gfxgfx
 
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
logo
 
gfx gfx
gfx
677201 Posts in 27329 Topics by 4040 Members - Latest Member: Wayneo September 27, 2022, 03:50:22 AM
*
gfx*HomeHelpSearchCalendarLoginRegistergfx
gfxgfx
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.       « previous next »
Pages: [1] 2 3 Go Down Print
Author Topic: The biggest revelation about Sunshine Tomorrow.. Brian's level of involvement..  (Read 10920 times)
SamMcK
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 582



View Profile
« on: June 30, 2017, 01:31:25 AM »

I know it sounds pretty obvious but something that these outtakes and clearer mixes of this period reveal is that despite the collapse of SMiLE, Brian was still the same mastermind behind the Smiley Smile and Wild Honey sessions. In fact when you actually look at it, he is far and away the most involved member, still in SMiLE mode so to speak.

I know to many of you the answer to that is 'well, duh!'

But seriously guys, this changes all the myths about what the public assumed happened to the Beach Boys post-Smile. Now it's available for the public to hear with their own ears that Brian as he was during the Pet Sounds-Smile was still the same musical genius afterwards. The main ingredient he changed was switching from the session musicians back to the beach boys, so to speak. The innovation is there for everyone to see. You can hear him ALL OVER THIS THING.

So in a sense that makes this not only the most important Beach Boys release since the SMiLE Sessions but possibly the 2nd most important Beach Boys archival release to date. (Not counting the Pet Sounds Sessions for the simple fact that everyone knew it was an astonishing record)

God bless Brian, god bless the Beach Boys. God bless Mark, Alan, Capitol, Howie and everyone involved.

Selfish as it sounds, it desperately makes me want to see whats next in store, a Friends-20/20 release? The Sunflower Sessions? Shocked
« Last Edit: June 30, 2017, 01:41:43 AM by SamMcK » Logged
JK
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 6045


Maybe I put too much faith in atmosphere


View Profile
« Reply #1 on: June 30, 2017, 02:17:23 AM »

Now it's available for the public to hear with their own ears that Brian as he was during the Pet Sounds-Smile was still the same musical genius afterwards.

This! Nail on the head, Sam. :=)
Logged

"Ik bun moar een eenvoudige boerenlul en doar schoam ik mien niet veur" (Normaal, 1978)
You're Grass and I'm a Power Mower: A Beach Boys Orchestration Web Series
the Carbon Freeze | Eclectic Essays & Art
guitarfool2002
Global Moderator
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 9904


"Barba non facit aliam historici"


View Profile WWW
« Reply #2 on: June 30, 2017, 07:51:24 AM »

I know it sounds pretty obvious but something that these outtakes and clearer mixes of this period reveal is that despite the collapse of SMiLE, Brian was still the same mastermind behind the Smiley Smile and Wild Honey sessions. In fact when you actually look at it, he is far and away the most involved member, still in SMiLE mode so to speak.

I know to many of you the answer to that is 'well, duh!'

But seriously guys, this changes all the myths about what the public assumed happened to the Beach Boys post-Smile. Now it's available for the public to hear with their own ears that Brian as he was during the Pet Sounds-Smile was still the same musical genius afterwards. The main ingredient he changed was switching from the session musicians back to the beach boys, so to speak. The innovation is there for everyone to see. You can hear him ALL OVER THIS THING.

So in a sense that makes this not only the most important Beach Boys release since the SMiLE Sessions but possibly the 2nd most important Beach Boys archival release to date. (Not counting the Pet Sounds Sessions for the simple fact that everyone knew it was an astonishing record)

God bless Brian, god bless the Beach Boys. God bless Mark, Alan, Capitol, Howie and everyone involved.

Selfish as it sounds, it desperately makes me want to see whats next in store, a Friends-20/20 release? The Sunflower Sessions? Shocked

Great post.

Unfortunately there may be many fans who read the forums who would not say "well, duh!" about Brian's involvement in making and recording this music because they have been told otherwise. In the past several years some have stated as fact how Carl produced most of WH, and other similar commentary.

Now, what all fans who listen to this set will finally hear is the evidence via the actual session tapes and studio chatter who was really producing and creating this music. The fact any of that was in dispute on places like this forum by some people can be put aside in light of hearing the actual sessions.

Logged

"All of us have the privilege of making music that helps and heals - to make music that makes people happier, stronger, and kinder. Don't forget: Music is God's voice." - Brian Wilson
RONDEMON
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 480



View Profile
« Reply #3 on: June 30, 2017, 08:26:07 AM »

I was just about to post something similar. He sounds like he's having fun, but is definitely more mellow overall. This boxset makes me appreciate these sessions so much more. His vocals are awesome too as always. There's one or two tracks where you can hear Bruce producing the vocal sessions too, I found that interesting as he's probably the most "trained" Beach Boy, so it makes sense.
Logged
SMiLE Brian
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 8400



View Profile
« Reply #4 on: June 30, 2017, 08:40:18 AM »

Agreed, Brian's in charge but more mellow and they are having fun again in the studio. Cool Guy
Logged

And production aside, Iíd so much rather hear a 14 year old David Marks shred some guitar on Chug-a-lug than hear a 51 year old Mike Love sing about bangin some chick in a swimming pool.-rab2591
terrei
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 139


View Profile
« Reply #5 on: June 30, 2017, 09:39:40 AM »

The only time throughout the whole set that I can hear Brian "in charge" is when he's instructing Dennis to play a tom on Let the Wind Blow.

I hear Carl counting off most of the tracks.
Logged
guitarfool2002
Global Moderator
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 9904


"Barba non facit aliam historici"


View Profile WWW
« Reply #6 on: June 30, 2017, 09:51:03 AM »

The only time throughout the whole set that I can hear Brian "in charge" is when he's instructing Dennis to play a tom on Let the Wind Blow.

I hear Carl counting off most of the tracks.

You're hearing wrong.
Logged

"All of us have the privilege of making music that helps and heals - to make music that makes people happier, stronger, and kinder. Don't forget: Music is God's voice." - Brian Wilson
RONDEMON
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 480



View Profile
« Reply #7 on: June 30, 2017, 10:28:47 AM »

The only time throughout the whole set that I can hear Brian "in charge" is when he's instructing Dennis to play a tom on Let the Wind Blow.

I hear Carl counting off most of the tracks.

Yeah, it's definitely BW counting off almost all the songs. You can tell because his tempo changes on almost every take  ó he's never been the best for timing

Undecided haha
Logged
Ang Jones
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 559



View Profile
« Reply #8 on: June 30, 2017, 10:54:49 AM »

I know it sounds pretty obvious but something that these outtakes and clearer mixes of this period reveal is that despite the collapse of SMiLE, Brian was still the same mastermind behind the Smiley Smile and Wild Honey sessions. In fact when you actually look at it, he is far and away the most involved member, still in SMiLE mode so to speak.

I know to many of you the answer to that is 'well, duh!'

But seriously guys, this changes all the myths about what the public assumed happened to the Beach Boys post-Smile. Now it's available for the public to hear with their own ears that Brian as he was during the Pet Sounds-Smile was still the same musical genius afterwards. The main ingredient he changed was switching from the session musicians back to the beach boys, so to speak. The innovation is there for everyone to see. You can hear him ALL OVER THIS THING.

So in a sense that makes this not only the most important Beach Boys release since the SMiLE Sessions but possibly the 2nd most important Beach Boys archival release to date. (Not counting the Pet Sounds Sessions for the simple fact that everyone knew it was an astonishing record)

God bless Brian, god bless the Beach Boys. God bless Mark, Alan, Capitol, Howie and everyone involved.

Selfish as it sounds, it desperately makes me want to see whats next in store, a Friends-20/20 release? The Sunflower Sessions? Shocked

Haven't heard all of it yet but I so agree with these comments. Some of the Smiley Smile material makes me feel that we can kind of flesh out SMiLE as it might have been had it been released back then.
Logged
Lonely Summer
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 3833


View Profile
« Reply #9 on: June 30, 2017, 10:58:44 PM »

Despite the legend that persists, my impression has always been that the beginning of Brian dropping out was 20/20. That was the first BB's album with a more democratic approach. Brian is all over Friends, Wild Honey, and Smiley.
Logged
Don Malcolm
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1053



View Profile
« Reply #10 on: June 30, 2017, 11:35:12 PM »

Despite the legend that persists, my impression has always been that the beginning of Brian dropping out was 20/20. That was the first BB's album with a more democratic approach. Brian is all over Friends, Wild Honey, and Smiley.

Yes, absolutely. Carlin and others point to Brian's first significant setback coming in the second half of '68. Mike's TM conversion seems to have been a disruption for the band, and the creative collaboration between Mike & Brian--which had been revived so well on WILD HONEY--seems to hit a wall at this time. Add to all that the aborted tour that cost the band a lot of unrecoverable $$, the dismal sales performance of FRIENDS, the re-emergence of Murry as a pain-in-the-ass/thorn in his side, and the beginning of marital woes with Marilyn--all of this, plus the cumulative effect of having lost his way on SMiLE, must have taken its toll. Three LPs in a row that tanked must also have been a terrible blow to someone who'd been at the pinnacle of success eighteen months earlier. And one can only surmise that it would have been another blow when Carl & Dennis decided to bring the two SMiLE tracks out of the vaults against his wishes and put them on 20/20...if only to make it look as though Brian was plugging away as usual.
Logged
Matt Bielewicz
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 648


View Profile
« Reply #11 on: July 01, 2017, 04:41:49 AM »

I'm a bit thrown and confused by this thread. The way I've pretty much *always* understood it (ever since I knew more than the most basic of facts about this group, anyway) was that the group certainly came back into the mix much more after SMiLE, being used on Smiley instrumentally for the first time properly since That's Not Me on Pet Sounds (yeah, I know there were a few instrumental contributions from Carl and Dennis on SMiLE here and there, but let's face it, it and Pet Sounds are pretty much the Wrecking Crew on the tracks)... *but* that Brian was still absolutely all over the writing, production and recording sessions on Smiley Smile and Wild Honey, and that a significant step back from THAT didn't happen until late 1968, so that 2020 is the first one where his contributions are significantly down.

I got seriously into the Beach Boys in 1995, and by 1998-9, I already had that impression. The release album by album of the SOT bootlegs around 2000 only strengthened that sense. OK, so the sessions were fairly limited for Wild Honey, but who did we hear leading the sessions for that album that we *did* hear on SOT? BDW. And there was no doubt that it was Brian leading the Smiley sessions - we had a lot of those on SOT and his presence and influence is absolutely indisputable.

I can buy that the casual fan has had the idea, perhaps all the way back to the 70s, that Brian 'burned out after SMiLE' and disappeared rapidly, and very recently, anyone who became a fan through the Love and Mercy film might have got that idea, as that film does suggest that. But that can only have been having an influence on new fans' understanding of Brian's post-SMiLE involvement for a couple of years, since the film came out.

What I don't get are all the long-term posters here, deep-level fans many of you, who suddenly seem to be saying 'amazing! Brian was still involved during Wild Honey!!'. Surely, that's not been in dispute by anyone with a more than cursory understanding of the inter-group dynamics and their recording history for, well, *years*?

Did I miss something?

I recall some discussion a few years back about Brian maybe having had a much smaller role in the production and recording of *Sunflower* than had previously been thought, and evidence that his involvement in early 70s recordings was seriously down (for example that he didn't have very much to do with Carl and the Passions, and very much less involvement with the American Spring album than had been thought)... but again, I'd pretty much always understood that he was retreating pretty fast from his former role in the early 70s, so that didn't come as much of a surprise; it was just more detail to support that view. The comments on Sunflower were more surprising, as I'd always thought that sounded like quite a 'Brian' production to me, but learning that Carl, Bruce and Dennis were starting to shoulder a lot of the musical work wasn't too much of a shock (you can partly tell from the album's writing credits). I guess there's more to learn about the sessions for that album.

But the immediate post-Smile stuff up to 2020... I ask again, did you guys in this thread *really* think Brian wasn't very involved in those albums before Sunshine Tomorrow came out? And if so... why? I'm genuinely confused!
« Last Edit: July 01, 2017, 04:54:19 AM by Matt Bielewicz » Logged
18thofMay
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 1453


Goin to the beach


View Profile
« Reply #12 on: July 01, 2017, 04:46:54 AM »

No surprise at all to me
Logged

Itís like he hired a fashion consultant and told her to make him look ďpunchable.Ē
Some Guy, 2012
"Donald Trump makes Mike Love look like an asshole"
Me ,2015.
Ray Lawlor
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 335


View Profile
« Reply #13 on: July 01, 2017, 04:59:25 AM »

No surprise at all to me

Me neither
Logged
rab2591
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 5805


"My God. It's full of stars."


View Profile
« Reply #14 on: July 01, 2017, 05:19:27 AM »

What I don't get are all the long-term posters here, deep-level fans many of you, who suddenly seem to be saying 'amazing! Brian was still involved during Wild Honey!!'. Surely, that's not been in dispute by anyone with a more than cursory understanding of the inter-group dynamics and their recording history for, well, *years*?

Did I miss something?

A couple years ago some people attempted to convince posters here that Carl was the brains behind the production. I think many were/are rightfully confused by this notion because, as you see, Brian was in control in the snippets we have heard. The people who argued in favor of Carl being behind the production had, at the time, credibility so it created a bit of confusion amongst posters here.

I think many of the replies in this thread may be more out of reassurance that they were right all along (rather than a sudden revelation). Iím happy that instead of being confined to a decades-old uneasily-found SOT boot, the evidence is now easily available for anyone to hear.

#1 rule in this fandom Iíve found: trust your own ears and intuitions rather than the word of those with an ax grind.
Logged

Bill Tobelman's SMiLE site

God mustíve smiled the day Brian Wilson was born!

"ragegasm" - /rāj ē ga-zəm/ : a logical mental response produced when your favorite band becomes remotely associated with the bro-country genre.

Ever want to hear some Beach Boys songs mashed up together like The Beatles' 'LOVE' album? Check out my mix!
JK
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 6045


Maybe I put too much faith in atmosphere


View Profile
« Reply #15 on: July 01, 2017, 05:41:07 AM »

What I don't get are all the long-term posters here, deep-level fans many of you, who suddenly seem to be saying 'amazing! Brian was still involved during Wild Honey!!'.

Hate to say it, Matt, but I'm a bit thrown by this post. Who are these "all" and these "many"? Names, please! Smokin
Logged

"Ik bun moar een eenvoudige boerenlul en doar schoam ik mien niet veur" (Normaal, 1978)
You're Grass and I'm a Power Mower: A Beach Boys Orchestration Web Series
the Carbon Freeze | Eclectic Essays & Art
Matt Bielewicz
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 648


View Profile
« Reply #16 on: July 01, 2017, 07:35:18 AM »

No mystery... I just meant the guys on this thread. Sam (OP here), guitarfool, rondemon...

And on the other board, I'm truly amazed to see the likes of Lee Dempsey and Mikie saying they're surprised to hear how in control Brian was too. It's not a sectarian viewpoint - I can't be bothered with all the Brianista/Lovester nonsense, there's nothing that interests me less. I'm just genuinely, genuinely surprised. There's been so many recordings out over the years that have shown that Brian was 'the man' in the studio until after Friends, and the gradual decline in involvement and participation didn't really set in until then.

Reading guitarfool and rab2591's posts above, I must have totally missed whatever was said here about how Carl did all the work after Smiley Smile (if indeed that *is* what was said). Or maybe I did read it and just totally forgot about it, because half an hour's selected listening to Smiley, WH and Friends session tapes would instantly disprove it, surely?

I don't doubt Carl stepped up *more* after SMiLE, and in time became a driving force in the studio... but for SS, WH, and Friends, you can't argue with what you hear on the sessions. It seems impossible to me that you could be uncertain about who is in charge, even if the group is playing much more of a role than they did from 1965 to summer 1967.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2017, 07:48:37 AM by Matt Bielewicz » Logged
JK
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 6045


Maybe I put too much faith in atmosphere


View Profile
« Reply #17 on: July 01, 2017, 07:46:40 AM »

OK, thanks.

Maybe Carl's remark about WH being "Brian's album to cool out by" could be taken the wrong way.
Logged

"Ik bun moar een eenvoudige boerenlul en doar schoam ik mien niet veur" (Normaal, 1978)
You're Grass and I'm a Power Mower: A Beach Boys Orchestration Web Series
the Carbon Freeze | Eclectic Essays & Art
Matt Bielewicz
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 648


View Profile
« Reply #18 on: July 01, 2017, 07:52:40 AM »

Right, good point. I've always taken that quote of Carl's to mean 'here's Brian still running the show, but choosing to do it in a way that he found less stressful'. But I guess you could take it to mean 'this was an album where Brian sat out and nodded his head in the corner to what WE were making'. But I don't think the latter interpretation can be seen as correct for Wild Honey. On the MIU or Light Album sessions 10 years later, then possibly... but not in the late 60s. Or not before 1969 in earnest, anyway.
Logged
Chocolate Shake Man
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 2869


View Profile
« Reply #19 on: July 01, 2017, 08:02:06 AM »

No mystery... I just meant the guys on this thread. Sam (OP here), guitarfool, rondemon...

I might be wrong but I don't think these posters are surprised at Brian's level of involvement but are, rather, happy that the disc proves what they already knew to be true despite the counter-argument that Brian took more of a backseat role (EDIT: or produced more as part of a committee) post-Smile
« Last Edit: July 01, 2017, 08:12:43 AM by Chocolate Shake Man » Logged
Matt Bielewicz
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 648


View Profile
« Reply #20 on: July 01, 2017, 08:12:41 AM »

Yes, fair point, Choc Shake Man! Some of the guys in this thread above probably weren't expressing 'Wow! Amazing! Brian was still in the studio for Wild Honey!!'. Perhaps that's unfair of me.

But clearly I missed some people here pushing the idea that BW was a zoned-out basketcase post-SMiLE and Carl had to do all the work from then on. Or something? I just can't see how that idea could have caught on, if it did.

I have been away from here a lot during the war-torn period of the past couple of years, so I probably did miss it. Like Linus and the brothers Karamasov in Schulz's Peanuts, I guess I just BLEEPED over it...!
« Last Edit: July 01, 2017, 08:20:18 AM by Matt Bielewicz » Logged
Chocolate Shake Man
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 2869


View Profile
« Reply #21 on: July 01, 2017, 08:19:16 AM »

Yes, maybe someone can point to a specific thread.

However, a lot of this also just stems from the fact that the production credits post-Pet Sounds are credited not to Brian but to The Beach Boys. And added to that, you have various pop media sources including the TV movies which essentially depicts Brian as going into hibernation with the collapse of Smile. All those things add up in the minds of some that Brian was off in his own world from early 1967 onwards. Nowhere was this more striking than in the American Family movie when Brian crashes a Sunflower session. The guys ask what they think of the recording and Brian simply sits down at a piano and plays some weird riff and the guys just look at him, mourning the loss of their former creative hero. The only problem with this depiction is that the song they were recording was Add Some Music - which Brian himself wrote! A fact that disrupts the whole intent of the scene.

So one of the things that people are suggesting is how much this alters what has been a long, ongoing popular assumption about what happened to Brian after Smile. Yes, probably most people here don't share that opinion (and, then again, maybe a former post will suggest that some do) but I think one of the central points here is that this set challenges that particular sentiment.
Logged
Chocolate Shake Man
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 2869


View Profile
« Reply #22 on: July 01, 2017, 08:26:33 AM »

OK, I think I found the post in question:

http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,2325.msg46616.html#msg46616

"having heard nearly 90% of the tape from those years, I can tell you that the Beach Boys after Smiley Smile did a very good job of convincing the record companies that Brian was there, when he wasn't. Why? Because he was mentally ill with untreated bipolar, and because he was full tilt in cocaine dependence."
« Last Edit: July 01, 2017, 08:27:22 AM by Chocolate Shake Man » Logged
Don Malcolm
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1053



View Profile
« Reply #23 on: July 01, 2017, 08:30:04 AM »

The post-SMiLE period has been exaggerated and distorted over the years. Brian was clearly "psychedelicate" in this early time frame but clearly still functioning quite well. The problem was that the music was so "out of step" with what was going on elsewhere that the rock press was doubly flummoxed--WTF was this stuff on the one hand, and what a bunch of steps "backward" from GV and the grand "orchestral maneuvers" in SMiLE.

I doubt most people here actually agree with the premise of this thread as stated in the subject matter. The biggest revelation here is the hidden threads between the post-SMiLE music of 1967 and how Brian was still working on several fronts at once, with different stylistic approaches that still manage to merge. That's what's mind-blowing about this set, and with all the great work from Howie and Mark, I think it might be Alan Boyd who deserves special mention for ordering the material in a way that brings all this out even more.
Logged
clack
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 537


View Profile
« Reply #24 on: July 01, 2017, 08:32:11 AM »

The story I remember hearing about the WH sessions is that Brian produced most of the lp, but after the Redwood/Darlin' mutiny he stepped back and let the rest of the band -- Carl and Bruce, mostly -- take charge in the studio.

Was Brian involved at all in 'How She Boogalooed It'?
Logged
gfx
Pages: [1] 2 3 Go Up Print 
gfx
Jump to:  
gfx
Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines Page created in 0.513 seconds with 22 queries.
Helios Multi design by Bloc
gfx
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!