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Author Topic: Dean Torrence influence on Brian Wilson  (Read 32911 times)
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« Reply #75 on: March 01, 2018, 06:42:47 PM »

No officers of the Jan and Dean fan club in this thread. Ha ha ha ha BB just in another league overall than Jan and Dean but personally I like  Deadmans Curve, Little Old Lady, Ride the Wild Surf and Surf City more than anything on Surfin Safari and most of Surfin USA . Just my preference.
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« Reply #76 on: March 01, 2018, 06:54:25 PM »

More proof that over-crediting Jan and Dean or Jan Berry in particular doesn't do them any favors. What I've had issues with is when I read comments both published and from regular people that take things which are simply not true and state them as if they read it or saw it somewhere so it must be the truth. Like seeing various comments through the years that Brian Wilson "stole" his ideas and sounds from Jan Berry.

It's simply not true.

But when you consider a TV movie bio came out roughly 40 years ago that had Jan getting an idea to write a song about surfing while carrying his board to the water, going into the studio with session players to record a song called "Surfin", followed by a scene where Jan, Dean, and a girl named Linda are driving a Vette as "Surfin Safari" comes on the radio and they start talking about how the Beach Boys stole the ideas or something after the girl thought it was J&D's song, a lot of people started believing that was the truth.

People believe crap like that if they see it on TV - sad but true. Same thing happened with "Summer Dreams" and "An American Family", which were presenting supposedly factual things that happened with the Beach Boys to fans which were off the charts absurd. That's the stuff that needs to be called out and corrected.

I would reply to specifics that were posted, but if someone calls any part of Don't Worry Baby "horrid" and claims it is an example of a lack of musicianship and production technique, that may be opinion which is fine. But I'd suggest getting some Q-Tips and listening again after a good ear cleaning session. It's one of the best crafted records of the 1960's if not of all time. It sounds beautiful, instruments and voices. But that's my opinion.

The music charts and numbers tell the story about Jan And Dean pretty well. But to keep seeing this revisionism, it's hard to understand not just where it's coming from but why it is being done.

Worth a last mention: Is it just me or is it odd that the name Phil Spector doesn't seem to come up here in this discussion about Brian's studio influence and his use of studio musicians when that is perhaps the most obvious influence on Brian making records using Spector's musicians and going for a similar wall of sound that put Phil on the map in the early 60's? Brian would also be a visitor to observe Phil's sessions, musicians have said they used to see him there early on. Yet it was Jan Berry's influence instead of Phil? The difference is, Phil was selling a lot of records when Brian was watching him produce...Jan was not.



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« Reply #77 on: March 01, 2018, 07:01:10 PM »

No officers of the Jan and Dean fan club in this thread. Ha ha ha ha BB just in another league overall than Jan and Dean but personally I like  Deadmans Curve, Little Old Lady, Ride the Wild Surf and Surf City more than anything on Surfin Safari and most of Surfin USA . Just my preference.

Is it coincidence that Brian was involved with writing three of those four songs you mentioned, and Roger Christian the fourth? I'd say those four songs more or less are what most people in general would remember most about Jan And Dean's entire discography.
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relx
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« Reply #78 on: March 01, 2018, 07:21:00 PM »

Frankly, I find the Jan bashing in this thread completely over the top. Was Jan as talented as Brian? Of course not. BW is a one of a kind talent. However, to basically say that Jan was some "dude" who only got somewhere because he was good looking and rich, and whose music was nothing without Brian Wilson, is ridiculous. As was mentioned, Jan had hits before Brian--Jennie Lee, Baby Talk, and Linda, to name three. And, if I'm not mistaken, Jan started using the wrecking crew long before Brian, and I believe was one of the people who showed Brian that you can use outside musicians to improve the sound of your records, which of course reached its fruition with Pet Sounds.

While I agree that the Beach Boys had a much rawer sound early on--I wouldn't go so far as to call it punk--Jan's productions from late 1962 through early 1964, for the most part, sound better than Brian's. Think about something like the instrumental break in "Don't Worry Baby." Maybe the most beautiful BB song, but that break is horrid. Now, the break doesn't detract from the quality of the song, but you can't really say that its a model of musicianship and production technique.

That brings up another issue, the fact that Jan always used top flight musicians, while Brian used mainly the other BB's early on. That gave the BB their raw, harder driving sound, but that sound had nowhere the polish that J&D records of the same period had. Now, "sound" doesn't mean "song." No Jan and Dean song comes close to the beauty of Surfer Girl, In My Room, etc. etc. Brian's songs are amazing, no matter the quality of the production. As a fan, I can enjoy both--the hard drive, melody and incomparable harmonies of early 1960s BB records, and the great, polished sound of J&D records. Obviously, by 1965 Brian had surpassed Jan in every way, and if you listen to Jan's productions in 1965 and 1966, they are not good, and seem stuck in 1963, without the same quality of music. We will never know what would have happened with Jan if he hadn't had the accident, but I imagine he would have become a producer, and worked mainly behind the scenes. Or, maybe gone to medical school and left music completely. I actually think the most beautiful music to come from Jan is post-accident, as there are several songs on Carnival of Sound--the title track, I Know My Mind, Girl You're Blowing My Mind, and even later stuff like Mother Earth--that I find to be better musically than anything he did pre-accident.

And, saying the BB's rocked, while Jan and Dean didn't, is absurd, especially as Brian--as shown by Summer Days and Pet Sounds, among others--rocked less and less the more sophisticated his productions became. I would argue that one of the reasons the BB's reputation suffered in late 1960s is because they completely eschewed the guitar-driven heavy sound that was popular. Basically, they didn't rock. If it is hypothesized that Jan and Dean were out of step with the music of 1967 and beyond--which I tend to believe would have been the case even if Jan hadn't had his accident--Brian and the BB's actually proved that they were out of step with those times, as demonstrated by poor album sales. Again, I am not criticizing the BB's music of the time, much of which is wonderful. But, you can't say that Jan and Dean were big nothings who would have disappeared in the psychedelic late 60s without acknowledging that the BB's in fact did disappear commercially during the time period.

Ultimately, I don't understand the need to pump the BB's and Brian up by tearing down other musicians. Brian Wilson is already widely celebrated as one of the greatest composers in modern pop history, while Jan Berry is a minor musicial footnote. However, minor doesn't mean bad, or that he had no influence at all on Brian, or that he was talentless and his records sucked. I LOVE the BB's, and LIKE Jan and Dean.
I think much of your post and especially your last paragraph misses the simple context that generated some fairly passionate opinions here. The "bashing" as you call it, is an at times tongue in cheek, but no less pointed illustration of our reaction to the absurdity of the Beach Boys and Jan & Dean being compared as equals, which some folks just seem to do over and over. You make a giant point of saying Jan wasn't as talented as Brian...your words... "Of course not".  Considering Nate's sentence that began this thread was "I'd say that Jan & Dean and The Beach Boys had an equal role in terms of developing what we know as the California Sound." I'll defend the Beach Boys against that opinion and other historical inaccuracies any time. It's what I do.
My reaction was mainly against the Jan and Dean are an amateur, novelty act type of comments, which I believe is highly inaccurate.
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« Reply #79 on: March 01, 2018, 07:56:26 PM »

As a musician myself I really try to refrain from judging anybody else’s work. It’s in poor taste. So please understand...when I say I can’t hear what’s so great about them, I’m not trying to be hip or cool or snarky. I just tried to listen to a few tracks with a fresh ear and I still feel the same way (if not stronger) .  To be fair I will listen to the entire catalog (that’s available on YouTube) so I can be more informed...but I really don’t like what I’ve heard.
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« Reply #80 on: March 01, 2018, 09:56:40 PM »

While hardly a be-all, end-all piece of evidence, look at this 1980 Jan and Dean show:

https://youtu.be/eXm3cL-mjdE

10 of the 17 songs are straight up BB covers. That doesn't even include Sidewalk Surfin' and two more BW cowrites. Only four of the 17 songs are not BB related. I'm not saying they would have been expected to bust out late era deep tracks. But they didn't even have a big late 50s/early 60s pool of songs they were pulling from.
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« Reply #81 on: March 01, 2018, 11:02:43 PM »

HeyJude,

Phase II of J&D's career (post-accident era) was all about two things

1. Boosting Jan's confidence: He worked his ass off to remember the lyrics to the Jan & Dean songs. He continued to f*ck up the lyrics for years and years, but he worked his hardest to remember those lyrics. That's why he could only sing so many of his own songs. I'm sure they would have played more J&D songs, as they actually did at the beginning of Phase II, if Jan could remember the words.

2. Please fans/nostalgia/etc: Just like people who see Mike Love, the people who saw J&D during Phase II were there to dance and sing along to surf/hot rod hits. They could care less if it was BBs material or J&D material. Just like how most people seeing Mike's current show, wouldn't even know that Unleash The Love is a Mike Love song, and not The Beach Boys. They were just playing crowd pleasers.
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« Reply #82 on: March 02, 2018, 12:00:56 AM »

I love Jan and Dean. If I was a teen in 1963 I'd more likely have pictures of Jan 😍 Berry on my wall than Brian Wilson.
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« Reply #83 on: March 02, 2018, 12:35:42 AM »

HeyJude,

Phase II of J&D's career (post-accident era) was all about two things

1. Boosting Jan's confidence: He worked his ass off to remember the lyrics to the Jan & Dean songs. He continued to f*ck up the lyrics for years and years, but he worked his hardest to remember those lyrics. That's why he could only sing so many of his own songs. I'm sure they would have played more J&D songs, as they actually did at the beginning of Phase II, if Jan could remember the words.

2. Please fans/nostalgia/etc: Just like people who see Mike Love, the people who saw J&D during Phase II were there to dance and sing along to surf/hot rod hits. They could care less if it was BBs material or J&D material. Just like how most people seeing Mike's current show, wouldn't even know that Unleash The Love is a Mike Love song, and not The Beach Boys. They were just playing crowd pleasers.

But my point is that if Jan and Dean had a truly well-known and remembered back catalog of songs, they wouldn't have needed to basically do a Beach Boys setlist to "please fans", regardless of who was singing them. The Papa Doo Run Run guys could have just as easily taken over leads on some J&D songs. Why didn't they? Because the masses probably only remembered the core 3 or 4 famous J&D songs. They essentially didn't have enough songs to even fill out a 45 minute set. That they not only filled the set with covers, but exclusively BB covers indicates how much their legacy was reliant on sort of piggybacking on the success of the BBs.
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« Reply #84 on: March 02, 2018, 02:44:24 AM »

HeyJude,

Phase II of J&D's career (post-accident era) was all about two things

1. Boosting Jan's confidence: He worked his ass off to remember the lyrics to the Jan & Dean songs. He continued to f*ck up the lyrics for years and years, but he worked his hardest to remember those lyrics. That's why he could only sing so many of his own songs. I'm sure they would have played more J&D songs, as they actually did at the beginning of Phase II, if Jan could remember the words.

2. Please fans/nostalgia/etc: Just like people who see Mike Love, the people who saw J&D during Phase II were there to dance and sing along to surf/hot rod hits. They could care less if it was BBs material or J&D material. Just like how most people seeing Mike's current show, wouldn't even know that Unleash The Love is a Mike Love song, and not The Beach Boys. They were just playing crowd pleasers.

But my point is that if Jan and Dean had a truly well-known and remembered back catalog of songs, they wouldn't have needed to basically do a Beach Boys setlist to "please fans", regardless of who was singing them. The Papa Doo Run Run guys could have just as easily taken over leads on some J&D songs. Why didn't they? Because the masses probably only remembered the core 3 or 4 famous J&D songs. They essentially didn't have enough songs to even fill out a 45 minute set. That they not only filled the set with covers, but exclusively BB covers indicates how much their legacy was reliant on sort of piggybacking on the success of the BBs.

Its been years since Ive seen.it, but I think the Beach Boys poke fun at this a little on the episode of Home Improvement they were it. 
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« Reply #85 on: March 02, 2018, 03:47:12 AM »

Quote from: relx
Think about something like the instrumental break in "Don't Worry Baby." Maybe the most beautiful BB song, but that break is horrid. Now, the break doesn't detract from the quality of the song, but you can't really say that its a model of musicianship and production technique.

Horrid? That instrumental break is perfect for the song. Those chords (E and A) feel like a callback to Shut Down (Db and Ab) and Shut Down Part 2 (intro: D and A) - also about car racing. Unless I am cracking up. For me it lends continuity to an album with different themes and in this case, less is more and makes it stand out, yet fit in. Like the break in Sloop John B where Brian drops the instruments leaving just the voices. Jaw-dropping, actually.

It comes down to feeling. Don't sing it like you wrote it. Sing it like you lived it, breathed it and feel it. A good example is how Carl really let it go in Shortenin' Bread. What a goofy song, but he sounded like he was having a blast.

Jan and Dean had some fun songs. They were often amateurish, but that was part of their charm. Side 4 of the Anthology album was an acquired taste to me, but I can appreciate it more now. I have all of their stuff and love singing the background stuff when listening to Jennie Lee, Baby Talk, Linda, Popsicle (a seriously fun song to sing along with) and the surf/car songs, of course.

But with that said, even if Brian learned things from Jan, it is not indicative of Jan being better or even on par with Brian. It is more likely to be Brian's ability to recognize what he feels is important or what can be useful and adapt it to "his sound". This is not an "imitation is the sincerest form of flattery" case, but more like, "I like where you were going with that idea, but I am going to take it into a different direction" case.

(edited for stupid mistakes made due to lack of coffee.)
« Last Edit: March 03, 2018, 02:22:44 AM by Rick5150 » Logged
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« Reply #86 on: March 02, 2018, 06:45:49 AM »

"But with that said, even if Brian learned things from Dean, it is not indicative of Dean being better or even on par with Brian. It is more likely to be Brian's ability to recognize what he feels is important or what can be useful and adapt it to "his sound". This is not an "imitation is the sincerest form of flattery" case, but more like, "I like where you were going with that idea, but I am going to take it into a different direction" case. "

I think you mean Jan, but this is the sentiment I was trying to get across, that Brian and Jan were not equals--except, maybe, for a brief time in the studio around 1962, 1963--but that there was definitely some influence on Brian from working with Jan in the studio.

And yes, I'm the one who dislikes the break in DWB. I love the song, but the break has always sounding jarring and amateurish to me. Jan, of course, would have come up with something better  Grin

As far as people talking about the Phase II J&D setlist being filled with BB songs, that was totally Dean's doing. It's no secret there was a lot of tension between Jan and Dean, post-accident, and in concert, Dean would often call J&D songs that Jan had written and produced "stupid." On the One Summer Night Live album, referring to not getting paid for Jennie Lee, he says, "who would pay you for that stupid song." This is said right in front of Jan. Can you imagine what would happen if Mike Love said something like that at a C50 concert with Brian sitting right there. Dean's "humor" post-accident towards Jan gets very testy at times, and reflected their strained relationship. As a result, Dean didn't care if they did a lot of J&D songs in concert, as he was fine with J&D being a BB-covers band. If you listen to Jan's solo concerts in the mid-70s and 80s, they are much more focused on Jan and Dean material, as well as Jan's solo material of the time. However, post-accident, you had a situation where Dean wasn't a proponent of J&D songs, where Jan was unable to sing lead on more than a handful of songs (and Jan sang lead on most J&D songs), and also, they had no post-1966 material to perform. It would be as if the Beach Boys played nothing live after Summer Days. So many people love the 1966-1972 BB's musical output. Well, Jan and Dean never had the opportunity to have any output during those years.

That said, you could still construct a pretty nice J&D-only setlist:

Jennie Lee
Baby Talk
Linda
Barbara Ann (they recorded this years before the BB's did)
Tennessee
Surf City
Drag City
Honolulu Lulu
Deadman's Curve
New Girl in School
Little Old Lady from Pasadena
Ride the Wild Surf
Sidewalk Surfin
Popsicle
I Found A Girl
Batman
Anaheim, Azuza
Here They Come From All Over the World



That's a nice 18-song basis for a J&D-based setlist. Add in 3-4 "deep" album cuts such as Rockin Little Roadster, Someday (a great Four Seasons-like tune), One Piece Topless Bathing Suit, or Horace the Swingin School Bus Driver (to name just a few that I like) and you would have a nice set. Not BB-level obviously, but certainly an enjoyable, interesting set of music. And this doesn't even include some Carnival of Sound or Save For A Rainy Day songs.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2018, 08:04:13 AM by relx » Logged
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« Reply #87 on: March 02, 2018, 07:47:05 AM »

Right. Jan & Dean had plenty of hits (and some groovy deep cuts) they could and would have played had Jan been in charge of Phase II. But that was totally Dean's operation, and due to his tension with Jan, I assume that part of the reason they played so many BBs songs, was to piss Jan off. Although Jan did love to sing "Hide Your Love Away" by The Beatles. He said it was the best song ever written and he demanded to sing it at many shows... But in reality, it was one of the only songs Jan could remember the words to.

It's pretty obvious Dean decided to have so many BBs  songs for two reasons.
1) To play crowd pleasers (Duh! Who doesn't love the BBs music? And J&D with Papa Doo Ron Ron played them really well!)
2) He was upset with Jan.
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« Reply #88 on: March 02, 2018, 08:10:01 AM »

I'm gonna throw some opinions out there about Jan & Dean.

I must say I kinda appreciate Stebbins and Edelson's unfiltered comments about Jan & Dean.

I also am totally in agreement with Howie about how he loves reading about Jan & Dean thanks to Mark Moore, but that their music is usually....ehhh. I also agree that Jan's post accident (mostly '70s) vocal stuff is usually much more interesting.

Now, I will say that I actually do dig some of Jan's early stuff. I think "Jennie Lee" and "Baby Talk" are both cool little nostalgic '50s things. I also dig "Surf City", "Ride the Wild Surf" and "You Really Know How to Hurt a Guy" among maybe a few others.

However, stuff like his pro Vietnam War "Only a Boy" and the "The Universal Coward" are absolutely fucking pathetic especially when one considers that Jan was a fuckin' chicken hawk. He was all about that war and sending our young men over there, as long as he himself wasn't the one who was gonna be sent over. Cuz when he was drafted, he tried to weasel out of it. In fact, I wouldn't doubt that this was weighing on his mind the day he had his life changing car accident. And if I remember correctly, Jan actually changed stripes after the accident, becoming an anti-war Democrat.

And as far as Dean, dude kinda just seems like a dick. I could go into more later, but basically he just seemed (and still seems) very, very disrespectful of a friend (Jan) who made him a lot of money and opened many doors for him. Not to mention that I remember reading an interview from around 2012 or so where he said he wasn't sure if he'd do any new music* due to the fact that the President at the time was making it so hard for hard working Americans like him to make money. Thud



*Like anybody cares if Dean Torrence puts out new music.
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« Reply #89 on: March 02, 2018, 08:15:42 AM »


While I agree that the Beach Boys had a much rawer sound early on--I wouldn't go so far as to call it punk--Jan's productions from late 1962 through early 1964, for the most part, sound better than Brian's. Think about something like the instrumental break in "Don't Worry Baby." Maybe the most beautiful BB song, but that break is horrid. Now, the break doesn't detract from the quality of the song, but you can't really say that its a model of musicianship and production technique.



The Byrds didn't think the instrumental break in DWB was so bad. 
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« Reply #90 on: March 02, 2018, 08:21:38 AM »

I also think, Nate, that, for the most part, Jan was just happy actually being on stage and performing. He had so many challenges to overcome just being up there, I'm sure the setlist was way down on his list.

You've Got to Hide Your Love Away is song I would also include in a J&D-flavored setlist. While it's obviously a cover, Jan and Dean performed it before the accident, and their versions--both pre and post-accident--were so different than the original as to almost make it a new song. In terms of covers, I am okay with songs that bands have performed for so long that they had basically made them their own. Think Sloop John B. Then I Kissed Her, Cottonfields and Barbara Ann for the BB's. All covers, but they might as well be original BB songs because the group has performed them for so long, and recorded them. Nobody says that the BB's should drop those songs from their setlists because they are not originals. Quite the contrary; Sloop John B is a fan favorite, and I love Al's version of Then I Kissed Her, one of my favorite "Beach Boys" songs.
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« Reply #91 on: March 02, 2018, 08:28:55 AM »

I'm gonna throw some opinions out there about Jan & Dean.

I must say I kinda appreciate Stebbins and Edelson's unfiltered comments about Jan & Dean.

I also am totally in agreement with Howie about how he loves reading about Jan & Dean thanks to Mark Moore, but that their music is usually....ehhh. I also agree that Jan's post accident (mostly '70s) vocal stuff is usually much more interesting.

Now, I will say that I actually do dig some of Jan's early stuff. I think "Jennie Lee" and "Baby Talk" are both cool little nostalgic '50s things. I also dig "Surf City", "Ride the Wild Surf" and "You Really Know How to Hurt a Guy" among maybe a few others.

However, stuff like his pro Vietnam War "Only a Boy" and the "The Universal Coward" are absolutely fucking pathetic especially when one considers that Jan was a fuckin' chicken hawk. He was all about that war and sending our young men over there, as long as he himself wasn't the one who was gonna be sent over. Cuz when he was drafted, he tried to weasel out of it. In fact, I wouldn't doubt that this was weighing on his mind the day he had his life changing car accident. And if I remember correctly, Jan actually changed stripes after the accident, becoming an anti-war Democrat.

And as far as Dean, dude kinda just seems like a dick. I could go into more later, but basically he just seemed (and still seems) very, very disrespectful of a friend (Jan) who made him a lot of money and opened many doors for him. Not to mention that I remember reading an interview from around 2012 or so where he said he wasn't sure if he'd do any new music* due to the fact that the President at the time was making it so hard for hard working Americans like him to make money. Thud



*Like anybody cares if Dean Torrence puts out new music.
Totally agree about Jan most likely being a dick before the accident, and Dean being one afterwards! Still, that doesn't takeaway from the music--Universal Coward and Only A Boy are actually nice songs from a musical standpoint, but the lyrics are a whole different issue. I try to separate the personal from the music when dealing with artists that I don't know personally. It's the usual Mike Love argument--you can still enjoy the music, even with Mike (who will all know is a hardcore right-winger) singing it. And, as you likely know, Mike and Dean have been good friends for a long time.

On an interesting note, I believe Dean is interviewed briefly during the infamous Diane Sawyer Landy/Brian interview in 1991, as an example of someone who is blocked by Landy from getting in touch with Brian. Brian's response is basically, why would I ever talk to Dean Torrence, we have no relationship. That part actually rang true to me, as it was Jan who Brian had the musical connection with, not Dean. It felt like Dean was doing a Mike Love and trying to paint himself as a creative contemporary of Brian's, with Brian basically shoving that nonsense back down Dean's throat.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2018, 08:39:42 AM by relx » Logged
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« Reply #92 on: March 02, 2018, 08:58:03 AM »

I'm gonna throw some opinions out there about Jan & Dean.

I must say I kinda appreciate Stebbins and Edelson's unfiltered comments about Jan & Dean.

I also am totally in agreement with Howie about how he loves reading about Jan & Dean thanks to Mark Moore, but that their music is usually....ehhh. I also agree that Jan's post accident (mostly '70s) vocal stuff is usually much more interesting.

Now, I will say that I actually do dig some of Jan's early stuff. I think "Jennie Lee" and "Baby Talk" are both cool little nostalgic '50s things. I also dig "Surf City", "Ride the Wild Surf" and "You Really Know How to Hurt a Guy" among maybe a few others.

However, stuff like his pro Vietnam War "Only a Boy" and the "The Universal Coward" are absolutely fucking pathetic especially when one considers that Jan was a fuckin' chicken hawk. He was all about that war and sending our young men over there, as long as he himself wasn't the one who was gonna be sent over. Cuz when he was drafted, he tried to weasel out of it. In fact, I wouldn't doubt that this was weighing on his mind the day he had his life changing car accident. And if I remember correctly, Jan actually changed stripes after the accident, becoming an anti-war Democrat.

And as far as Dean, dude kinda just seems like a dick. I could go into more later, but basically he just seemed (and still seems) very, very disrespectful of a friend (Jan) who made him a lot of money and opened many doors for him. Not to mention that I remember reading an interview from around 2012 or so where he said he wasn't sure if he'd do any new music* due to the fact that the President at the time was making it so hard for hard working Americans like him to make money. Thud



*Like anybody cares if Dean Torrence puts out new music.
Totally agree about Jan most likely being a dick before the accident, and Dean being one afterwards! Still, that doesn't takeaway from the music--Universal Coward and Only A Boy are actually nice songs from a musical standpoint, but the lyrics are a whole different issue. I try to separate the personal from the music when dealing with artists that I don't know personally. It's the usual Mike Love argument--you can still enjoy the music, even with Mike (who will all know is a hardcore right-winger) singing it. And, as you likely know, Mike and Dean have been good friends for a long time.

You know, it's not so much Jan's earlier political beliefs at all, it was just that it was so damn hypocritical of him to be pushing for this war while trying his best to get out of serving his country. It doesn't bother me that Carl Wilson was a draft dodger because he was anti-war and cited his religious beliefs. He had a reason for not wanting to go. Jan on the other hand wanted to stay home and cheat on his girlfriend and make songs about how one should serve their country.
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guitarfool2002
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« Reply #93 on: March 02, 2018, 09:23:08 AM »

HeyJude,

Phase II of J&D's career (post-accident era) was all about two things

1. Boosting Jan's confidence: He worked his ass off to remember the lyrics to the Jan & Dean songs. He continued to f*ck up the lyrics for years and years, but he worked his hardest to remember those lyrics. That's why he could only sing so many of his own songs. I'm sure they would have played more J&D songs, as they actually did at the beginning of Phase II, if Jan could remember the words.

2. Please fans/nostalgia/etc: Just like people who see Mike Love, the people who saw J&D during Phase II were there to dance and sing along to surf/hot rod hits. They could care less if it was BBs material or J&D material. Just like how most people seeing Mike's current show, wouldn't even know that Unleash The Love is a Mike Love song, and not The Beach Boys. They were just playing crowd pleasers.

I saw Jan And Dean live in the summer of 1998. It was a good show and I'm glad I went, but I have to say what I've said here and elsewhere before. Even standing there listening at the show I had the feeling that they were playing too many Beach Boys songs, BB songs that actually had nothing to do with Jan And Dean at all. If they had done BB's tunes they covered on their own releases, that would be fine. But if I recall they did Do It Again among others that had no connection to J&D...

So count me as someone who went to a Jan And Dean show in the late 90's to hear Jan And Dean music on a summer's night, and I left wondering why it felt like half their set was Beach Boys music.

After reading this thread, I think maybe some of the posts hit on a possible reason. There just aren't that many chart hits that the duo had which an audience would recognize, and they didn't want to play deep cuts. But that may say a lot about the whole situation where they had to play what felt like too many Beach Boys songs in order to please the crowd, if their own discography was as influential and as big as some have suggested.
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"All of us have the privilege of making music that helps and heals - to make music that makes people happier, stronger, and kinder. Don't forget: Music is God's voice." - Brian Wilson
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« Reply #94 on: March 02, 2018, 09:46:54 AM »

"But with that said, even if Brian learned things from Dean, it is not indicative of Dean being better or even on par with Brian. It is more likely to be Brian's ability to recognize what he feels is important or what can be useful and adapt it to "his sound". This is not an "imitation is the sincerest form of flattery" case, but more like, "I like where you were going with that idea, but I am going to take it into a different direction" case. "

I think you mean Jan, but this is the sentiment I was trying to get across, that Brian and Jan were not equals--except, maybe, for a brief time in the studio around 1962, 1963--but that there was definitely some influence on Brian from working with Jan in the studio.

This totally removes the influence of Phil Spector from the equation, and that could be the main influence on both Brian and Jan - in terms of making records like Phil was making at this time with the same core musicians as both Brian and Jan started using.
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"All of us have the privilege of making music that helps and heals - to make music that makes people happier, stronger, and kinder. Don't forget: Music is God's voice." - Brian Wilson
Howie Edelson
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« Reply #95 on: March 02, 2018, 10:15:17 AM »

Also regarding the Jan & Dean show -- although not publicly marketed as such -- was a Beach Boys cover act. As was Papa and now the Endless Summer whatever. Perfect for corporate gigs and low-scale fundraisers (I saw Jan & Dean in, I think 2001, in the parking lot at Glendale Hospital. Jan performed, slumped, sitting on a hard metal folding chair with a spilled full can of Diet Rite at his velcroed orthopedic shoes.)

You want the Beach Boys but can only pay #4,450 -- here ya go. Like a farm league. I was always amazed that BRI never flexed its muscles with Dean regarding someone else touring, what is essentially, the Beach Boys' act.

Although there were a handful of obese men holding J&D magazines and 45's, the vast majority of the (maybe 100) people probably walked away from that parking lot gig saying "The Beach Boys were dynamite!" and then completely forgot the entire event ever happened.
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« Reply #96 on: March 02, 2018, 10:28:43 AM »

Also regarding the Jan & Dean show -- although not publicly marketed as such -- was a Beach Boys cover act. As was Papa and now the Endless Summer whatever. Perfect for corporate gigs and low-scale fundraisers (I saw Jan & Dean in, I think 2001, in the parking lot at Glendale Hospital. Jan performed, slumped, sitting on a hard metal folding chair with a spilled full can of Diet Rite at his velcroed orthopedic shoes.)

You want the Beach Boys but can only pay #4,450 -- here ya go. Like a farm league. I was always amazed that BRI never flexed its muscles with Dean regarding someone else touring, what is essentially, the Beach Boys' act.

Although there were a handful of obese men holding J&D magazines and 45's, the vast majority of the (maybe 100) people probably walked away from that parking lot gig saying "The Beach Boys were dynamite!" and then completely forgot the entire event ever happened.

Dude...you're veering a bit close to mocking a disabled man. While I personally think it would have been better if Jan stopped touring by the point, I still don't think we should mock a man who was in his condition. Let's leave that to this piece of sh*t:



Also, mocking obese dudes? C'mon. I've seen photos of you, and you're a good lookin' dude, though not exactly tiny (and for that fact, neither am I. I weigh a cool 215 and have a bit of a belly as anybody who's friends with me on Facebook can see).
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relx
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« Reply #97 on: March 02, 2018, 10:30:44 AM »

HeyJude,

Phase II of J&D's career (post-accident era) was all about two things

1. Boosting Jan's confidence: He worked his ass off to remember the lyrics to the Jan & Dean songs. He continued to f*ck up the lyrics for years and years, but he worked his hardest to remember those lyrics. That's why he could only sing so many of his own songs. I'm sure they would have played more J&D songs, as they actually did at the beginning of Phase II, if Jan could remember the words.

2. Please fans/nostalgia/etc: Just like people who see Mike Love, the people who saw J&D during Phase II were there to dance and sing along to surf/hot rod hits. They could care less if it was BBs material or J&D material. Just like how most people seeing Mike's current show, wouldn't even know that Unleash The Love is a Mike Love song, and not The Beach Boys. They were just playing crowd pleasers.

I saw Jan And Dean live in the summer of 1998. It was a good show and I'm glad I went, but I have to say what I've said here and elsewhere before. Even standing there listening at the show I had the feeling that they were playing too many Beach Boys songs, BB songs that actually had nothing to do with Jan And Dean at all. If they had done BB's tunes they covered on their own releases, that would be fine. But if I recall they did Do It Again among others that had no connection to J&D...

So count me as someone who went to a Jan And Dean show in the late 90's to hear Jan And Dean music on a summer's night, and I left wondering why it felt like half their set was Beach Boys music.

After reading this thread, I think maybe some of the posts hit on a possible reason. There just aren't that many chart hits that the duo had which an audience would recognize, and they didn't want to play deep cuts. But that may say a lot about the whole situation where they had to play what felt like too many Beach Boys songs in order to please the crowd, if their own discography was as influential and as big as some have suggested.

In 1998, you were seeing the Dean Torrence Show, and Dean, even more than Mike Love, cares nothing about artistry or legacy--its all about playing hits, no matter whose hits they were, and having a good time.

As far as having an influential and big discography, no one--certainly not me--is saying that Jan and Dean have that. They were a minor group--who I enjoy very much--with a handful of hits. If you listen to oldies radio today, you will still hear Surf City and the Little Old Lady from Pasadena in regular rotation, Linda, Baby Talk, Deadman's Curve semi-regularly, and one or two other songs like Drag City or Honolulu Lulu occasionally.  That's 4-5 songs still being played 50+ years later. Certainly not BB level, but they are not some forgotten one-hit wonders. Even the release of Mark Moore's book and the Carnival of Sound release from a few years ago shows that there is still some interest in Jan and Dean. If no one cared, Rhino wouldn't have wasted their money putting out COS, and no reputable publisher would have touched Mark's book. Again, they have an audience, albeit a small one.

Also, keep in mind that their profile has diminished over time for other reasons. First of all, Jan was the brains behind the act, and with his voice as advocate effectively silenced in 1966--and with Dean's frequent negativity toward their legacy and music--there has no one to champion them. A lot of the respect for the BB today is because Brian has been championed as a visionary artist for the past twenty years. Jan and Dean have basically had no marketing team for decades. If you go back to the late 70s and early 1980s, after the release of the Deadman's Curve film, Jan and Dean were a much bigger act. They might not have played stadiums like the BB's did, but I saw them several times during the time period, and they played places that held 1,000-2,000 people, not dissimilar to the kind of audience Brian draws today. As time went on, and there was no new J&D material, and their original audience aged out and was not replaced by a new one, they became a largely forgotten act playing casinos and the like. When I saw J&D in 1998, they had to make an announcement before the show, telling the audience that Jan had been in an accident in 1966, so that people would understand his appearance. They didn't have to make the same announcement in 1981 because the audience was much more familiar with them.

Also, in terms of songs, Jan and Dean had nothing to draw on post-1966, so their time as an active act was very limited. Not saying that would have had any more hits had the accident never happened, but they did have a TV show scheduled to run in the fall of 1966 on ABC, so that would have certainly kept their profile high.

The point I have been trying to make is that Jan and Dean, while minor, still have SOME resonance all these years later. They may not have been major stars like the BB's, but they weren't Milli Vanilli.

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Howie Edelson
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« Reply #98 on: March 02, 2018, 10:31:03 AM »

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Jim V.
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« Reply #99 on: March 02, 2018, 10:54:28 AM »

Who are YOU???
Watch your tone with me.

I have no idea who YOU are -- why are you searching out photos of ME, Tommy???

And to be perfectly clear I'm not mocking anything. I'm describing EXACTLY what I saw.

Wow. I'm disappointed. I am big fan of your work and all the writing you've done and I always look forward to reading your stuff. However I see that you think you're above me because I don't know who you know, and dared to point out that I thought you wrote some inappropriate stuff. Your response that you were reporting what you saw passes muster for me though and I'll give you that it's different from you *making fun*. But it did draw me back for a second.

And I googled "Howie Edelson" after your posts. And since I've read your liner notes in a few releases, I'd say it's fair that you're a public person. So I looked you up. So what? If I want to feel lorded over by the so-called "cool kids in class" I'll go speak with David Beard and Andrew Doe. I didn't think I'd be spoken down to on this board. However, I'm wrong. I must be one of those "total nerds" that you hate, which is a shame, cuz I thought you seemed like a straight up, decent guy.
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