What if The Beach Boys Love You was scrapped?

[KDS]

To me when somebody says "I can't like that because it's too mainstream" or "If it's popular, it can't be that good" then I have a hard time believing most of what they say.  And, yes, I have actually heard people say these actual words in person.  

But this is something altogether different. Isn't saying "if it's popular, it can't be good" along the same lines as saying, "If you say you like Love You, you may be lying"?

Yes, but that's not what I said.  I said there's a small amount of people who profess their love for albums like Love You just to be different. 

I happen to believe that to be true.  I stand by that.  And I don't feel any need to apologize for an opinion. 

[TimeToGetAlone]

When it comes to the late 70's LPs, Love You is the one for me that holds up.  A couple of the ballads aside, I don't think it's necessarily the songwriting that puts it over the top (I tend to think most Brian-penned tracks would sound good in the right context already).  I like the productions and vocals, at least two of which seem to be criticisms sometimes levied against this record.  If you put those same tracks with processed vocals and/or tacky/over-polished productions of virtually every group album thereafter, that appeal is largely dropped.

No, this is a lo-fi work that relishes in a blend of original instrumental choices and arrangements.  And as much as I love the pristine vocals of the 60's, the appeal of their singing was never for me only about how smooth their voices were.  I want a level of character and unpretentiousness, which I feel this record definitely still keeps intact.  And quite frankly, Brian's falsetto still leaves a lot to like here to these ears.

So, to the answer the thread's question, if Love You was scrapped it would be much easier to draw the line at 1973 for quality listening beyond select tracks thereafter, the latter part of the decade being far less enigmatic.  And there would be about a dozen less songs on my playlist.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

To me when somebody says "I can't like that because it's too mainstream" or "If it's popular, it can't be that good" then I have a hard time believing most of what they say.  And, yes, I have actually heard people say these actual words in person.  

But this is something altogether different. Isn't saying "if it's popular, it can't be good" along the same lines as saying, "If you say you like Love You, you may be lying"?

Yes, but that's not what I said.  I said there's a small amount of people who profess their love for albums like Love You just to be different.  

I don't think I understand the difference. If they are professing their love for albums like Love You just to be different, aren't you implying that they don't actually love it as much as they say they do? If you are not implying that, what are you saying?

And I don't feel any need to apologize for an opinion.  

I don't think anyone has asked you to apologize.

[RangeRoverA1]

Just agree to disagree. Nobody asked you to apologize.

[the captain]

I think KDS makes sense. Obviously no single explanation is going to describe every individual's taste, but most people certainly admit there is a subset of art fans--and we can call them hipsters or whatever else--who inevitably take a kind of contrarian position, picking obscure or early or late or otherwise unpopular items, seemingly based on some almost ideological position that rare taste is superior to common taste. And while that might be true--some early, or late, or unpopular item might truly be better than the most popular item--it's absurd to think that such a situation is always true. The odds of someone actually preferring only unpopular or obscure items are nil; the odds of them faking (or even lying to themselves and so somehow believing in) their taste to promote their own superiority are good.

And to the world at large, Love You would seem a perfect candidate for such an item: universally admired genius's almost wholly unknown (again, to the world at large, not to people here) work, which happens to be beautiful, creepy, weird, and sometimes poorly performed. (I love Love You and won't try to analyze my own reasons for it. Maybe I'm one of the aforementioned dipshits. That's fine.) To the bigger world, it is an irrelevant album; if it didn't exist, the world wouldn't have noticed.

[the captain]

Also, KDS: I demand an apology. 

[KDS]

Well, Captain.  You've explained my point much much better than I did. 

And about your apology.........um...no.   

[TimeToGetAlone]

To me when somebody says "I can't like that because it's too mainstream" or "If it's popular, it can't be that good" then I have a hard time believing most of what they say.  And, yes, I have actually heard people say these actual words in person.  

But this is something altogether different. Isn't saying "if it's popular, it can't be good" along the same lines as saying, "If you say you like Love You, you may be lying"?

Yes, but that's not what I said.  I said there's a small amount of people who profess their love for albums like Love You just to be different.  

I happen to believe that to be true.  I stand by that.  And I don't feel any need to apologize for an opinion.  

You know, I don't think you're wrong in thinking some might exclaim the merits of an LP like Love You ahead of other more well-known albums simply because it doesn't get the recognition, but I don't think people like it purely due to this reason either.  Love You is neither the most obscure nor the most maligned in their discography, so if someone really wanted to be different they could do better than Love You.  At the very least, there has to be a level of appeal to the listener for this one to emerge above other latter day works.

As far as the hipster argument, I think it's true that some people will for a time deliberately set their tastes to what isn't liked, but there's a rhyme and reason behind what they seek out that aligns with their tastes.  This goes especially for stuff that isn't contemporary.  Someone digging into 40 year old music obviously has an interest in this period even if they might seek out more esoteric stuff.

In the general public consciousness, I don't think The Beach Boys' music is known enough for people to know the difference between the LPs other than the big two, so I don't really see why Love You would be any different than, say, Carl and the Passions or Holland in this regard. In other words, if it's a case of simply going against the grain, I think you could apply that argument to pretty much any record The Beach Boys did other than (or, today, maybe even including) Pet Sounds and Smile.

[the captain]

Well, Captain.  You've explained my point much much better than I did. 

And about your apology.........um...no.   

I accept your apology.

[RangeRoverA1]

I know I shouldn't respond to your posts but are you saying there are actually people who, based on just ideology that rare taste is superior, deliberately pick up the most unpopular choices even if they don't really like those choices? I don't see how it works.

[the captain]

I believe you.

[KDS]

I know I shouldn't respond to your posts but are you saying there are actually people who, based on just ideology that rare taste is superior, deliberately pick up the most unpopular choices even if they don't really like those choices? I don't see how it works.

Yes, that is 100% true.  There are such people.  Why?  Nobody really knows, but I think Captain provided a pretty good explanation. 

[Micha]

I know I shouldn't respond to your posts but are you saying there are actually people who, based on just ideology that rare taste is superior, deliberately pick up the most unpopular choices even if they don't really like those choices? I don't see how it works.

They don't really lie to you, they rather lie to themselves.

[AndrewHickey]

The odds of someone actually preferring only unpopular or obscure items are nil;

No, they're not. I know *many* people who prefer only unpopular and obscure music -- often far less popular and far more obscure than anything I'd listen to myself.
Popular music tends to share quite a lot of commonalities, in terms of song structure, arrangement, vocal styles, types of recording, and so forth. If, for example, someone disliked the sound of the electric guitar or the snare drum, then pretty much all music that was popular between, say, 1958 and 1980, would not be to their taste.
More generally, if someone has a genuine taste for the novel over the formulaic, for the dissonant over the consonant, for the abrasive over the comforting, that person will in general only like music that isn't popular.
Some people will only like the most popular music. The vast majority will like a range of music, some more popular than others. And some will only like the least popular music. That's exactly what one would expect if people's tastes ranged normally around a central mean.

the odds of them faking (or even lying to themselves and so somehow believing in) their taste to promote their own superiority are good.

They're really not, given that the near-universal reaction to anyone whose tastes are even slightly out of the mainstream is to dismiss them as a "hipster", claim that they're lying about their tastes to impress people, and then ridicule them.

Given the choice between "these people I know who are, in other respects, perfectly reasonable and intelligent people, but who discuss listening to old C90s of someone hitting a metal bucket and shouting, are doing so because they actually think it impresses people, even though nobody has ever been impressed by it and a lot of people mock them for it" and "these people are getting something different from the music they listen to than I get -- so different that they actually enjoy listening to an old C90 of someone hitting a metal bucket and shouting", the second is far more believable to me -- and also doesn't require assuming anyone is a liar.

[the captain]

I think you're arguing against a straw-man caricature about what I believe as opposed to my real point, but I also think you're incorrect anyway. Rather than further hijack--I know how horrible that practice is for some of our fellow Smiley Smilers--I'm pretty sure there's a hipsterism thread in the sandbox or general music forum. I'd be glad to continue it there, which actually makes sense since it goes well beyond just music.

[KDS]

To me when somebody says "I can't like that because it's too mainstream" or "If it's popular, it can't be that good" then I have a hard time believing most of what they say.  And, yes, I have actually heard people say these actual words in person.  

But this is something altogether different. Isn't saying "if it's popular, it can't be good" along the same lines as saying, "If you say you like Love You, you may be lying"?

Yes, but that's not what I said.  I said there's a small amount of people who profess their love for albums like Love You just to be different.  

I happen to believe that to be true.  I stand by that.  And I don't feel any need to apologize for an opinion.  

You know, I don't think you're wrong in thinking some might exclaim the merits of an LP like Love You ahead of other more well-known albums simply because it doesn't get the recognition, but I don't think people like it purely due to this reason either.  Love You is neither the most obscure nor the most maligned in their discography, so if someone really wanted to be different they could do better than Love You.  At the very least, there has to be a level of appeal to the listener for this one to emerge above other latter day works.

As far as the hipster argument, I think it's true that some people will for a time deliberately set their tastes to what isn't liked, but there's a rhyme and reason behind what they seek out that aligns with their tastes.  This goes especially for stuff that isn't contemporary.  Someone digging into 40 year old music obviously has an interest in this period even if they might seek out more esoteric stuff.

In the general public consciousness, I don't think The Beach Boys' music is known enough for people to know the difference between the LPs other than the big two, so I don't really see why Love You would be any different than, say, Carl and the Passions or Holland in this regard. In other words, if it's a case of simply going against the grain, I think you could apply that argument to pretty much any record The Beach Boys did other than (or, today, maybe even including) Pet Sounds and Smile.

Time to Get Alone,

I agree.  I've listened to Love You several times, and I can see why a lot of people on here like it even it its not my cup of tea.  As I said, I think the majority of Love You fans on here are on the level and are legit fans of the album.

And you're right, one could be a hipster and chose several different unpopular choices.  Summer in Paradise could even have that "it's so bad it's good" thing going for it.  

[RangeRoverA1]

2Mr. Hickey: Yes, I don't think it's plausible to bring stats into this discussion, odds are nil etc. So again I agree with you.

[Emily]

I'm pretty sure that there are people in this thread making assumptions about other people's tastes and motives based on superficial familiarity with a few individuals of similar external appearance, which is pretty illogical (and has lead to historical horrors when taken to its extreme) but a common human failing.

[RangeRoverA1]

You mean KDS?

[filledeplage]

I know I shouldn't respond to your posts but are you saying there are actually people who, based on just ideology that rare taste is superior, deliberately pick up the most unpopular choices even if they don't really like those choices? I don't see how it works.

They don't really lie to you, they rather lie to themselves.

Micha - one of my late brothers liked MIU, and Love You. (He was into TM so that explains MIU and better than Love You, I think.) I had all the albums and was surprised that he liked these ones as much as he said he did.  He was in college at the time which could explain the timeline.  

And, I think the best track (my favorite, anyway) that embodies their sound is on Love You is "I'll Bet He's Nice."  I still really like that Brian-Dennis-Carl track.  

After CATP and Holland, it seemed impossible that this followed. It sort of always felt rushed or unfinished to to me.  

But, I did love my bro, and let him have his space and taste, even if I would roll my eyes at him.    He deserved that, as I would drag him to BB concerts and he would never complain.  

[Emily]

You mean KDS?

Among others. I think to assign a subculture to someone based on -what?- their clothes, their manner of speech, their facial hair, their neighborhood in Brooklyn- and to then assume a package of tastes and *motives for those tastes* is to follow the same part of human instinct that drives bigotry.

[KDS]

You mean KDS?

Yep, my comments could lead to historical horrors.  

[Smilin Ed H]

Wow, I had exactly the same reaction. It's the biggest pet peeve of mine when people throw this "you're a hipster" card. So, what if I like sth. unusual and pick up some unconventional choice? I hate to break it but if one says, f.ex., that French is one of the ugliest languages they ever heard, it does indeed mean that they despise it. Why would I think they lie? What for? Hilarious, ya know.
 I wholly agree with Mr. Hickey. Worded perfectly.

If I could explain the rationale of the modern day hipster, I would. 

Easy/ Tight psnts that don't reach their shoes and no socks. There are worse people out there. I wouldn't let it bother you.

[Lonely Summer]

That's pretty much how I feel Lonely Summer. 

The deep in quality from the early 70s albums to 15BO/LY is very jarring. 

I know this is an unpopular opinion, but I think MIU and LA were better albums once the other BB took the reins back from Brian, who IMO, wasn't ready to be in charge again.   

Well, I would agree that MIU certainly sounds better on the surface than Love You, although the material is not very strong. LA is one of my favorites - it's almost like an early 70's BB's album with all those songs from Carl and Dennis.

[Theydon Bois]

...most people certainly admit there is a subset of art fans--and we can call them hipsters or whatever else--who inevitably take a kind of contrarian position, picking obscure or early or late or otherwise unpopular items, seemingly based on some almost ideological position that rare taste is superior to common taste.

Oh, the captain, you disappoint me.  From your moniker, I'm assuming that you share at least one other of my tastes in music, and I've frankly lost count of the number of times I've had to read articles / listen to blowhards insisting that nobody actually likes Trout Mask Replica or would ever dare listen to it for fun, or that to claim appreciation of it is to be contrarian for contrarianism's sake.  And that experience has given me very limited patience with this particular train of argument.  Gimme that old time religion, gimme that old time religion, don't gimme no affliction, that old time religion is good enough for me.