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drbeachboy
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« Reply #175 on: May 08, 2016, 02:13:25 PM »


Reading this account, (much of the attack on video), is stomach turning and disgusting! He should be thrown in prison for the maximum allowable penalty!

My questions are when did Brian's camp know about this and why wasn't he immediately fired? Anybody know how many shows he played after his arrest?
I can't find any information about when he was arrested, nor can I find anything that indicates that any details were made public until the conviction. There's no reason to assume that the BW camp didn't respond appropriately when they learned what happened.

Well, I don't think it's a coincidence that Scott was never part of the Pet Sounds 50 tour.  So I think they probably knew and let him go quietly.  It might be for a different reason but if not, it seems pretty convenient.  If the press got a hold of this while he was part of the tour, it would reflect on the whole band and on Brian and that's not something anybody would want, including Scott probably.
I am sure that he was not permitted to leave the country, pending the trial.
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« Reply #176 on: May 08, 2016, 02:17:03 PM »


Reading this account, (much of the attack on video), is stomach turning and disgusting! He should be thrown in prison for the maximum allowable penalty!

My questions are when did Brian's camp know about this and why wasn't he immediately fired? Anybody know how many shows he played after his arrest?
I can't find any information about when he was arrested, nor can I find anything that indicates that any details were made public until the conviction. There's no reason to assume that the BW camp didn't respond appropriately when they learned what happened.

Well, I don't think it's a coincidence that Scott was never part of the Pet Sounds 50 tour.  So I think they probably knew and let him go quietly.  It might be for a different reason but if not, it seems pretty convenient.  If the press got a hold of this while he was part of the tour, it would reflect on the whole band and on Brian and that's not something anybody would want, including Scott probably.
I am sure that he was not permitted to leave the country, pending the trial.

Good point.
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« Reply #177 on: May 08, 2016, 02:19:11 PM »

Well, I don't think it's a coincidence that Scott was never part of the Pet Sounds 50 tour.  So I think they probably knew and let him go quietly.  

Yeah obviously they knew as this crime happened in 2014.
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« Reply #178 on: May 08, 2016, 02:24:37 PM »

Here is one of the more recent sources, Emily:

http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/rsavcaf9513.pdf

I think a heated issue of this type, which quickly draws social and political battlelines, is something that can easily be swayed by definitional parsing. Clearly the incidence of inappropriate sexual advances is much higher than outright rape. Getting a precse handle on those figures is quite a bit murkier, however, because there is some unavoidable interpretive grey area in that terminology. The CDC's study, as noted in many media articles, is not definitive due to reasons already stated and there are massive problems in getting definitive data.

What I think is clear is that there is a still a lack of synthesis  between feminist critique and the dangerous social pressures placed on young women at virtually all college campuses around the USA. Reading Peggy Orenstein's GIRLS AND SEX will make that abundantly and harrowingly clear. That is why it's undeniable that rape/assault figures are much higher there than anywhere else, because so many triggering factors simply get slammed together. Whether it's actually as high as 1 in 5 is not an incontrovertible fact, but what's important for people to know is that even if it is 1 in 7 or 1 in 10, it is still a shocking statistic and needs more resources applied to the problem so that it can be minimized to the greatest extent possible.

I think Adam made an excellent point that those people who are convicted of these crimes are (quite justifiably) shamed for the rest of their lives. Our best bet for the future is to try to deal with these difficult issues prior to sending boys to college without a thorough grounding in proper conduct with regard to the opposite sex.

What's nice to see in that report is the downward trend. When I was in college, soon before the start-date of that data, the rate was probably higher, extrapolating from that trend and from experience. It's certainly the case that young men and women these days are much more educated about their own rights and about other people's rights regarding sexual activity. When I was in college the sort of thing described in the video, without the elevator, would have happened to several people in one weekend. It was a basic, everyday part of frat culture.
The downward trend is a good sign.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2016, 02:26:55 PM by Emily » Logged
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« Reply #179 on: May 08, 2016, 02:36:34 PM »

 And I'm used to people getting mad at me because I won't just jump on board whatever train everyone is on...It's a moral question to me, and so no offense meant, I don't care what anybody else happens to think about it.  A lot of times, doing what you think is right is going to p*ss everyone around you off.  

Welcome to my every day reality.
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« Reply #180 on: May 08, 2016, 02:41:36 PM »

Some indications going around on FB that this is indeed murkier than presented initially. Unfortunately, the reporter wasn't actually at the trial, so we only have the prosecution's account of the evidence. Which, as Adam pointed out, makes him look terrible.

In the 1960s, of course, no one would have thought twice about this. Which is a good thing. Newer attitudes are a good thing.
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« Reply #181 on: May 08, 2016, 02:48:03 PM »

In the 1960s, of course, no one would have thought twice about this. Which is a good thing.

It is?  Shocked
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« Reply #182 on: May 08, 2016, 03:00:05 PM »

Our society is improving on these issues instead of "it's only Rock and roll" Wink
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« Reply #183 on: May 08, 2016, 03:46:55 PM »

Inelegantly phrased post revised!
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« Reply #184 on: May 08, 2016, 04:00:49 PM »

Some indications going around on FB that this is indeed murkier than presented initially. Unfortunately, the reporter wasn't actually at the trial, so we only have the prosecution's account of the evidence. Which, as Adam pointed out, makes him look terrible.

In the 1960s, of course, no one would have thought twice about this. Which is a good thing. Newer attitudes are a good thing.
What are the indications?
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« Reply #185 on: May 08, 2016, 05:13:37 PM »

Disappointed that this thread about rape is still in the General On Topic arena.

Thought we were here for the music. Surely the Sandbox is for this serious stuff.

I get why some are speculating as to evidence that wasn't presented in a news column. However it's the evidence that was presented to the jury that's pertinent.
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« Reply #186 on: May 08, 2016, 05:27:22 PM »

Just goes to show you can't really know people.

I mean, a member of a band (any band) could have loads of kiddie porn on their laptop and we wouldn't be any wiser until they were nabbed by the FBI.

There are a lot of weird people out there, hiding terrible secrets behind their masks of civility.

At least I can rest in the knowledge that my skeletons in the closet aren't so bad.

Not that I actually have skeletons... in my closet...  angel   
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« Reply #187 on: May 08, 2016, 09:45:10 PM »

Some indications going around on FB that this is indeed murkier than presented initially.

Care to elaborate?
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« Reply #188 on: May 09, 2016, 05:17:06 AM »

Just finding out about this terrible sickening turn of events. 

Very sad indeed.  Thoughts and good vibes to the victim first of all. 
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« Reply #189 on: May 09, 2016, 07:43:56 AM »

Let me be very clear that the one and only victim of this is of course the victim, and the family connected to this who have been affected.

But it has also dawned on me that the already super-slim chances of some additional release of C50 footage has now likely gone down the toilet. I suppose some audio releases wouldn't be impossible; one person can easily be mixed out I suppose. But given how it was already unlikely that stuff was going to be revisited, I'm curious if essentially pretty much most pre-2016 Brian stuff (including C50) being revisited is now an impossibility. And as I'm sure others might feel, I don't even know how *I* feel about that prospect. Too soon anyway I suppose.

Hopefully both the tour and perhaps a resulting Blu-ray release of the PS 50th tour could help to get Brian and the band and fans past this.
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« Reply #190 on: May 09, 2016, 07:47:57 AM »

Let me be very clear that the one and only victim of this is of course the victim, and the family connected to this who have been affected.

But it has also dawned on me that the already super-slim chances of some additional release of C50 footage has now likely gone down the toilet. I suppose some audio releases wouldn't be impossible; one person can easily be mixed out I suppose. But given how it was already unlikely that stuff was going to be revisited, I'm curious if essentially pretty much most pre-2016 Brian stuff (including C50) being revisited is now an impossibility. And as I'm sure others might feel, I don't even know how *I* feel about that prospect. Too soon anyway I suppose.

Hopefully both the tour and perhaps a resulting Blu-ray release of the PS 50th tour could help to get Brian and the band and fans past this.

I didn't even think about that.  But editing can accomplish a lot.  I just recently broke down and got the existing C50 BluRay, and Scott is barely seen. 
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« Reply #191 on: May 09, 2016, 08:29:31 AM »

Let me be very clear that the one and only victim of this is of course the victim, and the family connected to this who have been affected.

But it has also dawned on me that the already super-slim chances of some additional release of C50 footage has now likely gone down the toilet. I suppose some audio releases wouldn't be impossible; one person can easily be mixed out I suppose. But given how it was already unlikely that stuff was going to be revisited, I'm curious if essentially pretty much most pre-2016 Brian stuff (including C50) being revisited is now an impossibility. And as I'm sure others might feel, I don't even know how *I* feel about that prospect. Too soon anyway I suppose.

Hopefully both the tour and perhaps a resulting Blu-ray release of the PS 50th tour could help to get Brian and the band and fans past this.
Hey Jude - the footage is not even on my radar screen.   This jury trial which found Bennett guilty appears from the very limited info, that related to the trial in that article to be very convinced by the evidence. Someone kindly attached a link with the timeline of court events including pre-trial conferences.  My hat is off to Brian's organization for allowing the process to go forward with discretion and be measured in it's statement.

Rape is a crime of power and control (over the victim.)

Part of the reason, apart from punishment, with incarceration is "rehabilitation," and I do hope that whatever, perhaps underlying issues compelled this horrendous action, will be addressed medically, if it already has not begun, during the pre-trial phase.  How he addresses these issues matters, because at some point he will be re-integrated into society.  And, I hope Scott's family has support to go forward and be ok.  They are victims, of this bad action, too.   

Hotels are very much aware, after the very public Erin Andrews trial (which went on for a very long time) about security and safety for everyone who uses a hotel and expects that they can move around in safety. That girl was not smart to be so intoxicated, but even if she was, should have been able to go to her room, to sleep it off, without being assaulted.

The thing that really baffles me is how a guy, whose living has largely been made in front of a camera, and in a place where he knew there were security cameras everywhere (maybe more-so in a casino-hotel) would disregard those onmi-present devices in the elevators and hallways.  There are signs everywhere telling you of the presence of cameras.  But, even without the presence of cameras, it is a terrible breach of any "gentleman" to violate another person.  DNA evidence and a security camera system is hard to beat.     

But, it is great that Billy will be on the road with Brian.  He "knows the road" and needs neither a map, nor lyrics.  Billy is the best!  Wink
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« Reply #192 on: May 09, 2016, 08:33:53 AM »

Let me be very clear that the one and only victim of this is of course the victim, and the family connected to this who have been affected.

But it has also dawned on me that the already super-slim chances of some additional release of C50 footage has now likely gone down the toilet. I suppose some audio releases wouldn't be impossible; one person can easily be mixed out I suppose. But given how it was already unlikely that stuff was going to be revisited, I'm curious if essentially pretty much most pre-2016 Brian stuff (including C50) being revisited is now an impossibility. And as I'm sure others might feel, I don't even know how *I* feel about that prospect. Too soon anyway I suppose.

Hopefully both the tour and perhaps a resulting Blu-ray release of the PS 50th tour could help to get Brian and the band and fans past this.

I didn't even think about that.  But editing can accomplish a lot.  I just recently broke down and got the existing C50 BluRay, and Scott is barely seen. 

Certainly editing and whatnot could address the issues. But I'm thinking it's all a non-starter now, mostly because it already was.

On the musical/entertainment/fan side of things (which is obviously of no importance in relation to this awful crime), I think the best thing to do is continue to do an awesome tour, and perhaps if we're lucky they'll do a Blu-ray for PS50. Plus, I'm not ever prepared to stop at least *hoping* for another reunion.
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« Reply #193 on: May 09, 2016, 08:49:11 AM »

Er, Derek and the Dominos is still in print. And Jim Gordon was more famous than Scott (and his crime more horrific too).
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« Reply #194 on: May 09, 2016, 08:59:20 AM »

What I see, looking back and trying to read between the lines, is what I saw the first time: a much older man and younger woman, he in a famous touring band: socially, there's an imbalance that he should have been cautious not to exploit (obviously he wasn't). She was impaired enough that she wasn't fully ambulatory and that she didn't remember anything. He was unimpaired enough that he remembered things and that he got her to his room and out again. He raped her on camera in the hall. Later, he left her passed out in the hall.
Unless the article is actually incorrect, those are the facts.
What's the mitigation here?

Hi Emily -

I don't think that anyone here has been trying to make it all seem less tragic than it actually was, or exculpate Scott Bennett as to having done something bad. That wasn't my point, nor that of others (I think). I wanted to emphasize that with what we do know, we actually know not that much. Well, I am speaking for myself: I don't have the slightest idea about what was going through Scott's mind, save (probably) for my strong belief that he, IMHO an intelligent, sensitive man, can't possibly have been in his normal state of being when he did what he did, given the enormous risks that would have been so obvious to any clear-headed person in those surroundings (well, risks... I'd even go so far as to say that someone in a normal state would know that he'd have a 100% chance of being found out, given today's video observation techniques).

That is what puzzles me the most, in fact. That is why I used words like lapsus, he may have been aware regarding the events, and hence have a recollection of these, but at the same time he may not have had any capacity for sound judgment.

Perhaps one or another psychological assessment will be made, and perhaps even made public.


Does it really matter what his mental state was at the time?  This was right after a gig, so he was obviously functional on the day of.  Apparently he was intoxicated, but that excuses nothing.  It does come across as apologist to speculate that maybe he "did not have any capacity for sound judgement" and to say that on other occasions he seemed intelligent and sensitive.  Intelligent people do horrific things all the time.  People make choices, and it looks like he made a choice to get drunk and do something horrible.  

Yes, the media sensationalizes things all the time.  However, we're not talking about an allegation here.  This went to court, and the court found him guilty (based on video evidence).  
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« Reply #195 on: May 09, 2016, 09:00:39 AM »

Er, Derek and the Dominos is still in print. And Jim Gordon was more famous than Scott (and his crime more horrific too).

Yeah, that was released before Gordon's crimes.  

HJ was saying that it wouldn't be good PR to release a new product with Scott on it now.  

Back in 1996, Tony Iommi and Glenn Hughes recorded an album with Dave Holland on drums.  It was never released.  A few years later, Holland was busted for pedophilia.  When Iommi and Hughes finally released the album in 2004, they had Holland's drum tracks removed.  

But Holland's older work with Trapeze and Judas Priest was never changed.  
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« Reply #196 on: May 09, 2016, 09:05:49 AM »

Thoughts and good vibes to the victim first of all. 


The most important factor in all this, totally agree! 
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« Reply #197 on: May 09, 2016, 09:18:24 AM »

HJ was saying that it would be good PR to release a new product with Scott on it now.  


I don't know if a typo is involved or what, but I definitely *didn't* say that. I don't think anyone thinks anything to do with Bennett is good PR.

I was only commenting on the likelihood that due to what they might feel is appropriate (in addition to avoiding bad PR), it would be *less* likely to see future releases that showcase Bennett, and one area where this would come up would be past live stuff (any studio stuff kicking around that Bennett plays or sings on can easily have his parts replaced; while I would guess any co-writes in the vault would be unlikely to be released.)

As others have pointed out regarding *existing* projects/releases that involve someone who committed heinous crimes (e.g. the myriad of sessions involving Jim Gordon), those usually aren't removed from the marketplace. Even when the main artist in question committed the crime (as opposed to a backing musician, collaborator, etc.), the stuff is not literally completely pulled from the marketplace.

Ultimately, whether a BW fan can still pull out "That Lucky Old Sun" (or whatever) and still enjoy it is a question each fan will have to address for themselves. As I've said, the plight of the "fans" is nothing compared to the actual victims of the crime. But it undoubtedly makes being a fan nothing but at least a little more conflicted and confusing.
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« Reply #198 on: May 09, 2016, 09:25:43 AM »

Don't think they can't digitally remove Scott from video footage. Heck, for the Brian Wilson On Tour documentary, both Joe Thomas and Steve Dahl were digitally erased. Not that there were frames of them edited out -- they were actually literally erased FROM the frames.
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« Reply #199 on: May 09, 2016, 09:25:56 AM »

HJ was saying that it would be good PR to release a new product with Scott on it now.  


I don't know if a typo is involved or what, but I definitely *didn't* say that. I don't think anyone thinks anything to do with Bennett is good PR.

I was only commenting on the likelihood that due to what they might feel is appropriate (in addition to avoiding bad PR), it would be *less* likely to see future releases that showcase Bennett, and one area where this would come up would be past live stuff (any studio stuff kicking around that Bennett plays or sings on can easily have his parts replaced; while I would guess any co-writes in the vault would be unlikely to be released.)

As others have pointed out regarding *existing* projects/releases that involve someone who committed heinous crimes (e.g. the myriad of sessions involving Jim Gordon), those usually aren't removed from the marketplace. Even when the main artist in question committed the crime (as opposed to a backing musician, collaborator, etc.), the stuff is not literally completely pulled from the marketplace.

Ultimately, whether a BW fan can still pull out "That Lucky Old Sun" (or whatever) and still enjoy it is a question each fan will have to address for themselves. As I've said, the plight of the "fans" is nothing compared to the actual victims of the crime. But it undoubtedly makes being a fan nothing but at least a little more conflicted and confusing.

HJ,

I'm sorry, that was a typo.  I edited my post to say "wouldn't be good PR to release a new product with Scott."

My apologies.  

I'm not sure how anyone else feels, but when it comes to entertainment (music, movies, etc), I'm usually able to still enjoy the works of somebody who crosses that line.  I guess I can add Scott Bennett to the list that includes Phil Spector, Dave Holland, Vince Neil, among others.  
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