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Author Topic: Dean Torrence influence on Brian Wilson  (Read 32909 times)
Mark A. Moore
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« Reply #150 on: March 04, 2018, 02:33:02 PM »

I hear a big difference in production on those two songs, regardless of Morgan or Capitol, and regardless of who produced them—a different sound using the same players (Beach Boys). But I still love the originals.

Spector was an influence, for sure, as I said. He had his own sound and style. But I would argue they weren't "Phil's musicians." I think that's one of the fallacies of modern music journalism. They were not unique to his productions. The union players pre-dated that era, as did the union itself. Jan, as an example, began working with those musicians in 1958 (Joe Lubin's productions) and was leading recording sessions with those musicians by late 1961 and early '62.

The union players in Hollywood were everyone's musicians.

Jan had a different sound than Spector, and the signature sound Jan began developing in March 1963 was dense and sophisticated, but still not the Wall of Sound.


A few comments and some questions for discussion:

The players Phil used were among hundreds in the union book. All you had to do if you wanted a drummer was check who was available and either through a contractor you'd hire or on your own, you could put in a call and hire them. Drummers alone, there were dozens if not a few hundred names for hire. Same with guitarists and whoever else. But the point with Spector is that the same basic core group of musicians he was using regularly became the same core group Brian and Jan would start using when their productions warranted those larger groups. It's no accident Hal and Earl were often the drummers, Billy, Carole, Tommy, Ray, Glen were on guitars, and the list goes on.

They were not random choices, and they were far from the only competent players available to hire. Yet both Brian and Jan seemed to be hiring the same core players as Spector was using. I don't see that as coincidence as much as a clue that they were trying to do things in their productions similar if not the same as what Phil was doing.

I still come back to the fact that for those first few years, The Beach Boys were a self-contained band who played on the records and also were the same core players you'd see at a live show. Like The Beatles, for those first few years with few exceptions the BB's and Beatles played the majority of instruments you heard because they were a band. Jan and Dean obviously were not a band, nor did they have a core backing band. So the necessity existed for Jan to hire players to play on the sessions, more than it being an aesthetic or forward-thinking choice. And when both Jan and Brian started advancing and needing more textures and instruments for what they wanted to do, they hired nearly the same players Phil had been using, where once again the union book had many others to choose from.

Mark, you also made a comment earlier about Jan copying his own parts from the score for the players, and using the "best" copyists in Hollywood when more parts needed to be extracted.

In that case, Jan wasn't doing anything that wasn't standard practice. Nearly every session where a large number of parts needed to be copied would be sent to a copy house. In the case of the artists, area, and time period we're talking about, the go-to place was run by Bob Ross (not the painter, lol). In those days the copying was done using onion skin, that's how primitive it still was. And there were writers who did that kind of grunt work for Bob Ross' copy house when they were working their way up. Among them, a young Jimmy Webb if I recall. So it wasn't as much Jan using the best because of anything other than that's how it was done. And in terms of the meticulous scores Jan would write, that was how he worked. Other producers and arrangers worked differently. It reminded me of the "Philly Soul" sound in the 70's, coming out of Philadelphia International studios. Gamble and Huff would come in with sketches and head arrangements, where they'd do what Brian would do and get the players grooving on different things and develop it that way, often no more than a chord chart with some specific hits notated. Thom Bell used to come in with a briefcase full of copied parts and a full score with every note indicated to be played. Point is, both ways worked and Philly had an amazing string of hits from Gamble/Huff and Bell in the 70's. There was no better way nor more merit or kudos to either one based on how they ran their sessions because both were charting hit after hit coming out of Philly. Some wanted each note written, others wanted to see where the group of players would take the sketch.

One more point: Earlier you mentioned Brian's productions outside the Beach Boys as not having chart success. Also, how Jan had a producer's contract under his agreement with Adler, or Liberty, or whoever it was. My question is this: If Jan had a contract as producer, did he try to produce any artists outside J&D, or was he ever contracted to do so? If he did, what was the success of Jan's productions? If it's relevant to mention how Brian's outside productions stiffed on the charts, it's relevant to ask what if anything did Jan produce outside J&D that had success in the 60's when he had such a producer contract?

That's another very specific point where I think Brian was trying to emulate Spector whose whole gig was producing a stable of artists rather than one group or entity. At the end of '63 I believe he even had a separate publishing company set up with Mike for this purpose of doing what Spector was doing with Philles records and all his productions that included publishing and songwriting. I'd suggest Brian was actually going for it and taking in outside artists and projects where he could do what Spector did and produce (and write) for a number of artists outside the Beach Boys. he put it aside but never gave it up, and that was the impetus for forming Brother at the end of '66 into '67.

Question: What and when was the first session where Jan used the Bill Putnam studios, United or Western, for his productions?



Jan’s arrangements were submitted through the union, via AFM contracts similar to the tracking sessions for musicians; and he was paid separately for his arrangements, based on the number of pages, etc.

When Jan didn’t do the copying himself, he used Vern Yocum, Roy Caton, Virgil Evans, Jerrold Immel, or Roger Farris, for the most part, with a few exceptions here and there.

Having signed with Nevins-Kirshner , Jan had begun using United by October 1961. He began leading sessions regularly at United and Western by February 1962, especially for tracks for which he received the official arranging credit, whether for J&D or other artists. That’s how he transitioned into the full-time producer’s role while Lou Adler was still nominally in charge. Jan took the top spot in late ’62.

He worked also worked in the other studios in town, like Conway, Audio Arts, Radio Recorders, Sound Recorders, etc.

Earl Palmer was J&D’s sole drummer until late 1962. In ’61 and ’62 the musicians Jan worked with included guys like Ernie Freeman, Rene Hall, Tommy Allsup, Jerry Allsion, Red Callender, Gene Estes, etc. Many different players.

Jan was primarily a self-produced artist, which was rare in that era. It was just coming into play. The production companies signed Jan to arrange and produce records for Jan & Dean plus anyone else they might assign to him on a limited basis.

Jan didn’t have much outside success as a producer. But thanks to his production contract he was paid handsomely as a producer, whether the songs were hit records or not. The same went for his arrangements—a separate stream of income. He produced “Judy Loves Me” by Johnny Crawford, which barely cracked the Top 100 at #95. And he produced “Perfidia” by the Matadors, which had success overseas, hitting #1 in the Philippines.

Some of his productions remained unreleased, like the Pixie track, the songs he did for Ronnie Height, and some “Girl Group” Blossoms-related stuff. But the material, and in some cases the demos, still exists.

Jan got outside arranging credits for releases by Deane Hawley (’62), Sonny Curtis (’63), and Johnny Crawford (’63).

But Jan had a little outside success as a songwriter with chart records by Billy Ward & His Dominoes (1958); the Angels (1963); the Rip Chords (1964); Johnny Crawford (1964); and Ronny and the Daytonas (1965). And Jan’s composition “Bucket T” was on the Who’s #1 EP Ready Steady Who.

Jan had some interesting outside writing credits that didn’t chart, such as “Cherish My Love” by the Glens (1960, a Jan & Arnie era composition), “Just For Tonight” by Judy & Jill (’63), and “He Don’t Love Me,” a B-side for Shelley Fabares (’64), and others.

I mentioned Brian’s outside stuff because the prevailing opinion in Beach Boys Fandom is that Jan brought nothing to the table. So by that logic, all of Brian’s outside compositions for the artists I mentioned should have been instant hit records—but they were not.
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« Reply #151 on: March 04, 2018, 06:44:22 PM »

There is one area that the BB copied from Jan and Dean.  Just watched the 1980 live performance of J and D and it was like a look into the future of what BB shows would be during the 80s and 90s. Oldies heavy, shtick ( the skateboarder), the beach wear, the DWD/DDD medley.
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Hickory Violet Part IV
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« Reply #152 on: March 05, 2018, 12:14:43 AM »

Jan was primarily a self-produced artist, which was rare in that era. It was just coming into play.

It is highly significant to this discussion that Jan Berry, very much at the vangaurd of this new breed of record producer, was one of Brian's initial mentors.

It is also worth pointing out that the rather dismissive attitude towards Jan Berry on this thread is identical to the derision that used to be directed towards the Beach Boys. When I became a fan in the 80s, it was an upwards struggle to convince people there was something of value to this music when they had already made their minds up.

Jan Berry was no Brian Wilson, but don't dismiss his productions so readily. Here is the confident, self contained producer that Brian observed prior to his own adoption of, and recognition within, the (freshly redefined) role of producer.


« Last Edit: March 05, 2018, 12:44:07 AM by Hickory Violet Part IV » Logged
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« Reply #153 on: March 05, 2018, 06:28:43 AM »

Nobody has been minimizing Jan Berry for the fun of it. This all goes back to the original posts in the thread from the original poster, which did not propose that we find *some way* in which Jan may have been some sort of influence on Brian. The early posts proposed a relatively specific set of areas in which Brian was directly influenced by Jan *AND* Dean. The original post did not mention solely Jan Berry's early era role being self-produced. It mentioned arrangements, falsetto voicing, use of the Wrecking Crew, and so on.

Pointing out that Jan Berry produced his own records and made a lot of money off of his production work even when many of his records were unsuccessful and in some cases unreleased (people barely remember *Brian's* outside production works, who actually remembers Jan's?), has nothing to do with how much Brian's work was informed by or influenced by Jan, or Jan & Dean.

I'm not sure if some folks jumped into the middle of this thread and saw people pointing out why maybe J&D have been overrated by some subset of BB fans, and got defensive because it appeared as though people were just randomly trashing J&D. But the original crux of the thread was a (in my opinion) heavily overstated series of posts concerning how *big* of an influence Jan Berry and Jan&Dean were on Brian and his work. I think in tandem with this often comes a penchant for lumping Jan Berry and Brian Wilson in together as peers. And that just was not the case at all, either in terms of looking at what they were outputting in the earliest BB era of 1963, and *certainly* is not the case when we take a step back and look at their catalog of music and impact on other music, etc., even just focusing in on the pre-accident 1966-and-earlier era.

I think a once-in-a-blue-moon reality check regarding J&D is appropriate. And frankly, I think people have gone relatively lightly on actually examining J&D's work separately from anything to do with potential influence on Brian and the BBs. That is, over all these years I think people haven't been rampantly pointing out the many flaws of pre-1967 J&D, including their mediocre singing, overall lack of originality, the stiff quality of their output, and so on.

As I pointed out in an early post, trying to over-blow Jan Berry's work or talent or his and J&D's influence on Brian Wilson, etc., all does a *disservice* to Jan Berry and J&D, because it then forces folks to point out their limitations rather than being able to just focus on the good material they did produce.

I still don't understand why people can't just say they like something, or that something is good. It always seems to need some additional context. It has to be "influential" or "trail-blazing", or it has to be "better than" something else, or "as good as" something else.

Here's an exercise: Try talking about music (or a movie, etc.) that you like *without* mentioning any other artist/band/album/movie, etc.  

That's not to say looking at how artists *did* influence each other can't be an interesting topic. But if you really think Jan Berry was a major influence on Brian (or a peer on par with Brian), be prepared for people who know their stuff to point out why this isn't the case very much.

There are many people who major artists like Brian Wilson came in the orbit of, people who by virtue of simply being older or having already attained some level of professional status, were at some point "ahead" or "on par." Look at the Beatles, who *backed* Tony Sheridan, who comparatively at that point was a big dude who could actually get a record contract. Tony Sheridan was also (as apparently not many folks know) actually a really good guitarist. An okay singer. But the point is, there was a brief moment in time where he was "ahead" of the Beatles, and then they were maybe technically peers for a microsecond as the Beatles quickly surpassed all who they came into contact with. Read Lewisohn's "Tune In"; there *were* other British bands who were "bigger" than the Beatles on some level at some point during their ascent.

But what makes the Beatles or Brian/the BBs different from *most* artists is that they surpassed nearly all if not literally all of their contemporaries *very quickly.*

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« Reply #154 on: March 05, 2018, 08:53:12 AM »

Thanks to Hey Jude for mentioning the specific context that generated this thread. Nate's first sentence that initiated the discussion was "I'd say that Jan & Dean and The Beach Boys had an equal role in terms of developing what we know as the California Sound." As I said earlier I don't let these type of historical inaccuracies go by without countering with some evidence which I did, strong statistical evidence. I also have my opinion which I also stated as "my opinion". If you think the Beach Boys and J&D are equal in the way Nate stated or any other important way then you are at 180 degrees opposite of what I think. Most of you know who I am. Many of you have read my published stuff, thank you for that. I'm not in the habit of saying or writing things that I don't feel strongly about. This is one. Some others that I have ranted about seemed to change some minds through the years. Remember when Dennis Wilson was widely considered the least talented of the Beach Boys? He was not, and I didn't let that stand when someone stated it. Remember when David Marks was widely considered to have no importance to the Beach Boys genesis and history? That was untrue and I didn't let it stand when stated that way. Remember when so many people assumed the Beach Boys barely played instruments on any of their classic material? That was factually untrue and I did not let it stand when stated as such. I will do the same when someone states that Jan & Dean and the Beach Boys are somehow equal in their historical importance. It's what I do.

Many have called out Howie for his posts, posts which I find hilarious and delightfully honest. Courageous too, because he is a public figure, he makes his living as a rock writer, he posts his REAL NAME on this board, and takes the heat for his posts if they hit a raw nerve. It's easy to hide behind a funny board name "Tommy Wiseau" or whatever and throw bolts at a known entity. But Howie has his opinions, he posts his name when he states them, and if you meet him in person he'll do the same because he's confident and he knows rock history as well as anyone I've ever met. I've met and talked to Brian Wilson a dozen or two dozen times, and I know Howie knows Brian way better than I ever will. I've only been to Brian's house once, Howie drove me there. When Howie lays down an opinion, regardless of how much you disagree, remind yourself this is someone who has actually discussed Jan Berry with Brian, one on one, many times. He doesn't need to rely on a 18 year old quote to back his knowledge up. He can just ask Brian, or refer to an interview he did with Brian 10 years ago, 9 years ago, 8 years ago and on. I think we all benefit from having someone with that kind of access in our midst even if you don't agree with his take. At least his take is coming from a place of real knowledge and direct access.

I've devoted a big chunk of my life to learning, researching and sharing the things I've uncovered, discovered and grown to know about the Beach Boys. One of those is definitely that Jan & Dean don't deserve to be credited as equals to the Beach Boys. J&D have made a mark, they made some successful records, Jan had some success as a producer and then met with a tragic incident, it's all fascinating and some of it relates to the Beach Boys story. But the Beach Boys are something beyond Jan, and beyond most things in pop music. They were kissed by the spirit, by God or whatever. They are on a level that is still underrated in many circles, but as time goes on more and more people understand. Brian and his brothers, cousin and friend and neighbor were the conduit of a unique spiritual gift for the world. It will live as long as people listen to music. IMO they have no equal.
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« Reply #155 on: March 05, 2018, 09:30:49 AM »

Well, hopefully neither of those posts were directed at me, as I've made it clear I'm not saying they were even close to equal. Perhaps a re-reading of my posts is in order?

I think it's an interesting discussion, Jan's  position as a self produced artist, which as Mark Moore has pointed out was rare, and whether or not this was an influence on Brian. Are people really denying Jan was an early mentor to Brian? Also Brian saw a lot of studio techniques for the first time through Jan.

But perhaps he put his hands over his eyes.


I realise a discussion about the complexity of human relationships is difficult on an Aspergers Friendly site such as this, so I'll back off now before the people who 'know their stuff' put me in my place.   LOL

Peace guys Smiley


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« Reply #156 on: March 05, 2018, 09:44:01 AM »

What Jon said.

Especially about the Tommy Wiseau stuff. Ad hominem stuff *about people on this board* should never be allowed, but it's especially annoying coming from a person who posts under a full pseudonym.

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« Reply #157 on: March 05, 2018, 10:27:20 AM »

Nobody has been minimizing Jan Berry for the fun of it. This all goes back to the original posts in the thread from the original poster, which did not propose that we find *some way* in which Jan may have been some sort of influence on Brian. The early posts proposed a relatively specific set of areas in which Brian was directly influenced by Jan *AND* Dean. The original post did not mention solely Jan Berry's early era role being self-produced. It mentioned arrangements, falsetto voicing, use of the Wrecking Crew, and so on.

Pointing out that Jan Berry produced his own records and made a lot of money off of his production work even when many of his records were unsuccessful and in some cases unreleased (people barely remember *Brian's* outside production works, who actually remembers Jan's?), has nothing to do with how much Brian's work was informed by or influenced by Jan, or Jan & Dean.

I'm not sure if some folks jumped into the middle of this thread and saw people pointing out why maybe J&D have been overrated by some subset of BB fans, and got defensive because it appeared as though people were just randomly trashing J&D. But the original crux of the thread was a (in my opinion) heavily overstated series of posts concerning how *big* of an influence Jan Berry and Jan&Dean were on Brian and his work. I think in tandem with this often comes a penchant for lumping Jan Berry and Brian Wilson in together as peers. And that just was not the case at all, either in terms of looking at what they were outputting in the earliest BB era of 1963, and *certainly* is not the case when we take a step back and look at their catalog of music and impact on other music, etc., even just focusing in on the pre-accident 1966-and-earlier era.

I think a once-in-a-blue-moon reality check regarding J&D is appropriate. And frankly, I think people have gone relatively lightly on actually examining J&D's work separately from anything to do with potential influence on Brian and the BBs. That is, over all these years I think people haven't been rampantly pointing out the many flaws of pre-1967 J&D, including their mediocre singing, overall lack of originality, the stiff quality of their output, and so on.

As I pointed out in an early post, trying to over-blow Jan Berry's work or talent or his and J&D's influence on Brian Wilson, etc., all does a *disservice* to Jan Berry and J&D, because it then forces folks to point out their limitations rather than being able to just focus on the good material they did produce.

I still don't understand why people can't just say they like something, or that something is good. It always seems to need some additional context. It has to be "influential" or "trail-blazing", or it has to be "better than" something else, or "as good as" something else.

Here's an exercise: Try talking about music (or a movie, etc.) that you like *without* mentioning any other artist/band/album/movie, etc.  

That's not to say looking at how artists *did* influence each other can't be an interesting topic. But if you really think Jan Berry was a major influence on Brian (or a peer on par with Brian), be prepared for people who know their stuff to point out why this isn't the case very much.

There are many people who major artists like Brian Wilson came in the orbit of, people who by virtue of simply being older or having already attained some level of professional status, were at some point "ahead" or "on par." Look at the Beatles, who *backed* Tony Sheridan, who comparatively at that point was a big dude who could actually get a record contract. Tony Sheridan was also (as apparently not many folks know) actually a really good guitarist. An okay singer. But the point is, there was a brief moment in time where he was "ahead" of the Beatles, and then they were maybe technically peers for a microsecond as the Beatles quickly surpassed all who they came into contact with. Read Lewisohn's "Tune In"; there *were* other British bands who were "bigger" than the Beatles on some level at some point during their ascent.

But what makes the Beatles or Brian/the BBs different from *most* artists is that they surpassed nearly all if not literally all of their contemporaries *very quickly.*
 
Great post. Possibly the best I've seen on this board in quite some time.  Bow Bow
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« Reply #158 on: March 05, 2018, 10:32:13 AM »

Legit not trying to be a jackass, but we should have a J&D/other BBs influenced acts subforum.

Mark A. Moore and GF know their sh*t!!!!! Cool
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« Reply #159 on: March 05, 2018, 10:47:00 AM »

I don't consider J&D to be equal to The Beach Boys. Never have. I do, however, think that they deserve a mention along with The Beach Boys as being in the same genre of music(surf, car,), as well as being influential in the overall California sound of the time.
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« Reply #160 on: March 05, 2018, 10:50:36 AM »

[quote author=Hickory Violet Part IV link=topic=25801.msg631582#msg631582 date=1520271049.


I realise a discussion about the complexity of human relationships is difficult on an Aspergers Friendly site such as this, so I'll back off now before the people who 'know their stuff' put me in my place.  LOL



[/quote]WTF???  Brow
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« Reply #161 on: March 05, 2018, 12:01:24 PM »

[quote author=Hickory Violet Part IV link=topic=25801.msg631582#msg631582 date=1520271049.


I realise a discussion about the complexity of human relationships is difficult on an Aspergers Friendly site such as this, so I'll back off now before the people who 'know their stuff' put me in my place.  LOL



WTF???  Brow
[/quote]

I work with lots of Aspies. Fantastic people, but due to their inflexibility of position, their obsession with tiny details (without the ability to see the human / social side), and their near pathological need to be right, entering into any sort of debate with them is an exercise in futilty.

Apparently, most people are on the spectrum to some degree,  but on a niche music site you can probably times that by 10  LOL


 
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« Reply #162 on: March 05, 2018, 12:19:32 PM »

Quote from: Hickory Violet Part IV link=topic=25801.msg631582#msg631582 date=1520271049.


I realise a discussion about the complexity of human relationships is difficult on an Aspergers Friendly site such as this, so I'll back off now before the people who 'know their stuff' put me in my place.  LOL



WTF???  Brow

I work with lots of Aspies. Fantastic people, but due to their inflexibility of position, their obsession with tiny details (without the ability to see the human / social side), and their near pathological need to be right, entering into any sort of debate with them is an exercise in futilty.

Apparently, most people are on the spectrum to some degree,  but on a niche music site you can probably times that by 10  LOL


Just a reminder that when someone posted here implying the people on the board were sociopaths, I'm pretty sure they were immediately banned.

Having been on the internet for around 25-ish years, I'm pretty sure any group of congregating people don't like to be labeled with anything, and certainly not a medical diagnosis of Asperger Syndrome. Implying it's okay for you to make fun of the topic because you work with people with the condition, or implying most people are "on the spectrum", will not tend to quell the offense people (rightly) take by such comments. It's offensive to the board and offensive to people who have the condition.

I'm personally not a fan of a *participating* member of a board coyly stepping back and folding their arms and diagnosing the entire board with a condition.

Not that implying individual members of this board are afflicted with any particular medical condition would be any more appropriate.

I'm less offended by the content of the comment and more annoyed that someone would go on a board and make such a judgment and *not* understand that it could offend just about any member of the board.
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« Reply #163 on: March 05, 2018, 12:44:23 PM »

Aspergers people are brilliant, and whilst I was exaggerating,  there are several Aspies on this site, most definitely. Aspergers people aren't sociopaths,  but they are tough to debate with.

It was meant affectionately, if anything, but thanks for 'Jude'splaining' things for me
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« Reply #164 on: March 05, 2018, 12:48:15 PM »

Quote
It's offensive to the board and offensive to people who have the condition.

No kidding.

"Aspies" is not exactly the friendliest term, anyway. And to use Aspergers as an insult is quite offensive.

7 day time out- it may be shortened, or may be lengthened. I need to discuss it with Craig and come to a consensus as far as length goes.
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« Reply #165 on: March 05, 2018, 01:13:43 PM »

I agree with the notion that The Beach Boys and Jan & Dean aren't equal, in terms of their overall output and impact. They didn't revolutionize the world with stuff like Pet Sounds and Good Vibrations. My opinion is that they, together, created the California Sound. Or maybe I'll expand a little. Brian created the California Sound and Jan refined it. Production wise, Surf City was better than anything Brian had done to this point. Production value. All of Brian's songs from this era sound like vocals over pretty thin backing tracks. But Surf City's backing track sounded huge!! Two drum sets, guitars, bass, piano, all locked in playing as tight as The Wrecking Crew ever did. They're are multiple voices singing the lead vocal, including BW, slightly off-mic. It just has a huge sound! And after Surf City is cut, you see Brian's backing tracks begin to evolve. I'd say you can definitely hear Jan's influence on the backing track of Fun, Fun, Fun. This was probably Brian's cleanest "Jan-est" production to date. Was he conscious of this? Who knows. But you've got the doubled guitars, two drum sets (via overdubs. Pretty sure Denny first, Hal overdubbing), double tracked vocals, and an overall tight sound.

The Beach Boys are the alltime greatest band in my opinion. Hands now. No one has ever, or will ever, equal them. But I do think The Beach Boys and Jan & Dean played an equal role in developing what we know as the California SOUND. Not lyrical content (surf, cars, girls, etc) but SOUND. Jan had been cutting records with Wrecking Crew, falsetto leads, and thick harmonies for years. Not saying that Brian copied Jan. But I think Brian took Four Freshman, Chuck Berry, Phil Spector, AND JAN BERRY/JAN&DEAN, when developing his own sound. Some more than others obviously. The Four Freshman would be the most impact influence I think.
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« Reply #166 on: March 05, 2018, 01:19:14 PM »

Aspergers people are brilliant, and whilst I was exaggerating,  there are several Aspies on this site, most definitely. Aspergers people aren't sociopaths,  but they are tough to debate with.

It was meant affectionately, if anything, but thanks for 'Jude'splaining' things for me

Just to reiterate again, and I truly mean this as advice for people who haven't seen this type of thing go down on this board in the past:

It's not okay to poke fun at some medical condition because you know people with it, or profess to know a lot about it, or contend a bunch of positive things in relation to the condition. It's still potentially offensive.

Also, I find the idea of trying to "diagnose" anybody on this board or anywhere else on the internet based purely on writings to be highly dubious. That someone would claim to be able to diagnose a condition like Asperger based solely on message board postings also of course calls into question that person's actual expertise on the subject.
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« Reply #167 on: March 05, 2018, 01:35:26 PM »

I agree with the notion that The Beach Boys and Jan & Dean aren't equal, in terms of their overall output and impact. They didn't revolutionize the world with stuff like Pet Sounds and Good Vibrations. My opinion is that they, together, created the California Sound. Or maybe I'll expand a little. Brian created the California Sound and Jan refined it. Production wise, Surf City was better than anything Brian had done to this point. Production value. All of Brian's songs from this era sound like vocals over pretty thin backing tracks. But Surf City's backing track sounded huge!! Two drum sets, guitars, bass, piano, all locked in playing as tight as The Wrecking Crew ever did. They're are multiple voices singing the lead vocal, including BW, slightly off-mic. It just has a huge sound! And after Surf City is cut, you see Brian's backing tracks begin to evolve. I'd say you can definitely hear Jan's influence on the backing track of Fun, Fun, Fun. This was probably Brian's cleanest "Jan-est" production to date. Was he conscious of this? Who knows. But you've got the doubled guitars, two drum sets (via overdubs. Pretty sure Denny first, Hal overdubbing), double tracked vocals, and an overall tight sound.

"Surf City" is a cool track. I don't think it's nearly as epic as you're painting it. It has never struck me as sounding "huge." It sounds like a group of session musicians knocking out a clean performance. It sounds good. I have nothing bad to say about it. But it doesn't "sound" huge even in the context of early 1963. It doesn't have the bombast of a Spector production. The vocals don't sound nearly as rich as even the *earliest* BB recordings (and, not to hammer the point too hard, but both Jan and Dean were mediocre singers, borderline flatting and sharping occasionally).

I also wouldn't call the early 1963 Brian Wilson backing tracks "thin." Setting aside what others have already discussed (that the BB's were a *self-contained* band and therefore in the early era played on their own records), I'd say a number of the backing tracks on the "Surfin' USA" album sound full and thick. (Ironically, I'd say it was when Brian got into the 1965-66 era where his lush backing tracks were *mixed* a bit thin-sounding in favor of vocals due to the way he was bouncing tracks, etc.). The title track "Surfin' USA", "Farmer's Daughter", etc.

If we want to move just a *few months* past the recording of "Surf City" and bring in the "Surfer Girl" album, then it's even more stark. Brian's production, with mostly the core band playing (with Al augmenting on some tracks) sound easily as full and lush as "Surf City."

Again, we can talk about the positive attributes of "Surf City" without trying to say its production "betters" the work of Brian Wilson.  

Just like, I wouldn't kick of a review of how great "Pet Sounds" is by first contending above all else that it's better than anything the Beatles had done up to that point. It's not that there's not room to allow for such an opinion. But it's going to undercut the praise that "Pet Sounds" absolutely deserves.

I'm not saying I've never fallen into the trap of describing someone by comparing it to something else, but I truly think sometimes it's best to try to praise something *without* saying it's better than something else.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2018, 01:40:30 PM by HeyJude » Logged

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« Reply #168 on: March 05, 2018, 03:01:27 PM »

What Jon said.

Especially about the Tommy Wiseau stuff. Ad hominem stuff *about people on this board* should never be allowed, but it's especially annoying coming from a person who posts under a full pseudonym.



You're right. I fully regret using a persons looks to make a point, especially when I was trying to make a point about standing up for overweight people and handicapped people. I stepped into a trap of my own making and I regret it. Though I have issues with Howie and how he portrays others, he didn't deserve that kind of treatment and also deserved a true apology, which I have not given him. I don't expect him to accept it and that's okay. The only issue I truly take with him is that he is claims I'm looking at photos of his family. Not quite. I have no interest in that, nor do I think that's right in any way. I had remembered what he looked like from years ago seeing him tagged in a Facebook friend's post (I think) and was just Googling him to check. Now was that right, just to prove a point? ABSOLUTELY NOT.

Maybe it's the fighting with the Cam Mott's and the AGD's, maybe it's the constant politicization of the world, but regardless, it's on me for breaching the boards rules. I've stepped back and realized how stupid it is to be fighting with other Beach Boys fans!!! There aren't zillions of people who can discuss the grandness of "Wake The World" and "Do You Like Worms" and "Caroline No" and therefore, I think I need to chill and be happy that there is a great forum like this to discuss The Beach Boys.

Anyway, with all that said, I think I do deserve to be penalized for not following board rules and attacking a valued member in that way. While I hope I could keep my reading privileges I think it would be fair if I were banned from posting for a month or two. I truly regret what I did and maybe I can make a comeback if the moderators and other posters find it right. If not, I understand. Sorry for clogging up this interesting thread with this, but I felt it had to be done.
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« Reply #169 on: March 05, 2018, 03:28:45 PM »

Hey Jude, I'd agree with that. One artist's achievement doesn't take away from anothers. I was just comparing Brian and Jan's work at the time.
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« Reply #170 on: March 05, 2018, 04:06:02 PM »

What a relief!!!

The adult male who posts THOUSANDS of times on a message board using numerous aliases assures me, he's only stalking/collecting photos of ME -- and NOT my small children.
Whew!!!

Tommy -- or whatever your name is -- stop PM-ing me.
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« Reply #171 on: March 05, 2018, 04:34:20 PM »

I think we all tend to, at least occasionally, take ourselves a bit too seriously.  It can lead to some of the arguments on this board.  My opinion is no more valid than anyone else's here, because we're all entitled to our opinions.  I happen to think that part of the charm of Jan and Dean was their not taking themselves too seriously.  Others find fault with that aspect of Jan and Dean.  To each his own.

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« Reply #172 on: March 05, 2018, 04:39:40 PM »

What a relief!!!

The adult male who posts THOUSANDS of times on a message board using numerous aliases assures me, he's only stalking/collecting photos of ME -- and NOT my small children.
Whew!!!

Tommy -- or whatever your name is -- stop PM-ing me.

You seem to have an obsession with looking at photos of small children. I would guess that something that you yourself need to deal with on your own sir.
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« Reply #173 on: March 05, 2018, 04:44:58 PM »

Mods???
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Jim V.
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« Reply #174 on: March 05, 2018, 04:55:15 PM »

Mods???

Yeah mods.....where are ya? I'm being painted as some kind of child stalker by a man who at one moment talks about his children and then at another time encourages our board members to use dugs instead of listening to Jan & Dean.
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