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rab2591
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« Reply #100 on: December 28, 2016, 06:01:57 PM »

When the atmosphere surrounding even on-topic posts like those about Pet Sounds and California Girls starts veering off into political issues, it could very well create an implied vibe where that kind of thing becomes the norm, which could have been the case with Desper and how he got the screws put to him over what people thought he was saying and took as political commentary or endorsement. If the atmosphere isn't there to begin with, if it didn't feel at times like more than half of the new posts on the homepage list were about Trump or politics, maybe that would not have happened as it did.

I'm shocked that he got chased away like that. And I totally agree; the subject of Trump is divisive and seeing his name at least 6 times a day on a forum supposedly here for Beach Boys discussion isn't doing this place any favors. Again, this is what I mean: people getting banned, being told to f*** off, at least one poster (not even a Trump fan) quietly leaving, a moderator taking a month long hiatus, one of the best insiders this forum has ever seen being chased off, all relating to one subject: Donald J Trump. Has there ever been any subject like this on this forum before? Hell no...should we be reminded of it 6 times a day? Should the topic that drove Desper away even allowed to be given server space on Smiley Smile?

How about a ban on political talk as long as it doesn't relate to the band. If Mike goes on with a inauguration concert with his touring act, I think we all have the right to talk about it given it deals with the band itself. If we want to bitch about the Reagan years relating to The Beach Boys we should be able to. But venting about Trump policies at least 6 times a day? As I say there are other political forums out there that are built for such talk. I don't see the big deal in posting on those forums.
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« Reply #101 on: December 28, 2016, 06:02:15 PM »

With an open forum, I think it has to come down to the decisions of individual posters, especially with this forum having specific people and interests wanting to see it devolve into chaos and wanting to drive people away. The old adage perhaps, think before you post and consider how anyone looking in will perceive it. If I were someone who comes here to read about the music and the band and saw some of what I saw recently, which was a majority of new posts centered around political content versus music content, and if I were coming here to read about California Girls the song and saw as many politically-charged posts in that topic as were posted, I'd probably see the board as some who have wanted to put the screws to this place and people here for several years would like it to be seen or how they portray it since they failed in trying to reshape and censor it.

I'd also say if the stated purpose of a board is centered around one topic, as far-reaching as that may be, and more posts are coming in off-topic than on, that may be something to look at moving forward whether it's a dry news cycle for the main topic or not. But again, with an open forum a lot comes down to the choices of the people posting.
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« Reply #102 on: December 28, 2016, 06:08:08 PM »

When the atmosphere surrounding even on-topic posts like those about Pet Sounds and California Girls starts veering off into political issues, it could very well create an implied vibe where that kind of thing becomes the norm, which could have been the case with Desper and how he got the screws put to him over what people thought he was saying and took as political commentary or endorsement. If the atmosphere isn't there to begin with, if it didn't feel at times like more than half of the new posts on the homepage list were about Trump or politics, maybe that would not have happened as it did.

I'm shocked that he got chased away like that. And I totally agree; the subject of Trump is divisive and seeing his name at least 6 times a day on a forum supposedly here for Beach Boys discussion isn't doing this place any favors. Again, this is what I mean: people getting banned, being told to f*** off, at least one poster (not even a Trump fan) quietly leaving, a moderator taking a month long hiatus, one of the best insiders this forum has ever seen being chased off, all relating to one subject: Donald J Trump. Has there ever been any subject like this on this forum before? Hell no...should we be reminded of it 6 times a day? Should the topic that drove Desper away even allowed to be given server space on Smiley Smile?

How about a ban on political talk as long as it doesn't relate to the band. If Mike goes on with a inauguration concert with his touring act, I think we all have the right to talk about it given it deals with the band itself. If we want to bitch about the Reagan years relating to The Beach Boys we should be able to. But venting about Trump policies at least 6 times a day? As I say there are other political forums out there that are built for such talk. I don't see the big deal in posting on those forums.

I agree - and I would not like to see venting about Trump or politics in general unrelated to the band posted every day for the next x-amount of months or years. We know the election cycle rubbed a lot of people raw in many ways, but maybe some readers come here to get away from all of that and talk-read about the topics related to music.

Consider if it reached a point where people stopped coming here and took a hiatus because the off-topic political talk became too much of an everyday occurrence, maybe that talk could be limited by the posters engaging in it. I'm just expressing opinions out loud.
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Emily
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« Reply #103 on: December 28, 2016, 06:16:31 PM »

OK dudes. Enjoy your forum.
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« Reply #104 on: December 28, 2016, 06:23:57 PM »

oops wrong thread
« Last Edit: December 28, 2016, 06:24:45 PM by ♩♬☮ Dude Where's My Frog?! ♯♫♩☮ » Logged

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« Reply #105 on: December 28, 2016, 06:24:49 PM »

Quote
Let me give you an example: when CD and I were having an irritated throw down in the election thread a "break it up" from a mod would've seemed suitable. When someone is insulting Stephen Desper, a "that's out of line" from a mod would've been suitable. When rab goes on an emotional spiel in a topical thread about thinking other people shouldn't talk about what they talk about, a "settle down" would be appropriate. When I needle him about it, a "that's not necessary" might be effective.
Then, if people persist repeatedly after being told to cut it out, a suspension might be called for.
It's not the subject, it's the behavior.

That is how it had been previously...I think a return to that is indeed in order. I don't know how we got so far away from that.
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« Reply #106 on: December 28, 2016, 06:38:04 PM »

It got away because of a small group who no longer posts here targeting the moderation of this board and the moderators personally when that group repeatedly tried and failed to shape it according to what they either wanted or had to do. If someone or something they didn't like was called out, it was good moderation. If it was something or someone they liked or agreed with, they unloaded on whichever moderators stepped in.

When it was suggested that a special topic be set up to allow people to question the mods before it turned into a place to trash the moderators over decisions and other things, and when that kind of thing was encouraged by some here now suggesting more moderation be applied post-to-post, where were those calls for suspensions and "settle down" and the like at that time? I don't recall any of that sentiment, maybe because of who was involved. Too big to ban or challenge, too close on social media, etc. Who knows. Whatever the case, all of that crap failed.

Maybe things were running too smoothly after all that nonsense left, or some just can't bring themselves to admit what the causes of the big issues and tensions here really were.
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« Reply #107 on: December 28, 2016, 06:51:58 PM »

Understood, but at this point we need to put that behind us and concentrate on right now. 99% of the riff-raff is gone, and that other remaining bit is on the way out providing the passive-aggressive swipes persist. My filter is gone...I tried for a long time to be neutral and understanding, and it got me nowhere. Well, I'm at the point where that's done...regardless of who is saying what, right is still right (and wrong is still wrong).  My main concern (online, that is) is getting this board to where it needs to be, and in order to do so, it will take all of us.
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« Reply #108 on: December 28, 2016, 07:08:09 PM »

When the atmosphere surrounding even on-topic posts like those about Pet Sounds and California Girls starts veering off into political issues, it could very well create an implied vibe where that kind of thing becomes the norm, which could have been the case with Desper and how he got the screws put to him over what people thought he was saying and took as political commentary or endorsement. If the atmosphere isn't there to begin with, if it didn't feel at times like more than half of the new posts on the homepage list were about Trump or politics, maybe that would not have happened as it did.

I'm shocked that he got chased away like that. And I totally agree; the subject of Trump is divisive and seeing his name at least 6 times a day on a forum supposedly here for Beach Boys discussion isn't doing this place any favors. Again, this is what I mean: people getting banned, being told to f*** off, at least one poster (not even a Trump fan) quietly leaving, a moderator taking a month long hiatus, one of the best insiders this forum has ever seen being chased off, all relating to one subject: Donald J Trump. Has there ever been any subject like this on this forum before? Hell no...should we be reminded of it 6 times a day? Should the topic that drove Desper away even allowed to be given server space on Smiley Smile?

How about a ban on political talk as long as it doesn't relate to the band. If Mike goes on with a inauguration concert with his touring act, I think we all have the right to talk about it given it deals with the band itself. If we want to bitch about the Reagan years relating to The Beach Boys we should be able to. But venting about Trump policies at least 6 times a day? As I say there are other political forums out there that are built for such talk. I don't see the big deal in posting on those forums.
I might as well point out the stupidity here.
 ALL of the incidents mentioned in paragraph 1 of rab's latest post happened in on-topic threads. Yet, in paragraph 2, it is suggested that the sandbox threads - not responsible for ANY of those incidents - be banned, while the on-topic threads be should continue.  Also, MORE of the "clogging up the board" and the <<dread>> seeing Trump's name were from the on-topic threads than the sandbox threads. This is such a pile of unbelievably whiny idiocy. The TONE of the on topic threads was not in the least helped by the contributions of the lead complainer in this thread who likes to turn things into meta-attacks. Rab has flounced around before about other people not talking about things the way rab likes and he/she will again. Humoring this BS, saying, yes, poster, you get to control what other people say, is a mistake.
But, GF will humor it this time because GF has a grudge. In GF's post above, he expresses his irritation with me for trying to get the constant, at that time, arguments about moderation off the main board, which I did. Because THAT at the time was what would have driven people away. That became a sh*t show and I'm sorry to have been involved, but that was not handled well on anyone's part.

 I have no idea what that last "some just can't bring themselves" typically cryptic statement is about. But a few people were happily enjoying their little corner of the board. Some OTHER people got in their usual drama and one of the lead dramatists is using the opportunity to get a grudge-holding mod to shut down some people he doesn't like.
Well done.
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« Reply #109 on: December 28, 2016, 07:23:12 PM »

Quote
I might as well point out the stupidity here.
 ALL of the incidents mentioned in paragraph 1 of rab's latest post happened in on-topic threads. Yet, in paragraph 2, it is suggested that the sandbox threads - not responsible for ANY of those incidents - be banned, while the on-topic threads be should continue.  

I was following up the point Guitarfool had made about the general posts about Trump all over the board contributing to the ease in which people bitched about him in the general on topic section which then possibly led to Desper being chased off. There's a difference between talking about Mike doing an inauguration concert under the Beach Boys name and incessantly bitching day in and day out about Trump's political policies.

Quote
Also, MORE of the "clogging up the board" and the <<dread>> seeing Trump's name were from the on-topic threads than the sandbox threads. This is such a pile of unbelievably whiny idiocy.

Okay, again I know of at least one poster who left because they were sick of seeing his name here. That your off-topic posting is keeping at least one poster who most always posted on-topic material annoys the hell out of me. I feel bad that you find it to be whiny idiocy.

Quote
Rab has flounced around before about other people not talking about things the way rab likes and he/she will again. Humoring this BS, saying, yes, poster, you get to control what other people say, is a mistake.

Could you please detail what you mean in this first sentence here?

Quote
But, GF will humor it this time because GF has a grudge. In GF's post above, he expresses his irritation with me for trying to get the constant, at that time, arguments about moderation off the main board, which I did. Because THAT at the time was what would have driven people away. That became a sh*t show and I'm sorry to have been involved, but that was not handled well on anyone's part.

 I have no idea what that last "some just can't bring themselves" typically cryptic statement is about. But a few people were happily enjoying their little corner of the board. Some OTHER people got in their usual drama and one of the lead dramatists is using the opportunity to get a grudge-holding mod to shut down some people he doesn't like.
Well done.

ok.
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« Reply #110 on: December 28, 2016, 07:27:02 PM »

Quote
I might as well point out the stupidity here.
 ALL of the incidents mentioned in paragraph 1 of rab's latest post happened in on-topic threads. Yet, in paragraph 2, it is suggested that the sandbox threads - not responsible for ANY of those incidents - be banned, while the on-topic threads be should continue.  

I was following up the point Guitarfool had made about the general posts about Trump all over the board contributing to the ease in which people bitched about him in the general on topic section which then possibly led to Desper being chased off. There's a difference between talking about Mike doing an inauguration concert under the Beach Boys name and incessantly bitching day in and day out about Trump's political policies.

Quote
Also, MORE of the "clogging up the board" and the <<dread>> seeing Trump's name were from the on-topic threads than the sandbox threads. This is such a pile of unbelievably whiny idiocy.

Okay, again I know of at least one poster who left because they were sick of seeing his name here. That your off-topic posting is keeping at least one poster who most always posted on-topic material annoys the hell out of me. I feel bad that you find it to be whiny idiocy.

Quote
Rab has flounced around before about other people not talking about things the way rab likes and he/she will again. Humoring this BS, saying, yes, poster, you get to control what other people say, is a mistake.

Could you please detail what you mean in this first sentence here?

Quote
But, GF will humor it this time because GF has a grudge. In GF's post above, he expresses his irritation with me for trying to get the constant, at that time, arguments about moderation off the main board, which I did. Because THAT at the time was what would have driven people away. That became a sh*t show and I'm sorry to have been involved, but that was not handled well on anyone's part.

 I have no idea what that last "some just can't bring themselves" typically cryptic statement is about. But a few people were happily enjoying their little corner of the board. Some OTHER people got in their usual drama and one of the lead dramatists is using the opportunity to get a grudge-holding mod to shut down some people he doesn't like.
Well done.

ok.

Once again, there was MORE, by at least a factor of two, posting on the main board that in the sandbox about Trump. You can blame it on the sandbox all you want, but it doesn't hold water. And I know about 50 people who left the board for reasons not to with me. Namely, this kind of meta bs.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2016, 07:36:50 PM by Emily » Logged
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« Reply #111 on: December 28, 2016, 07:41:51 PM »

I'm not really sure why there is such a big debate about this.  As has been mentioned, the one active political thread has been very civil, even if it's only because the people who post in it are usually in agreement, relatively speaking.  There's no reason for that discussion elsewhere unless it relates to the band, also mentioned before.  The people who post in that thread manage to keep political discussion out of other threads.  Perhaps ironically, the people who do bring up politics on Beach Boy related threads rarely or never post in political threads.  I would say that's because they can't further the conversation beyond saying Trump is an orange moron or Hillary is a criminal.

An open forum is what allows stuff like this to fester.  It is what makes people like Mr. Desper leave the forum.  That thread was particularly unfortunate considering a mod joined in on ganging up on him.  Self moderating doesn't work online just as it doesn't work in the real world.  There are too many people who refuse to be civil for one reason or another.
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« Reply #112 on: December 28, 2016, 07:43:46 PM »

Once again, there was MORE, by at least a factor of two, posting on the main board that in the sandbox about Trump. You can blame it on the sandbox all you want, but it doesn't hold water.

I imagine that on-topic talk about Mike using the Beach Boys to perform a concert for Trump's inauguration is far less annoying than multiple daily updates on what new idiocy the Trump presidency will bring to America. An inauguration happens once every 4 years, whereas policy that is constantly bitched about has the chance of being rolled out on a daily basis. You can see why over a period time this topic could get on people's nerves. Maybe you can't see that.

And again...

Quote
Rab has flounced around before about other people not talking about things the way rab likes and he/she will again. Humoring this BS, saying, yes, poster, you get to control what other people say, is a mistake.

Could you please detail what you mean in this first sentence here?
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« Reply #113 on: December 28, 2016, 07:50:41 PM »

Once again, there was MORE, by at least a factor of two, posting on the main board that in the sandbox about Trump. You can blame it on the sandbox all you want, but it doesn't hold water.

I imagine that on-topic talk about Mike using the Beach Boys to perform a concert for Trump's inauguration is far less annoying than multiple daily updates on what new idiocy the Trump presidency will bring to America. An inauguration happens once every 4 years, whereas policy that is constantly bitched about has the chance of being rolled out on a daily basis. You can see why over a period time this topic could get on people's nerves. Maybe you can't see that.

And again...

Quote
Rab has flounced around before about other people not talking about things the way rab likes and he/she will again. Humoring this BS, saying, yes, poster, you get to control what other people say, is a mistake.

Could you please detail what you mean in this first sentence here?
If they don't like the topic, but repeatedly go in and read it as you do, I can imagine it would get annoying. That's why I don't read topics I don't enjoy. Because reading them every day would annoy me. But go ahead, blame me for your lack of impulse control.
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« Reply #114 on: December 28, 2016, 07:56:52 PM »

Once again, there was MORE, by at least a factor of two, posting on the main board that in the sandbox about Trump. You can blame it on the sandbox all you want, but it doesn't hold water.

I imagine that on-topic talk about Mike using the Beach Boys to perform a concert for Trump's inauguration is far less annoying than multiple daily updates on what new idiocy the Trump presidency will bring to America. An inauguration happens once every 4 years, whereas policy that is constantly bitched about has the chance of being rolled out on a daily basis. You can see why over a period time this topic could get on people's nerves. Maybe you can't see that.

And again...

Quote
Rab has flounced around before about other people not talking about things the way rab likes and he/she will again. Humoring this BS, saying, yes, poster, you get to control what other people say, is a mistake.

Could you please detail what you mean in this first sentence here?
If they don't like the topic, but repeatedly go in and read it as you do, I can imagine it would get annoying. That's why I don't read topics I don't enjoy. Because reading them every day would annoy me. But go ahead, blame me for your lack of impulse control.

Please try to understand this for the last time: I'm saying that the title of your daily updates about Trump take up space on the homepage, and seeing this 6 times a day for the next 4 years will get flippin annoying as hell and drive more people away than it already has (the person it already drove away was someone who didn't find this place repetitive and boring and who posted actual on-topic discussion).

And yet again...

Quote
Rab has flounced around before about other people not talking about things the way rab likes and he/she will again. Humoring this BS, saying, yes, poster, you get to control what other people say, is a mistake.

Could you please detail what you mean in this first sentence here?
[/quote]
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« Reply #115 on: December 28, 2016, 07:59:29 PM »

I wish there was a way we could filter topics from showing on our news feed. There *might* be a way to do it by board. I'm trying to look at the board settings to see
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« Reply #116 on: December 28, 2016, 08:00:53 PM »

I've SEEN you in that thread multiple times and multiple times in this thread you've made reference to the quite peaceful CONTENTS of that thread and then made reference the the DISRUPTIVE contents of other threads that have put the NAME of Trump on the board MORE than that thread has. Please edit your comments for logical flaws. I think illogic of this sort should be banned.
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« Reply #117 on: December 28, 2016, 08:05:51 PM »

I have a hopefully humorous (temporary) solution to everyone's problem
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« Reply #118 on: December 28, 2016, 08:07:23 PM »

I have a hopefully humorous (temporary) solution to everyone's problem
I like it.
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« Reply #119 on: December 28, 2016, 08:09:39 PM »

LOL it changed the title of the threads too...
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« Reply #120 on: December 28, 2016, 08:10:15 PM »

This is a question/comment in reply to Emily:

Consider that the main grudges were mostly coming from the small group of posters who were complaining the loudest about the moderation here. When their requests or demands along with those complaints were not filled to their satisfaction, they started making it personal against the moderators themselves. Instead of giving them the scrutiny you're asking for now from the moderators, you suggested opening up a specific topic for them to unload, which they did until the facts pretty much destroyed a lot of what they were trying to claim much less what they were complaining about. When some were banned for breaking the rules of this board separate from complaining about moderation, when some simply left in a huff over whatever issues they claimed drove them off, they took those grudges to at least three other music forums and publicly began lying about and taking personal shots at me, Billy, and even Charles LePage.

Did you ever consider or observe who the loudest complainers posting here about the moderation when you suggested opening a topic for them to complain really were, in relation to all the personal attacks, lies, and other activity they engaged in across at least three other forums and social media never mind a history among some dating back multiple years on multiple fan communities and boards?

When all of that left this place, it ran smoothly with only a few minor hiccups as can be expected. It's not only obvious, it's still on display if you look for it.

A few people tried and failed repeatedly in whatever they were hoping to do regarding changing this board as they saw fit, or as they had to do - See them for the grudges. The word "toxic" gets thrown around a lot by some regarding posters here, mods here, and even the board itself - I'd suggest looking for the real toxicity, it's not hard to find.
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« Reply #121 on: December 28, 2016, 08:14:33 PM »

I never understood the politics of all that and I still don't. I didn't mean to start that thread to initiate what it turned out to be. I just meant to steer the commentary from every other thread, which was where it had been. As I said, I'm sorry I did it, but it was not with ill intent.
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« Reply #122 on: December 28, 2016, 08:20:29 PM »

I've SEEN you in that thread multiple times and multiple times in this thread you've made reference to the quite peaceful CONTENTS of that thread and then made reference the the DISRUPTIVE contents of other threads that have put the NAME of Voldermort on the board MORE than that thread has. Please edit your comments for logical flaws. I think illogic of this sort should be banned.

I don't think you're actually getting what I'm saying, but alright. Anywho, as was said before, Billy said that talk of Donald J Trumph is allowed in the sandbox, and I'm sure it will stay that way. As I said and agreed with pages back, those of us annoyed by it will have to do our best to ignore it. Case closed for me.

And again:

Quote
Rab has flounced around before about other people not talking about things the way rab likes and he/she will again. Humoring this BS, saying, yes, poster, you get to control what other people say, is a mistake.

Could you please detail what you mean in this first sentence here?
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« Reply #123 on: December 28, 2016, 08:25:23 PM »

I never understood the politics of all that and I still don't. I didn't mean to start that thread to initiate what it turned out to be. I just meant to steer the commentary from every other thread, which was where it had been. As I said, I'm sorry I did it, but it was not with ill intent.

The people complaining the loudest were and are the politics of much of the issues that had this board in a mess for some time before it all left for greener pastures, voluntarily or because they were banned for breaking the rules here. As far as reasons why they did certain things, the behaviors from those various people on display here and elsewhere, the lying and attempts at slander, combined with a host of other actions and behaviors should at least give an idea what was and is still behind it.

When some people don't get their way, when some people can't change a situation or win an argument against simple facts, they resort to personal attacks and lies because there is nothing logical left to throw into the disagreement. That's the result of the politics behind a lot of it. Glad it's moved out of here.
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Emily
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« Reply #124 on: December 28, 2016, 08:42:44 PM »

I never understood the politics of all that and I still don't. I didn't mean to start that thread to initiate what it turned out to be. I just meant to steer the commentary from every other thread, which was where it had been. As I said, I'm sorry I did it, but it was not with ill intent.

The people complaining the loudest were and are the politics of much of the issues that had this board in a mess for some time before it all left for greener pastures, voluntarily or because they were banned for breaking the rules here. As far as reasons why they did certain things, the behaviors from those various people on display here and elsewhere, the lying and attempts at slander, combined with a host of other actions and behaviors should at least give an idea what was and is still behind it.

When some people don't get their way, when some people can't change a situation or win an argument against simple facts, they resort to personal attacks and lies because there is nothing logical left to throw into the disagreement. That's the result of the politics behind a lot of it. Glad it's moved out of here.
That's as may be, but I think you think I know more about Beach Boy politics than I do. You talk about history, other forums, social media...
This is the only Beach Boy forum I participate in. I don't know the history of beach boy fandom particularly and I have made very few connections with any beach boy fans outside of this forum. I find many of your comments cryptic and honestly don't understand the clues you give in them. I don't know why all that happened beyond the obvious pro/anti Mike Love factions. I don't know when or why some people started having issues with you. I saw that it was spilling all over the forum. People kept asking it to be moved out of the topical threads but it persisted, so I started a sandbox thread for it. I tried to talk with you about perhaps ways to settle things down. That didn't work. I tried to talk to some of them about settling down. That didn't work. I have no idea why anyone here cares so much about what other people here are saying - whether they Mike Love or not, whether they talk about politics or not, whether they should only say nice things about band members. I find the fan community to be really weird. But I found a few people I really enjoy talking to. And I'm happy in that one little thread doing that talking, for the most part. So some other people in some other thread offended Desper and got in some thing with the professor and now the perfectly innocent thread that I enjoy, in which none of those people are involved is threatened because rab is annoyed by it and is creating a bogus irrational link? Wth is that? And what does it have to do with that earlier stuff?
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