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671800 Posts in 27039 Topics by 3969 Members - Latest Member: StevieB58 September 17, 2021, 09:55:03 PM
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Author Topic: Howie Edelson Talks Brian's 1971 "Sail on Sailor" Demo & "Carl's Song"  (Read 3386 times)
thetojo
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« Reply #25 on: July 31, 2021, 02:21:05 PM »

If only SOS with Dennis on lead vocals had been saved. I always have hope that o every it may actually surface.

+1. Are we sure this one vocal pass was lost?
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sloopjohnb72
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« Reply #26 on: July 31, 2021, 07:03:06 PM »

It was incomplete and taped over. Once something is taped over, it cannot be recovered. Not lost, just erased very soon after it was captured.
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thetojo
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« Reply #27 on: July 31, 2021, 09:38:31 PM »

It was incomplete and taped over. Once something is taped over, it cannot be recovered. Not lost, just erased very soon after it was captured.

Thanks. Well not accidentally lost - but lost to the world in the sense that we will never hear it!
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All Summer Long
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« Reply #28 on: August 01, 2021, 10:18:04 PM »

It was incomplete and taped over. Once something is taped over, it cannot be recovered. Not lost, just erased very soon after it was captured.

Isn’t there some new technology where if the heads weren’t aligned properly, they can recover some “erased” material? Obviously that would still be a long shot, but still it’s something interesting to think about.
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Don Malcolm
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« Reply #29 on: August 02, 2021, 06:23:08 AM »

Frankly, as legendary as that Brian/Van Dyke cassette tape is, and how interesting it might be to hear Dennis sing SOS, what I want Howie and Alan and Mark to conjure up is a tape where someone is singing the original "Beatrice" lyrics before they were rewritten. And then--because I'm egregiously greedy about all things "Mess of Help"--I want the jam session from Bellagio where Carl and the outside musicians worked on the backing track (referred to in the Dutch interview posted over at the "nearest faraway place"...). Just fork that stuff over, guys, so I can die in peace... Smokin
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as1972
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« Reply #30 on: August 02, 2021, 07:38:03 AM »

Frankly, as legendary as that Brian/Van Dyke cassette tape is, and how interesting it might be to hear Dennis sing SOS, what I want Howie and Alan and Mark to conjure up is a tape where someone is singing the original "Beatrice" lyrics before they were rewritten. And then--because I'm egregiously greedy about all things "Mess of Help"--I want the jam session from Bellagio where Carl and the outside musicians worked on the backing track (referred to in the Dutch interview posted over at the "nearest faraway place"...). Just fork that stuff over, guys, so I can die in peace... Smokin

I'd just like to know the full lyric to it, let the cookie monster impersonators of the world record a vocal for it. I know the first verse has been posted to this very board at some point in the past.
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Greg Parry
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« Reply #31 on: August 02, 2021, 10:03:01 AM »

It was incomplete and taped over. Once something is taped over, it cannot be recovered. Not lost, just erased very soon after it was captured.

Isn’t there some new technology where if the heads weren’t aligned properly, they can recover some “erased” material? Obviously that would still be a long shot, but still it’s something interesting to think about.


As far as I know, when a tape is erased or recorded over, the magnetic particles reconfigure themselves. It would be like kicking over a sand castle, then trying to rebuild it using exactly the same grains of sand in exactly the same positions.

Head misalignment can lead to some interesting artefacts it's true. Tracks can bleed through onto adjacent tracks, which is I believe how the clarinet line on Look  / I Ran was discovered. Audio forensic plugins can extract and boost these ghostlike signals. However, if all the tracks on a multitrack are filled, any bleed through would be erased.

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Joshilyn Hoisington
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« Reply #32 on: August 02, 2021, 12:15:46 PM »

It was incomplete and taped over. Once something is taped over, it cannot be recovered. Not lost, just erased very soon after it was captured.

Isn’t there some new technology where if the heads weren’t aligned properly, they can recover some “erased” material? Obviously that would still be a long shot, but still it’s something interesting to think about.


As far as I know, when a tape is erased or recorded over, the magnetic particles reconfigure themselves. It would be like kicking over a sand castle, then trying to rebuild it using exactly the same grains of sand in exactly the same positions.

Head misalignment can lead to some interesting artefacts it's true. Tracks can bleed through onto adjacent tracks, which is I believe how the clarinet line on Look  / I Ran was discovered. Audio forensic plugins can extract and boost these ghostlike signals. However, if all the tracks on a multitrack are filled, any bleed through would be erased.


I'm sure that within 50 years, some sort of AI will be able to deduce and infer previous magnetic configurations of tape using, you know, some minimal amount of leftover information.  It'll still be pretty unsatisfying, though.

The other thing about this is that it's pretty much impossible to prove the negative, that nobody ever did a dub.  99.9999% chance they didn't but we can't disprove the 00.0001 chance someone made a copy.  (Even though we know they didn't.). Good times.
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HeyJude
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« Reply #33 on: August 02, 2021, 01:07:05 PM »

We'll probably see "deepfake" audio to try to replicate Dennis's voice before we see technology that can pull an aborted, recorded-over vocal off of multi-track analog tape.

That being said, I know of a few cases on *other* songs where Dennis lead vocals exist that you'd never think would have. Hopefully we'll get to hear those....
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« Reply #34 on: August 03, 2021, 10:48:57 AM »

It was incomplete and taped over. Once something is taped over, it cannot be recovered. Not lost, just erased very soon after it was captured.

Isn’t there some new technology where if the heads weren’t aligned properly, they can recover some “erased” material? Obviously that would still be a long shot, but still it’s something interesting to think about.


As far as I know, when a tape is erased or recorded over, the magnetic particles reconfigure themselves. It would be like kicking over a sand castle, then trying to rebuild it using exactly the same grains of sand in exactly the same positions.

Head misalignment can lead to some interesting artefacts it's true. Tracks can bleed through onto adjacent tracks, which is I believe how the clarinet line on Look  / I Ran was discovered. Audio forensic plugins can extract and boost these ghostlike signals. However, if all the tracks on a multitrack are filled, any bleed through would be erased.


I'm sure that within 50 years, some sort of AI will be able to deduce and infer previous magnetic configurations of tape using, you know, some minimal amount of leftover information.  It'll still be pretty unsatisfying, though.

The other thing about this is that it's pretty much impossible to prove the negative, that nobody ever did a dub.  99.9999% chance they didn't but we can't disprove the 00.0001 chance someone made a copy.  (Even though we know they didn't.). Good times.

I remember watching a science programme once where they suggested it would one day be possible to read and translate sounds which had been imprinted on walls and other surfaces. Apparently all sound waves leave an imprint at the molecular level

They imagined how this could be used to hear the utterances of famous historical figures during famous historical events.

Personally I'd set off with the apparatus in the direction of 1448 Laurel Way, Beverly Hills.

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thetojo
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« Reply #35 on: August 03, 2021, 02:27:50 PM »

We'll probably see "deepfake" audio to try to replicate Dennis's voice before we see technology that can pull an aborted, recorded-over vocal off of multi-track analog tape.

That being said, I know of a few cases on *other* songs where Dennis lead vocals exist that you'd never think would have. Hopefully we'll get to hear those....

Well some of his 1976-1977 era leads are interesting choices - I'm thinking of songs like "My Diane", "Mona" and "Sea Cruise".

We love Denny! Would love to hear more of his leads. Those 2 tracks of his leads on "All I Want To Do" were a revelation, even if the finished version with Mike does trump them.
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