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Author Topic: Brian's Book released October 11th  (Read 51689 times)
Lonely Summer
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« Reply #225 on: April 08, 2016, 11:05:14 PM »

... Because I can't believe Carl would have made this move if he had any inkling Landy was going to have total control over Brian forever, and never willingly let go.

Sorry to keep quoting you in this thread, Lonely Summer. The last time I did it in this thread I thought there was a posse out for my head. I'm not singling your quote out, I just want to ask a question and make a point regarding it.

I never understood the train of thought that "Landy was never going away" or "so-and-so saved Brian from Landy" or "they couldn't get Brian away from Landy". I don't understand why Carl, or a member of Brian's immediate family, couldn't at any time terminate Landy's services.

When you contract a psychologist or psychiatrist or any medical professional for treatment, yes, there are certain terms. You sometimes agree to potential treatments (i.e one-on-one therapy, group therapy, drug therapy, special diets, special living conditions, etc.), you sometimes agree to one or a number of different doctors (in the same facility/practice), and you obviously agree to the fees. The one thing that is usually not a part of the contract or agreement is the term of the services. Yes, the doctor might recommend a preferred length of time for the treatment to be effective, but these terms are usually weeks, maybe months, certainly not years. Nobody is going to agree or lock into that amount of time, and I don't know if it's legal anyway. Does anybody know if Brian Wilson entered into a medical contract with Eugene Landy - for so many years?

So, why did Carl wait so long before he "rescued" or "saved" Brian from Landy? Well, there might be two reasons. First, look at Brian's life. Maybe Carl looked at Brain's physical health and saw that he was in the best physical shape of his adult life. Maybe he looked at Brian's lifestyle; Brian was off drugs, he was was well-groomed, well-dressed, got his driver's license back and was driving from place to place, had a nice house, was eating healthy meals, was actually going places, visiting places that were broadening his horizons, and had friends (if you want to call the staff who hung out with him friends). Maybe Carl looked at Brian's musical output - one critically acclaimed solo album, another "in-the-can", contributing to Beach Boys' albums, and being present for almost all of The Beach Boys' TV appearances including videos.

Or, second, maybe Carl looked at the alternatives to Landy and everything mentioned above. Sure, Carl could've initiated another search for a doctor who could "save" Brian. Or, maybe Carl thought the alternative was having Brian declared incompetent which meant a conservatorship. And, then there's the least desirable alternative...institutionalization. When Carl looked at those alternatives, maybe he thought the Landy 24 hour therapy - with all its negatives - was the lesser of the three evils.

For the first 6-7 years, the major complaints about Landy's treatment were issues like Brian not accepting or returning phone calls, Brian not spending time with his family, Brian not "liking" the Beach Boys, Landy's staff shadowing Brian, and Brian saying things about Landy like calling him his manager, co-songwriter, and producer. I don't know when the issue of over-medicating became a concern. Obviously they knew Brian was on "something", but did they know about the potential side effects or why the drugs were being prescribed (illegally) in the first place?

So my question is, why didn't Carl intervene in 1983, 1984, 1985, 1986, 1986, 1987, 1988, 1989, or whenever? He didn't need Brian's permission or cooperation. If Brian objected and refused to stop seeing Landy, Carl could've petitioned the court at any time, and, in my opinion, he would've won. I believe Carl could've presented enough evidence, with witnesses, to find Brian not able to care for himself. Hell, Carl's best witness would've been Dr. Landy himself. If Landy says that Brian needed his 24 hour therapy program, Landy is making Carl's case for him. If Landy says that Brian, because of Landy's successful treatment, is perfectly able to function in society without him, then fine, it's no longer necessary for Landy to treat Brian. Oh, it might've gotten ugly, and it definitely would've been painful, but it would've ended the relationship with Landy.

But Carl didn't do that. He didn't intervene. But he could've have. At any time. Again, I'm not casting blame, just discussing.

As far as Brian's will and Landy illegally involving himself in the changing of the will; of course that's important and despicable. But, the issue of the will alone, the legal evidence it provided, and the "gotcha" Landy aspect, wasn't necessary for Carl or anyone to "save" Brian. Carl DIDN'T NEED the will evidence to terminate Landy. As I mentioned above, Carl and family could've gotten Brian away from Landy in the previous 8-9 years, based on Brian's condition, other alternative treatments, and the fact that there was no term (months, years) for the treatment. What the will issue ultimately did was provide a way to prosecute Landy. Now, LEGALLY Landy could not treat Brian, almost like a restraining order. It also aided in the prosecuting of Landy for other illegalities which forced him to surrender his license, and I believe there was a also a financial settlement (I stand to be corrected on that).  
if I'm not mistaken, action against Landy began in 1988. The investigation took awhile, but Landy sure didn't do himself any favors in the intervening years, having his name all over Brian's album as executive producer and songwriter. I guess he convinced himself he really had some musical talent, and that his was the vision Brian needed for his new music. And it's true that the guys didn't hang out a lot in those years; there's one clip on the Endless Summer tv series where some young band is asking the BB's how they've stayed together so many years, and Brian, being Brian, utters the absolute truth: "Don't hang out together!" There were a lot of outward signs that Brian was getting better - first of all, he looked great! He was the only one in the group that looked like he could've been a surfer! And he was writing and recording again; the "Brian is back" hype in 1976 turned out to be very premature; but in 1988, with the solo album, it really did feel like he was back from the dead, reborn.
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Sheriff John Stone
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« Reply #226 on: April 09, 2016, 04:29:38 AM »

Or, maybe Carl thought the alternative was having Brian declared incompetent which meant a conservatorship.
My understanding is that they did get a conservatorship and made Landy the conservator. They could have kept the conservatorship and hired Landy under 'normal' arrangements, but chose not to. So far, I've only come up with one interpretation of that choice. I'm happy to hear others.

It's my understanding that Landy was "employed", not appointed. Isn't a conservator appointed by a judge after a hearing has been conducted? Again, I'm asking questions, I don't know the answers.
I've read a lot of articles that refer to him as Wilson's 'legal guardian.' I never checked the sources, so maybe that's a myth. It's also my understanding that Marilyn had, previously, a blanket POA. I'd assumed the 'legal guardianship' was established by that route. Wilson has said that Landy made threats to 'put him on the funny farm' if he wasn't compliant, so I took that as evidence that Landy had legal leverage.
If anyone has full knowledge of Landy's legal status, that would be good to know.
Perhaps the book will tell us.

I don't know what Landy's official status was, but you raise another issue I failed to mention in my original post - the POA. In 1976, Landy was hired and...fired. Fired! So, how was that done? The reason for Landy's services being terminated in 1976 was exorbitant fees. First, the Beach Boys withheld their contribution to Landy's fees. And, Marilyn Wilson, who I am assuming controlled the Wilson checkbook, stopped paying Brian's/their portion of the bill. And, Landy's gone.

Why couldn't they "fire" Landy the second time around? I believe Landy was re-hired in 1982 by The Beach Boys' manager, Tom Hulett. Then, why couldn't the manager or attorney representing The Beach Boys from 1983 through 1990, at any time, draft a letter to Dr. Landy, in effect saying, "Thank you for your treatment of Brian Wilson, however, your services are no longer needed. Please cease all services immediately." This, of course, would be followed by the Beach Boys withholding their payment to Landy's fees. But who was the Power Of Attorney on Brian's checking account? Couldn't the manager or attorney also draft a letter to Brian's Power Of Attorney - whomever he/she was - directing THEM to stop paying Landy's bills? Wouldn't the result be the same as 1976? Landy would, in effect, be fired.
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« Reply #227 on: April 09, 2016, 04:47:40 AM »

... Because I can't believe Carl would have made this move if he had any inkling Landy was going to have total control over Brian forever, and never willingly let go.

Sorry to keep quoting you in this thread, Lonely Summer. The last time I did it in this thread I thought there was a posse out for my head. I'm not singling your quote out, I just want to ask a question and make a point regarding it.

I never understood the train of thought that "Landy was never going away" or "so-and-so saved Brian from Landy" or "they couldn't get Brian away from Landy". I don't understand why Carl, or a member of Brian's immediate family, couldn't at any time terminate Landy's services.

When you contract a psychologist or psychiatrist or any medical professional for treatment, yes, there are certain terms. You sometimes agree to potential treatments (i.e one-on-one therapy, group therapy, drug therapy, special diets, special living conditions, etc.), you sometimes agree to one or a number of different doctors (in the same facility/practice), and you obviously agree to the fees. The one thing that is usually not a part of the contract or agreement is the term of the services. Yes, the doctor might recommend a preferred length of time for the treatment to be effective, but these terms are usually weeks, maybe months, certainly not years. Nobody is going to agree or lock into that amount of time, and I don't know if it's legal anyway. Does anybody know if Brian Wilson entered into a medical contract with Eugene Landy - for so many years?

So, why did Carl wait so long before he "rescued" or "saved" Brian from Landy? Well, there might be two reasons. First, look at Brian's life. Maybe Carl looked at Brain's physical health and saw that he was in the best physical shape of his adult life. Maybe he looked at Brian's lifestyle; Brian was off drugs, he was was well-groomed, well-dressed, got his driver's license back and was driving from place to place, had a nice house, was eating healthy meals, was actually going places, visiting places that were broadening his horizons, and had friends (if you want to call the staff who hung out with him friends). Maybe Carl looked at Brian's musical output - one critically acclaimed solo album, another "in-the-can", contributing to Beach Boys' albums, and being present for almost all of The Beach Boys' TV appearances including videos.

Or, second, maybe Carl looked at the alternatives to Landy and everything mentioned above. Sure, Carl could've initiated another search for a doctor who could "save" Brian. Or, maybe Carl thought the alternative was having Brian declared incompetent which meant a conservatorship. And, then there's the least desirable alternative...institutionalization. When Carl looked at those alternatives, maybe he thought the Landy 24 hour therapy - with all its negatives - was the lesser of the three evils.

For the first 6-7 years, the major complaints about Landy's treatment were issues like Brian not accepting or returning phone calls, Brian not spending time with his family, Brian not "liking" the Beach Boys, Landy's staff shadowing Brian, and Brian saying things about Landy like calling him his manager, co-songwriter, and producer. I don't know when the issue of over-medicating became a concern. Obviously they knew Brian was on "something", but did they know about the potential side effects or why the drugs were being prescribed (illegally) in the first place?

So my question is, why didn't Carl intervene in 1983, 1984, 1985, 1986, 1986, 1987, 1988, 1989, or whenever? He didn't need Brian's permission or cooperation. If Brian objected and refused to stop seeing Landy, Carl could've petitioned the court at any time, and, in my opinion, he would've won. I believe Carl could've presented enough evidence, with witnesses, to find Brian not able to care for himself. Hell, Carl's best witness would've been Dr. Landy himself. If Landy says that Brian needed his 24 hour therapy program, Landy is making Carl's case for him. If Landy says that Brian, because of Landy's successful treatment, is perfectly able to function in society without him, then fine, it's no longer necessary for Landy to treat Brian. Oh, it might've gotten ugly, and it definitely would've been painful, but it would've ended the relationship with Landy.

But Carl didn't do that. He didn't intervene. But he could've have. At any time. Again, I'm not casting blame, just discussing.

As far as Brian's will and Landy illegally involving himself in the changing of the will; of course that's important and despicable. But, the issue of the will alone, the legal evidence it provided, and the "gotcha" Landy aspect, wasn't necessary for Carl or anyone to "save" Brian. Carl DIDN'T NEED the will evidence to terminate Landy. As I mentioned above, Carl and family could've gotten Brian away from Landy in the previous 8-9 years, based on Brian's condition, other alternative treatments, and the fact that there was no term (months, years) for the treatment. What the will issue ultimately did was provide a way to prosecute Landy. Now, LEGALLY Landy could not treat Brian, almost like a restraining order. It also aided in the prosecuting of Landy for other illegalities which forced him to surrender his license, and I believe there was a also a financial settlement (I stand to be corrected on that).  
if I'm not mistaken, action against Landy began in 1988. The investigation took awhile, but Landy sure didn't do himself any favors in the intervening years, having his name all over Brian's album as executive producer and songwriter. I guess he convinced himself he really had some musical talent, and that his was the vision Brian needed for his new music. And it's true that the guys didn't hang out a lot in those years; there's one clip on the Endless Summer tv series where some young band is asking the BB's how they've stayed together so many years, and Brian, being Brian, utters the absolute truth: "Don't hang out together!" There were a lot of outward signs that Brian was getting better - first of all, he looked great! He was the only one in the group that looked like he could've been a surfer! And he was writing and recording again; the "Brian is back" hype in 1976 turned out to be very premature; but in 1988, with the solo album, it really did feel like he was back from the dead, reborn.

So, your theory - and I'm not disagreeing - is that The Beach Boys, Carl, Brian's family, DIDN'T think that Brian needed to be "saved" or "freed"; that Brian was actually doing well, or at least much better. Maybe they thought that despite their hardships (not being able to see or talk with Brian when they wanted, etc.), they would "hang in there" with Landy? I don't discount that theory at all.   
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« Reply #228 on: April 09, 2016, 06:35:17 AM »

Maybe after seeing how Brian went downhill after the first sacking of Landy, the boys weren't sure if removing Landy would again be fatal. And their relationship was probably not close enough to see Landy's wrongs.

I'm not sure BTW that a "normal" psychologist could have saved Brian. IMHO it took a ruthless kidnapper to save Brian from himself. It's like a leukemia cure, first you have to remove the old immune system with aggressive chemicals, but then you need to stop the chemicals because they'd kill you, and then you need a bone marrow donation. In this analogy Melinda would be the bone marrow donation.
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« Reply #229 on: April 09, 2016, 08:39:13 AM »

Or, maybe Carl thought the alternative was having Brian declared incompetent which meant a conservatorship.
My understanding is that they did get a conservatorship and made Landy the conservator. They could have kept the conservatorship and hired Landy under 'normal' arrangements, but chose not to. So far, I've only come up with one interpretation of that choice. I'm happy to hear others.

It's my understanding that Landy was "employed", not appointed. Isn't a conservator appointed by a judge after a hearing has been conducted? Again, I'm asking questions, I don't know the answers.
I've read a lot of articles that refer to him as Wilson's 'legal guardian.' I never checked the sources, so maybe that's a myth. It's also my understanding that Marilyn had, previously, a blanket POA. I'd assumed the 'legal guardianship' was established by that route. Wilson has said that Landy made threats to 'put him on the funny farm' if he wasn't compliant, so I took that as evidence that Landy had legal leverage.
If anyone has full knowledge of Landy's legal status, that would be good to know.
Perhaps the book will tell us.

I don't know what Landy's official status was, but you raise another issue I failed to mention in my original post - the POA. In 1976, Landy was hired and...fired. Fired! So, how was that done? The reason for Landy's services being terminated in 1976 was exorbitant fees. First, the Beach Boys withheld their contribution to Landy's fees. And, Marilyn Wilson, who I am assuming controlled the Wilson checkbook, stopped paying Brian's/their portion of the bill. And, Landy's gone.

Why couldn't they "fire" Landy the second time around? I believe Landy was re-hired in 1982 by The Beach Boys' manager, Tom Hulett. Then, why couldn't the manager or attorney representing The Beach Boys from 1983 through 1990, at any time, draft a letter to Dr. Landy, in effect saying, "Thank you for your treatment of Brian Wilson, however, your services are no longer needed. Please cease all services immediately." This, of course, would be followed by the Beach Boys withholding their payment to Landy's fees. But who was the Power Of Attorney on Brian's checking account? Couldn't the manager or attorney also draft a letter to Brian's Power Of Attorney - whomever he/she was - directing THEM to stop paying Landy's bills? Wouldn't the result be the same as 1976? Landy would, in effect, be fired.
Again, this points to him having legal control.
In Love and Mercy Wilson/Cusack calls him his 'legal guardian'. They could fire him in the '70s because Marilyn had legal control and the evidence indicates they gave that over to Landy.
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« Reply #230 on: April 09, 2016, 09:10:48 AM »

Maybe after seeing how Brian went downhill after the first sacking of Landy, the boys weren't sure if removing Landy would again be fatal. And their relationship was probably not close enough to see Landy's wrongs.

I'm not sure BTW that a "normal" psychologist could have saved Brian. IMHO it took a ruthless kidnapper to save Brian from himself. It's like a leukemia cure, first you have to remove the old immune system with aggressive chemicals, but then you need to stop the chemicals because they'd kill you, and then you need a bone marrow donation. In this analogy Melinda would be the bone marrow donation.
People say 'Brian appeared so healthy; they must have thought he was fine" so frequently. But I'm sorry, it's kind of transparently ridiculous. Lots of journalists in the 70s and 80s 'saw Landy's wrongs'. I saw them and I was a teenager living in New Jersey with no super powers. How would his family not see it? It reads to me like the most desperate sort of justification.
I'm frequently surprised that people on this board still act like he's some mythological uber-madman. He was a guy with mental health problems and consequent substance abuse problems who had been treated like sh*t by his dad when he was a kid, and by almost everyone he knew in the 70s. The people he should have been able to rely on for help reacted to his problems by physically forcing him to do exactly what he didn't want; by ignoring his actual problem; by sometimes mocking it. I'm amazed how little empathy he seems to get from his fans for what he went through in the '70s. "Oh, he was so crazy!" How would you act if your family hired people to Landify or Rockify you when you wanted to take time off from your job for mental health reasons? And instead of getting you help for your issues, they hire someone to physically force you back to work, completely disregarding your actual issues? And of course they live off the income from your work so would you not think life is a 'cruel joke,' if you were being reported as a madman and 'oh your poor family' when they had actually managed to enslave you in front of the whole world? And the world is saying, "that Brian Wilson, I heard he's crazy." "No, it's druuuugs!" So he acted out in passive aggressive ways, because he did have mental health issues and couldn't manage his situation, and the people around him increased the force to get him to comply, so his passive aggressive acting out became more extreme. He's not some sort of almost incurable diseased maniac. He was a justifiably very angry guy who finds it almost impossible to express anger,  with mental health and substance problems.
I guess each of us have our pet BB fan peeve. Some it's the Mike Love hate. Some it's the Mike Love Love. me, it's the justifications for Brian Wilson to have been treated like he was by his family and Landy. There was no justification. Brian Wilson didn't need it. He didn't deserve it. He isn't unlike other humans and he didn't need special, illegal, brutal treatment.
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« Reply #231 on: April 09, 2016, 09:38:50 AM »

Maybe after seeing how Brian went downhill after the first sacking of Landy, the boys weren't sure if removing Landy would again be fatal. And their relationship was probably not close enough to see Landy's wrongs.

I'm not sure BTW that a "normal" psychologist could have saved Brian. IMHO it took a ruthless kidnapper to save Brian from himself. It's like a leukemia cure, first you have to remove the old immune system with aggressive chemicals, but then you need to stop the chemicals because they'd kill you, and then you need a bone marrow donation. In this analogy Melinda would be the bone marrow donation.
People say 'Brian appeared so healthy; they must have thought he was fine" so frequently. But I'm sorry, it's kind of transparently ridiculous. Lots of journalists in the 70s and 80s 'saw Landy's wrongs'. I saw them and I was a teenager living in New Jersey with no super powers. How would his family not see it? It reads to me like the most desperate sort of justification.
I'm frequently surprised that people on this board still act like he's some mythological uber-madman. He was a guy with mental health problems and consequent substance abuse problems who had been treated like sh*t by his dad when he was a kid, and by almost everyone he knew in the 70s. The people he should have been able to rely on for help reacted to his problems by physically forcing him to do exactly what he didn't want; by ignoring his actual problem; by sometimes mocking it. I'm amazed how little empathy he seems to get from his fans for what he went through in the '70s. "Oh, he was so crazy!" How would you act if your family hired people to Landify or Rockify you when you wanted to take time off from your job for mental health reasons? And instead of getting you help for your issues, they hire someone to physically force you back to work, completely disregarding your actual issues? And of course they live off the income from your work so would you not think life is a 'cruel joke,' if you were being reported as a madman and 'oh your poor family' when they had actually managed to enslave you in front of the whole world? And the world is saying, "that Brian Wilson, I heard he's crazy." "No, it's druuuugs!" So he acted out in passive aggressive ways, because he did have mental health issues and couldn't manage his situation, and the people around him increased the force to get him to comply, so his passive aggressive acting out became more extreme. He's not some sort of almost incurable diseased maniac. He was a justifiably very angry guy who finds it almost impossible to express anger,  with mental health and substance problems.
I guess each of us have our pet BB fan peeve. Some it's the Mike Love hate. Some it's the Mike Love Love. me, it's the justifications for Brian Wilson to have been treated like he was by his family and Landy. There was no justification. Brian Wilson didn't need it. He didn't deserve it. He isn't unlike other humans and he didn't need special, illegal, brutal treatment.

Truer words were never spoken.

As far why it was allowed to happen? Maybe it was easier for the family to do what they did rather than actually admit and address the problem. But easy sometimes is counterproductive.
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« Reply #232 on: April 09, 2016, 09:41:14 AM »

Or, maybe Carl thought the alternative was having Brian declared incompetent which meant a conservatorship.
My understanding is that they did get a conservatorship and made Landy the conservator. They could have kept the conservatorship and hired Landy under 'normal' arrangements, but chose not to. So far, I've only come up with one interpretation of that choice. I'm happy to hear others.

It's my understanding that Landy was "employed", not appointed. Isn't a conservator appointed by a judge after a hearing has been conducted? Again, I'm asking questions, I don't know the answers.
I've read a lot of articles that refer to him as Wilson's 'legal guardian.' I never checked the sources, so maybe that's a myth. It's also my understanding that Marilyn had, previously, a blanket POA. I'd assumed the 'legal guardianship' was established by that route. Wilson has said that Landy made threats to 'put him on the funny farm' if he wasn't compliant, so I took that as evidence that Landy had legal leverage.
If anyone has full knowledge of Landy's legal status, that would be good to know.
Perhaps the book will tell us.

I don't know what Landy's official status was, but you raise another issue I failed to mention in my original post - the POA. In 1976, Landy was hired and...fired. Fired! So, how was that done? The reason for Landy's services being terminated in 1976 was exorbitant fees. First, the Beach Boys withheld their contribution to Landy's fees. And, Marilyn Wilson, who I am assuming controlled the Wilson checkbook, stopped paying Brian's/their portion of the bill. And, Landy's gone.

Why couldn't they "fire" Landy the second time around? I believe Landy was re-hired in 1982 by The Beach Boys' manager, Tom Hulett. Then, why couldn't the manager or attorney representing The Beach Boys from 1983 through 1990, at any time, draft a letter to Dr. Landy, in effect saying, "Thank you for your treatment of Brian Wilson, however, your services are no longer needed. Please cease all services immediately." This, of course, would be followed by the Beach Boys withholding their payment to Landy's fees. But who was the Power Of Attorney on Brian's checking account? Couldn't the manager or attorney also draft a letter to Brian's Power Of Attorney - whomever he/she was - directing THEM to stop paying Landy's bills? Wouldn't the result be the same as 1976? Landy would, in effect, be fired.
Again, this points to him having legal control.
In Love and Mercy Wilson/Cusack calls him his 'legal guardian'. They could fire him in the '70s because Marilyn had legal control and the evidence indicates they gave that over to Landy.

As I posted above, I don't KNOW what Landy's official status was, but I THINK it was simply...doctor. Landy was hired, whereas a Legal Guardian is usually appointed by a court. However, if those duties are abused, the guardianship can be revoked. Perhaps what was said in the movie was fiction.  
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« Reply #233 on: April 09, 2016, 09:45:39 AM »

Once again Emily talks more sense than everyone else on the board combined. All sorts of excuses can be made for what happened, but from about 1976 through to Landy finally being gone -- more than half his adult life by the time it ended -- Brian was in a hellish situation, not of his own making, and *no-one* seemed to be acting in his interests.
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« Reply #234 on: April 09, 2016, 09:45:50 AM »

Let's not forget that Carl was involved in a real balancing act.  He was obviously worried about Brian and his teetering on the brink of 'exactly what?'.  Along the path he also had to look out for Dennis while those issues manifested and that meant protecting him from others who for a variety of reasons were trying to do Dennis harm.  He had to serve as the creative focal point for any possible recording projects and he had to act as the on stage general...which meant making sure that certain voices were properly 'shadowed' and that the 'orchestra' was ready for action.  He also, along the way, had his own personal issues, family problems and privacy to maintain and uphold.  It all fell on Carl's shoulders as a one armed paper hanger in a wind storm...and then there was the Mike factor impacting negatively ad infinitum.

So if Carl didn't get the Brian/Landy thing part 2 entirely right it wasn't because he didn't give a sh*t.  He just didn't have a 4 deck plate.
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« Reply #235 on: April 09, 2016, 09:59:20 AM »

Maybe after seeing how Brian went downhill after the first sacking of Landy, the boys weren't sure if removing Landy would again be fatal. And their relationship was probably not close enough to see Landy's wrongs.

I guess each of us have our pet BB fan peeve. Some it's the Mike Love hate. Some it's the Mike Love Love. me, it's the justifications for Brian Wilson to have been treated like he was by his family and Landy. There was no justification. Brian Wilson didn't need it. He didn't deserve it. He isn't unlike other humans and he didn't need special, illegal, brutal treatment.

What I wrote was NOT a justification, I strongly reject that notion. Strongly! I never said Brian deserved that kind of hellish treatment or that his family acted right. I just tried to put myself in their shoes, and if you read back, you will see that I added words like "probably" and "maybe" to my words, as I wasn't there and don't know what their situations were. What I do not believe is that the other band members did not care at all about Brian thinking "let him croak in that quack's claws".
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« Reply #236 on: April 09, 2016, 10:05:57 AM »

Let's not forget that Carl was involved in a real balancing act.  He was obviously worried about Brian and his teetering on the brink of 'exactly what?'.  Along the path he also had to look out for Dennis while those issues manifested and that meant protecting him from others who for a variety of reasons were trying to do Dennis harm.  He had to serve as the creative focal point for any possible recording projects and he had to act as the on stage general...which meant making sure that certain voices were properly 'shadowed' and that the 'orchestra' was ready for action.  He also, along the way, had his own personal issues, family problems and privacy to maintain and uphold.  It all fell on Carl's shoulders as a one armed paper hanger in a wind storm...and then there was the Mike factor impacting negatively ad infinitum.

So if Carl didn't get the Brian/Landy thing part 2 entirely right it wasn't because he didn't give a sh*t.  He just didn't have a 4 deck plate.
I agree; but empathy for Carl's very difficult situation, and his own psychological issues, does not have to include justifications for the Landy thing. Carl seems to have made a huge mistake and to have sort of buried his head in the sand about it for a while. But given what you said above, and his personal issues, I can empathize with that as well. We've all screwed up and most of us, including me, egregiously, have had times when we looked away from our loves one's issues because we were so focused on our own; that happens.
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« Reply #237 on: April 09, 2016, 10:09:15 AM »

Maybe after seeing how Brian went downhill after the first sacking of Landy, the boys weren't sure if removing Landy would again be fatal. And their relationship was probably not close enough to see Landy's wrongs.

I guess each of us have our pet BB fan peeve. Some it's the Mike Love hate. Some it's the Mike Love Love. me, it's the justifications for Brian Wilson to have been treated like he was by his family and Landy. There was no justification. Brian Wilson didn't need it. He didn't deserve it. He isn't unlike other humans and he didn't need special, illegal, brutal treatment.

What I wrote was NOT a justification, I strongly reject that notion. Strongly! I never said Brian deserved that kind of hellish treatment or that his family acted right. I just tried to put myself in their shoes, and if you read back, you will see that I added words like "probably" and "maybe" to my words, as I wasn't there and don't know what their situations were. What I do not believe is that the other band members did not care at all about Brian thinking "let him croak in that quack's claws".
Sorry Micha, your post was the pin that broke my back, or the last straw or something. That was not a reaction simply to your post but to a whole culture of justification that I feel like I've been banging my head against for ages. Your post in itself was very mild but it just opened the floodgates. All these metaphors!
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« Reply #238 on: April 09, 2016, 10:10:55 AM »

Just to reiterate, I am not blaming anyone, nor am I taking the other side and making excuses. My point is specifically that I don't get the positions of "saving Brian" or "freeing Brian" or "rescuing Brian from the clutches" or "Landy wouldn't leave" or "what could be done?". I don't think those terms are accurate. Once they (Brian's family) saw any reason to get rid of Landy, all they had to do was stop paying the bills and start legal proceedings, and I am pretty sure they would've succeeded. Yes, the mental health community was different thirty years ago, but the abuse of individuals with mental illness was taken seriously by the courts.  
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« Reply #239 on: April 09, 2016, 10:15:22 AM »

I wouldn't say that Carl's head was EVER buried in the sand...but rather in way too many HEAVY DUTY responsibilities...all of which were being sabotaged by others with a GREEDY and/or subsequently dangerous agenda...and I don't just mean Landy.  Landy also had his 'rules'.  That they had been so SEVERELY altered was the real problem.  It wasn't so much anyone's head in the sand as it was a 'doctor' with HIS head buried up his ass.

Carl loved Brian [and Dennis] and he stood steadfast trying to protect the family blueprint for the Beach Boys...albeit...sadly...alone.
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« Reply #240 on: April 09, 2016, 03:12:09 PM »

Let's not forget that Carl was involved in a real balancing act.  He was obviously worried about Brian and his teetering on the brink of 'exactly what?'.  Along the path he also had to look out for Dennis while those issues manifested and that meant protecting him from others who for a variety of reasons were trying to do Dennis harm.  He had to serve as the creative focal point for any possible recording projects and he had to act as the on stage general...which meant making sure that certain voices were properly 'shadowed' and that the 'orchestra' was ready for action.  He also, along the way, had his own personal issues, family problems and privacy to maintain and uphold.  It all fell on Carl's shoulders as a one armed paper hanger in a wind storm...and then there was the Mike factor impacting negatively ad infinitum.

So if Carl didn't get the Brian/Landy thing part 2 entirely right it wasn't because he didn't give a sh*t.  He just didn't have a 4 deck plate.
EXACTLY! Nice to see that at least one person gets it. I don't know who exactly people are talking about when they say Brian was treated badly by his family (other than his father). I don't believe Brian was treated badly by his brothers, his mother, or his first wife. Could they have done more than they did? Possibly, but I doubt that any of them truly understand what was 'wrong' with Brian. And they all had their own issues to deal with. I think they did the best they could, the best they knew how to do.
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« Reply #241 on: April 09, 2016, 03:17:26 PM »

... Because I can't believe Carl would have made this move if he had any inkling Landy was going to have total control over Brian forever, and never willingly let go.

Sorry to keep quoting you in this thread, Lonely Summer. The last time I did it in this thread I thought there was a posse out for my head. I'm not singling your quote out, I just want to ask a question and make a point regarding it.

I never understood the train of thought that "Landy was never going away" or "so-and-so saved Brian from Landy" or "they couldn't get Brian away from Landy". I don't understand why Carl, or a member of Brian's immediate family, couldn't at any time terminate Landy's services.

When you contract a psychologist or psychiatrist or any medical professional for treatment, yes, there are certain terms. You sometimes agree to potential treatments (i.e one-on-one therapy, group therapy, drug therapy, special diets, special living conditions, etc.), you sometimes agree to one or a number of different doctors (in the same facility/practice), and you obviously agree to the fees. The one thing that is usually not a part of the contract or agreement is the term of the services. Yes, the doctor might recommend a preferred length of time for the treatment to be effective, but these terms are usually weeks, maybe months, certainly not years. Nobody is going to agree or lock into that amount of time, and I don't know if it's legal anyway. Does anybody know if Brian Wilson entered into a medical contract with Eugene Landy - for so many years?

So, why did Carl wait so long before he "rescued" or "saved" Brian from Landy? Well, there might be two reasons. First, look at Brian's life. Maybe Carl looked at Brain's physical health and saw that he was in the best physical shape of his adult life. Maybe he looked at Brian's lifestyle; Brian was off drugs, he was was well-groomed, well-dressed, got his driver's license back and was driving from place to place, had a nice house, was eating healthy meals, was actually going places, visiting places that were broadening his horizons, and had friends (if you want to call the staff who hung out with him friends). Maybe Carl looked at Brian's musical output - one critically acclaimed solo album, another "in-the-can", contributing to Beach Boys' albums, and being present for almost all of The Beach Boys' TV appearances including videos.

Or, second, maybe Carl looked at the alternatives to Landy and everything mentioned above. Sure, Carl could've initiated another search for a doctor who could "save" Brian. Or, maybe Carl thought the alternative was having Brian declared incompetent which meant a conservatorship. And, then there's the least desirable alternative...institutionalization. When Carl looked at those alternatives, maybe he thought the Landy 24 hour therapy - with all its negatives - was the lesser of the three evils.

For the first 6-7 years, the major complaints about Landy's treatment were issues like Brian not accepting or returning phone calls, Brian not spending time with his family, Brian not "liking" the Beach Boys, Landy's staff shadowing Brian, and Brian saying things about Landy like calling him his manager, co-songwriter, and producer. I don't know when the issue of over-medicating became a concern. Obviously they knew Brian was on "something", but did they know about the potential side effects or why the drugs were being prescribed (illegally) in the first place?

So my question is, why didn't Carl intervene in 1983, 1984, 1985, 1986, 1986, 1987, 1988, 1989, or whenever? He didn't need Brian's permission or cooperation. If Brian objected and refused to stop seeing Landy, Carl could've petitioned the court at any time, and, in my opinion, he would've won. I believe Carl could've presented enough evidence, with witnesses, to find Brian not able to care for himself. Hell, Carl's best witness would've been Dr. Landy himself. If Landy says that Brian needed his 24 hour therapy program, Landy is making Carl's case for him. If Landy says that Brian, because of Landy's successful treatment, is perfectly able to function in society without him, then fine, it's no longer necessary for Landy to treat Brian. Oh, it might've gotten ugly, and it definitely would've been painful, but it would've ended the relationship with Landy.

But Carl didn't do that. He didn't intervene. But he could've have. At any time. Again, I'm not casting blame, just discussing.

As far as Brian's will and Landy illegally involving himself in the changing of the will; of course that's important and despicable. But, the issue of the will alone, the legal evidence it provided, and the "gotcha" Landy aspect, wasn't necessary for Carl or anyone to "save" Brian. Carl DIDN'T NEED the will evidence to terminate Landy. As I mentioned above, Carl and family could've gotten Brian away from Landy in the previous 8-9 years, based on Brian's condition, other alternative treatments, and the fact that there was no term (months, years) for the treatment. What the will issue ultimately did was provide a way to prosecute Landy. Now, LEGALLY Landy could not treat Brian, almost like a restraining order. It also aided in the prosecuting of Landy for other illegalities which forced him to surrender his license, and I believe there was a also a financial settlement (I stand to be corrected on that).  
if I'm not mistaken, action against Landy began in 1988. The investigation took awhile, but Landy sure didn't do himself any favors in the intervening years, having his name all over Brian's album as executive producer and songwriter. I guess he convinced himself he really had some musical talent, and that his was the vision Brian needed for his new music. And it's true that the guys didn't hang out a lot in those years; there's one clip on the Endless Summer tv series where some young band is asking the BB's how they've stayed together so many years, and Brian, being Brian, utters the absolute truth: "Don't hang out together!" There were a lot of outward signs that Brian was getting better - first of all, he looked great! He was the only one in the group that looked like he could've been a surfer! And he was writing and recording again; the "Brian is back" hype in 1976 turned out to be very premature; but in 1988, with the solo album, it really did feel like he was back from the dead, reborn.

So, your theory - and I'm not disagreeing - is that The Beach Boys, Carl, Brian's family, DIDN'T think that Brian needed to be "saved" or "freed"; that Brian was actually doing well, or at least much better. Maybe they thought that despite their hardships (not being able to see or talk with Brian when they wanted, etc.), they would "hang in there" with Landy? I don't discount that theory at all.   
I think for the first few years, roughly 1983-86, they did believe Brian was getting better. After that, it became increasingly obvious that Landy was NEVER going to leave Brian, that he was going to sink his claws in even deeper with every passing year, being his songwriting partner, co-producer, ...was there any part of Brian's life that Landy did NOT have total control over by 1990? And in his own autobio, 'Brian' worries about what will happen if they are separated. Will he continue to be productive and drug free, or will he backslide into his old ways? Was he truly cured or not?
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« Reply #242 on: April 09, 2016, 03:42:55 PM »

Is anyone justifying Landy or just opining that as crap and criminal as he and his methods were, they can appear to have gotten a low bar result (ie. Brian didn't die). A stopped clock kind of thing kind of maybe.

Just as I believe people ought to lay off Melinda, I believe we ought to lay off the family. We don't know what they have had to deal with and we haven't walked that mile in their shoes.
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« Reply #243 on: April 09, 2016, 04:47:51 PM »

Sorry. I thought there was a general consensus that slavery's wrong. My mistake.
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« Reply #244 on: April 09, 2016, 04:51:27 PM »

Lock the thread now! LOL
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« Reply #245 on: April 09, 2016, 05:41:22 PM »

Sorry. I thought there was a general consensus that slavery's wrong. My mistake.

If this a  reply to me, I don't think I understand you or you didn't understand me.
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« Reply #246 on: April 09, 2016, 05:43:47 PM »

Lock the thread now! LOL

Tempted, but there are other things in the thread that are pending.

For now.
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« Reply #247 on: April 09, 2016, 05:52:29 PM »

Just my perspective on things: This is family and family gets messy sometimes, especially when you add business into the mix. Brian was not only the husband-brother-cousin-son, but was also the mastermind behind their band's success. Where Brian went, the Beach Boys went. And the Beach Boys had personal and financial responsibilities of their own, that were actually dependent on Brian. I would guess, in addition to the mounting stressors of mental illness and drug use, Brian just got tired of being considered a commodity and became even more difficult. So things got even messier, less supportive and less friendly.

Sure, Brian's health was important. Yes, his family loved him and missed the old Brian. But, they were all also dependent on him. Without Brian's hit-making name attached to a record contract, there was no contract, and without a contract there was no Beach Boys.

So, family, friends and business all get mushed into a big, desperate, personal and professional ball of "how to we get Brian back on track?

Enter Landy Phase One, which seemed to get the needed result: Husband, brother, son, and golden goose was improving and functional. Huzzah! But, then Landy gets greedy and out he goes. And, since Brian's issues were never really resolved, Brian eventually worsens.

Enter Landy Phase Two, and since Landy had not shown all of his cards yet, it's hard to fault the family for going with what worked before. But, this time things were a bit more drastic, since Landy was implementing his version of milieu therapy, which conveniently meant he'd be taking control of his patient's life in order to teach him how to cope and manage those stressors.

Apparently, for Brian, it took 9 years instead of the usual 18 months.  This is where, I think, maybe a few red flags should have been raised. But, Brian had lost weight. He was off the drugs. He said he was happy where he was. Maybe Carl and Audree actually loved him too much to rock the boat. He was alive, and that, in itself was something. The Beach Boys were having to find a way to make this dysfunctional family and band work without him, so if he liked it there, and he was still alive, it was surely much easier to just let it all go and move on.

It may have taken a while for the more disturbing aspects of Landy's relationship with Brian to surface: The improper use of medications, the personal and professional manipulation, the insinuation into all of his business dealings. And, by the time it did, it might of been hard to determine how much was by Brian's consent, and how much was through indirect (or direct) coercion. If Brian was consciously choosing to stay with Landy then they had no grounds to dismiss him, and dismissing him could potentially jeopardize Brian's continued mental health. If Brian wasn't mentally sound, they would have to prove, against Brian's protestations to the contrary, that he was being manipulated and was incapable of making the decision to stay.

It would seem that all took some time. Almost, too much time.


Of course, my perspective means nothing. I'll be interested in reading Brian's when the book comes out.



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Lonely Summer
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« Reply #248 on: April 09, 2016, 07:25:39 PM »

There was a good interview with Carl in Musician magazine, summer of 1983, where he was asked about recording with the group again, and he said something like "we could make a really good commercial record with another producer, but if you're talking Pet Sounds masterpiece quality, you're talking Brian with us. And yet I don't care if he makes records with us again, what I want for him is to have a happy, healthy life." I don't know if Carl felt differently back in 1976. It does seem someone was pushing Brian to be active in the band again in 76, maybe it was Landy, maybe it was Mike, maybe it was ....whoever. By 1983, things were much different.
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« Reply #249 on: April 09, 2016, 11:06:51 PM »

It does seem someone was pushing Brian to be active in the band again in 76, maybe it was Landy, maybe it was Mike, maybe it was ....whoever.

The "Brian's Back !" campaign was the brainchild of Steve Love.
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