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Author Topic: Holy… NOTE: THERE'S NO FIRE WITHOUT SMOKE (… got in my eyes…)  (Read 9634 times)
The Shift
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« on: November 25, 2015, 03:17:57 PM »

EDITED TO ADD: before clinking on the link within this post and washing money down the plughole, please read the rest of the thread: you might conclude that the item isn't one for the Smithsonian after all!
 _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

This is one ebay item that oughta have its own thread and ought to be secured for the nation (your nation, not mine…)

http://www.ebay.com/itm/252185697042
« Last Edit: November 27, 2015, 06:04:14 AM by John Manning » Logged

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ash
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« Reply #1 on: November 25, 2015, 04:45:08 PM »

zoinks and double zoinks !!
not quite as exciting as the I'm In Great Shape/my children were raised acetate though. 
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« Reply #2 on: November 25, 2015, 05:43:36 PM »

 Shocked Shocked

I threw in a few bids for the hell of it.  I didn't really expect to get it for $37, but it never hurts to try.
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Andrew G. Doe
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« Reply #3 on: November 25, 2015, 10:13:52 PM »

Someone with better knowledge will hopefully chime in on this point: why is a demo recorded in LA pressed up on an acetate manufactured in Paramus NJ ? Seems a tad odd.

Edit: eh, never mind. Google is my friend.  Smiley
« Last Edit: November 25, 2015, 10:16:01 PM by Andrew G. Doe » Logged

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Cam Mott
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« Reply #4 on: November 26, 2015, 05:24:00 AM »

Someone with better knowledge will hopefully chime in on this point: why is a demo recorded in LA pressed up on an acetate manufactured in Paramus NJ ? Seems a tad odd.

Edit: eh, never mind. Google is my friend.  Smiley

I had the same question. Were the discs with sleeves a proprietary product supplied by Presto under their brand for use on their equipment?
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LeeDempsey
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« Reply #5 on: November 26, 2015, 07:49:16 AM »

I am not going to come right out and declare this to be a fake, but color me skeptical for the following reasons:

1) Presto recording discs and their related equipment were mainly used by radio stations for transcription purposes.  Audiodiscs were the dominant acetate blank of the late '50s and '60s for the professional studio scene.  That's not to say that a lower-budget studio couldn't have re-purposed a radio transcription machine for studio use, but so could an amateur hobbyist desiring to cut his or her own "vintage" acetates.  Blanks are still out there, and occasionally show up on eBay.

2) This appears to be a 12" recording blank, repurposed for a 7" cut.  Most 45 rpm acetates from this time period are cut on 8" or 10" blanks.  Again, this smells of a leftover acetate blank being put to use.

3) Most condemningly, check out the Beatles acetate shown on this site:

http://www.beatlesource.com/bs/ao-askmewhy.html

Check out the position of the artist name in all-caps, the "45 RPM" in all-caps, the title in all-caps without quotation marks around it, the use of a single initial with a period in the name of the Recorder (although one is in all-caps, and one is not), and the format of the date -- month abbreviated to 3 letters, a period, followed by a comma and a space, followed by the year.  This is enough evidence to me to indicate that both of these acetates were cut by the same individual -- one purporting to be from February 1962, and one from November 1962.

I will NOT be bidding on this, and I would warn others against bidding until the evidence I've presented above is refuted.

Lee
« Last Edit: November 26, 2015, 08:10:35 AM by LeeDempsey » Logged
Andrew G. Doe
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« Reply #6 on: November 26, 2015, 08:53:08 AM »

Were I going to bid on this, the minimum of info I would expect would be who is the owner, how did they come by the disc, and where. In short, provenance. There is none.

Coupled with Lee's incisive observations, I'd have to say this item is looking increasingly suspect.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2015, 08:56:59 AM by Andrew G. Doe » Logged

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LeeDempsey
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« Reply #7 on: November 26, 2015, 09:11:02 AM »

I just sent an eBay message to the seller inquiring about the commonalities with the Beatles acetate, and he/she quickly responded that they were from the same source -- but they didn't reveal that source.

Lee
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« Reply #8 on: November 26, 2015, 09:29:54 AM »

Those alarm bells ? They just started ringing a little louder.
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LeeDempsey
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« Reply #9 on: November 26, 2015, 09:56:39 AM »

Some photos of Eddie Cochran acetates from 1957 here, with the same Presto label:

http://www.eddiecochran.info/Discography/USA/Miscellaneous/I.htm

YouTube of Dave Burgess (The Champs) Presto acetate from 1959:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=iQXTfSCg4Og

I suppose it's possible that the same label was still in use in 1962...
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The Shift
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« Reply #10 on: November 26, 2015, 10:04:45 AM »

Oh blimey… apologies if I've posted something that's had folk here bidding on what might turn out to be a fake.

Might Jim Murphy be able to shed any light, or pass the question to those who would know?
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Andrew G. Doe
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« Reply #11 on: November 26, 2015, 11:51:12 AM »

Maybe I'm being super dim here... but how do you typewrite a label that's stuck to the acetate ?
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LeeDempsey
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« Reply #12 on: November 26, 2015, 12:03:42 PM »

Maybe I'm being super dim here... but how do you typewrite a label that's stuck to the acetate ?

Very astute observation Andrew; that label was glued on at the factory. The studios typically covered up the acetate manufacturer label with their own typed label.  All the other Presto examples on the internet that I've been able to find are handwritten.  You would have to steam or scrape the label off, type the info, and re-apply it.  Or make a copy on a color printer...

Also note that on the vintage handwritten examples there are two additional holes covered up by the label at the 2 o'clock and 10 o'clock positions.  You can see the impression on the label.  Where are they on this acetate???
« Last Edit: November 26, 2015, 01:06:35 PM by LeeDempsey » Logged
Andrew G. Doe
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« Reply #13 on: November 26, 2015, 12:52:30 PM »

Those alarm bells are starting to give me a headache...
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« Reply #14 on: November 26, 2015, 01:22:04 PM »

Oh blimey… apologies if I've posted something that's had folk here bidding on what might turn out to be a fake.

Might Jim Murphy be able to shed any light, or pass the question to those who would know?
If you didn't post it, the experts may not have been able to raise their q's/observations - at least those chasing such stuff via eBay now have some what to think about tips when shopping.
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Andrew G. Doe
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« Reply #15 on: November 26, 2015, 01:26:31 PM »

Sent him an email via eBay outlining my concerns. We'll see what the reply is. If any.
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Andrew G. Doe
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« Reply #16 on: November 26, 2015, 01:53:18 PM »

The vendor is no serious BB fan, or he'd know about the original lyric.
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« Reply #17 on: November 26, 2015, 01:56:25 PM »

Beattles with two 't's' and Huntingtton with two 't's' ?
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Andrew G. Doe
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« Reply #18 on: November 26, 2015, 02:12:16 PM »

Re: The Beattles disc... did it never occur to him to ask, "what is a US manufactured acetate doing in Abbey Road ?"
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LeeDempsey
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« Reply #19 on: November 26, 2015, 06:09:11 PM »

Re: The Beattles disc... did it never occur to him to ask, "what is a US manufactured acetate doing in Abbey Road ?"

Exactly.  I would have thought that the story of it being made for E.M.I. but having a U.S.-formatted date would have raised red flags with the Beatles experts.
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« Reply #20 on: November 26, 2015, 07:11:09 PM »

Are there any known cases of Presto supplying blank labels which could be typewritten on and then pasted on top of the original Presto label? Otherwise, yeah, how could you have a legitimate typewritten Presto label? Did that ever occur to whomever removed and repasted the original label, assuming that's what took place?

As I write this it's up to $426 with 5 ˝ days to go.
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Andrew G. Doe
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« Reply #21 on: November 26, 2015, 11:07:24 PM »

A reply. He claims it's a 10" disc. It's clearly not. Compare the width of the dead wax on it with The Beattles disc, also listed as a 10". On the latter, it's roughly the width of the label on either side. On the BB disc, it's clearly wider.

Amusingly, in response to my asking why a disc made in NJ was being used in an LA studio, he said "The Beachboys originated in the L.A. area and not in New Jersey. I think as a historian you would know this very well known fact." Er... well yes, I do... and that wasn't my question. Less amusingly, he completely ignored my question about the label being typewritten. Note that when an acetate of "Surfin'" with the label - typed - as being by The Surfers was altered to The Beach Boys, it was handwritten.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2015, 11:11:06 PM by Andrew G. Doe » Logged

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LeeDempsey
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« Reply #22 on: November 26, 2015, 11:18:07 PM »

Seller's completed auction for a cutter head for an acetate lathe:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Audax-Lathe-Record-Cutter-Head-Device-Model-RH5-for-Presto-and-Rek-O-Kut-/252073543055?hash=item3ab0c1058f%3Ag%3A3DAAAOSwd0BV4bi9&nma=true&si=ZUv9%252Bw5rxbaxExYhpoikshfpzNw%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557
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The Shift
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« Reply #23 on: November 26, 2015, 11:25:14 PM »

Has he sold any typewriters recently?
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« Reply #24 on: November 26, 2015, 11:40:25 PM »

Andrew's alarm bells are giving me a headache now.  Grin
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