pretty unusual to hear all the backing vocalists on a Beach Boys song keeping the chord voicings that low.  It's kinda nice.
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« Reply #4170 on: September 10, 2021, 12:41:20 PM »

And -- if it is slightly tape-speed altered, and was Reggie's idea to do that, wouldn't it be hilarious?  One minute he's speeding up the tape to make Brian sound like a 10 year old, the next he wants the guys to sound as manly as possible.
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« Reply #4171 on: September 10, 2021, 12:48:35 PM »

Wasn't it Bruce that had a quote at some point years ago that he didn't like that they sounded like "old men" on "Break Away?"

Which of course doesn't answer whether they ran the tape off-speed for that final chorus of backing vocals.

It sure sounds like they ran the tape fast to make the voices sound slow/low on regular playback. I can't think of another case of a full spread of backing vocals like that sounding so obviously off-speed. They were indeed gifted vocalists individually and collectively; perhaps they could actually mimic slowed-down tape. But it has all the hallmarks of slowed-down/altered speed.
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« Reply #4172 on: September 10, 2021, 02:00:21 PM »

There's one more POOPS/HUBBA HUBBA-era song that was left off the set.
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« Reply #4173 on: September 10, 2021, 02:01:50 PM »

Ooh…saved for a possible end of year dump, perhaps ? 🧐

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« Reply #4174 on: September 10, 2021, 02:21:43 PM »

Are we allowed to know any details of it?
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