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Author Topic: Specifics on Brian's extraction from Landy  (Read 29419 times)
Mike's Beard
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« Reply #100 on: October 15, 2015, 05:51:51 PM »

I'm not gonna swap kindergarten insults with you, Beard. Or make this personal and bug the mods, that's what I was talking about.

But this charade is preposterous. You lack conviction and bgas called it. Pure devil's advocate nonsense from people who should know better. You'd holler like stuck pigs if any of Mike's lyrical contributions were challenged... but wow, invoke the specter of the diabolical Melinda Wilson in defense of EUGENE FUCKING LANDY. Not transparent at all.

What a twisted version of "historical accuracy." A new low, fellas. Enjoy the view.

Jeez, how many more times are you going to modify the same post? Got it all off your chest yet?
Nobody is defending "FUCKING LANDY", but the fact remains that he collaborated many times with Brian Wilson. Many would even argue hinder. You can't change the past so why whitewash it?
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« Reply #101 on: October 15, 2015, 05:53:07 PM »

He didn't you dolt, Landy slapped his name on there as yet another way to steal money from BW.
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And production aside, Id so much rather hear a 14 year old David Marks shred some guitar on Chug-a-lug than hear a 51 year old Mike Love sing about bangin some chick in a swimming pool.-rab2591
Mike's Beard
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« Reply #102 on: October 15, 2015, 05:56:00 PM »

There seems to be some kind of theory that there's a conspiracy goin' on

I think the preferred term is 'agenda'.
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« Reply #103 on: October 15, 2015, 05:57:14 PM »

By a certain online PR manager for Mike Love....
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And production aside, Id so much rather hear a 14 year old David Marks shred some guitar on Chug-a-lug than hear a 51 year old Mike Love sing about bangin some chick in a swimming pool.-rab2591
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« Reply #104 on: October 15, 2015, 06:00:03 PM »

By a certain online PR manager for Mike Love....

Huh? Now you've completely lost me be bold, name names and spell it out.
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CenturyDeprived
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« Reply #105 on: October 15, 2015, 06:04:04 PM »

He didn't you dolt, Landy slapped his name on there as yet another way to steal money from BW.

I agree that this is probably the case with a number of the songs. However, if he actually added some part of any actual substance to a song, whether we like it or not, regardless of whether or not he was a sick, despicable f*ck (as he was), that contribution is done and can't be undone without time travel and removing the contributed part(s), if any legitimately are present within any songs.

I can understand and get the concept of removing a person from credits (for moral, ethical reasons) in a very unique circumstance such as this, and believe me I am in no way trying to stick up for Landy's ilk... but simply as a matter of historical accuracy, it's a subject I find interesting discussing, even though I know it's touchy and can trigger nerves for some people.

For example, I really dig the tune In My Car. While the album Still Cruisin' has yet to see a reissue that would remove Landy/Morgan's name from it, if the lyrics were in fact written (or partially written) by either of them, I personally find that an interesting factoid to know when listening to the song. I don't *want* to think that some people with despicable intentions wrote lyrics that I'm bopping my head to, but at the same time I don't want to put my head in the sand like an ostrich and pretend that they didn't in fact write them (if they in fact did).
« Last Edit: October 15, 2015, 06:07:45 PM by CenturyDeprived » Logged
Ray Lawlor
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« Reply #106 on: October 15, 2015, 06:04:32 PM »

In the interest of " historical accuracy ". On the BW 88 album, my original copy, Love and Mercy is credited to Brian Wilson and Eugene E Landy. I asked Brian last week for a very specific reason , what exactly did Landy write on Love and Mercy. Answer: " I wrote every note and every word. He wrote nothing , just put his name on it. ".  I'm going to ask him more next week when I see him about Landy's contributions to specific songs.

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« Reply #107 on: October 15, 2015, 06:08:44 PM »

In the interest of " historical accuracy ". On the BW 88 album, my original copy, Love and Mercy is credited to Brian Wilson and Eugene E Landy. I asked Brian last week for a very specific reason , what exactly did Landy write on Love and Mercy. Answer: " I wrote every note and every word. He wrote nothing , just put his name on it. ".  I'm going to ask him more next week when I see him about Landy's contributions to specific songs.

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Many thanks Ray, I've been hoping you'd add to this thread as possibly the best source of definitive facts. That's all I'm keen to know: facts.
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Mike's Beard
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« Reply #108 on: October 15, 2015, 06:11:29 PM »

He didn't you dolt, Landy slapped his name on there as yet another way to steal money from BW.

I agree that this is probably the case with a number of the songs. However, if he actually added some part of any actual substance to a song, whether we like it or not, regardless of whether or not he was a sick, despicable f*ck (as he was), that contribution is done and can't be undone without time travel and removing the contributed part(s), if any legitimately are present within any songs.

That's my stance on the whole matter in a nutshell.
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« Reply #109 on: October 15, 2015, 06:20:10 PM »

He didn't you dolt, Landy slapped his name on there as yet another way to steal money from BW.

I agree that this is probably the case with a number of the songs. However, if he actually added some part of any actual substance to a song, whether we like it or not, regardless of whether or not he was a sick, despicable f*ck (as he was), that contribution is done and can't be undone without time travel and removing the contributed part(s), if any legitimately are present within any songs.

That's my stance on the whole matter in a nutshell.

Yup, the whole of CenturyDeprived's post (which I missed initially; some flub with browser refreshing I think) nails the issue nicely.
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CenturyDeprived
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« Reply #110 on: October 15, 2015, 06:23:05 PM »

He didn't you dolt, Landy slapped his name on there as yet another way to steal money from BW.

I agree that this is probably the case with a number of the songs. However, if he actually added some part of any actual substance to a song, whether we like it or not, regardless of whether or not he was a sick, despicable f*ck (as he was), that contribution is done and can't be undone without time travel and removing the contributed part(s), if any legitimately are present within any songs.

That's my stance on the whole matter in a nutshell.

It is of course, troubling and despicable to know that Landy added exactly zero to Love and Mercy and tried to take credit for it. Maybe on another song he added slightly more than zero, and on another one, slightly more than that. I certainly don't know specifics. However, I should add that if a contribution was in fact made that was so incredibly minimal as to barely merit a credit whatsoever, it's perfectly fair to think that it doesn't deserve to be there (and I say that aside from the relationship the two of them had)... much like the oft-debated credit of Mike on Wouldn't It Be Nice, which I think is pretty ridiculous, even if the  contribution is in fact slightly more than zero.

I can certainly understand that a blanket approach to just wanting remove Landy from credits makes the most moral sense, but ultimately the concept remains just a bit odd to me - and I say that with the utmost respect to Brian (and I think Landy is an absolute piece of sh*t), because I look at crediting as something unrelated to Brian's admittedly horrible and unique situation; I'd feel the same way if this were about a movie script, a rap group, or any artistic project which a very, very sh*tty person added something to the song. If Murry, for example, had actually produced or cowritten a BB song, and during the writing he did all sorts of despicable, unethical, physically and emotionally abusive stuff, I'd still reluctantly say that it would be a bit odd if his name were removed if his hypothetical contributions actually were present on the song.

I think Phil Spector's a giant jerk who took advantage of people and emotionally abused his employees, but I can't deny that he was an inextricable part of many great songs. Of course, that's a way different example, since Landy and Morgan may have (at best) contributed a little here and a little there.

But for the record I am NOT saying that I think Landy's credits need to be reinstated or anything. I'm not advocating for Landy in any way shape or form, just having a discussion about historical accuracy out of my own curiosity, that's all.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2015, 06:32:36 PM by CenturyDeprived » Logged
Rocky Raccoon
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« Reply #111 on: October 15, 2015, 06:31:58 PM »

I think Landy's writing credits on the '88 album are mostly superfluous.  Brian worked with hired writing collaborators like Jeff Lynne and Andy Paley and I highly doubt Landy was sitting in on those writing sessions.  Plus, from what I've read, Russ Titelman was very adamant about keeping Landy out as much as he could.  It's possible of course that he and Morgan suggested a line here and there and sometimes that line may have even made it in but that's not the same as sitting down and composing a song together, it doesn't really warrant a co-writing credit.
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« Reply #112 on: October 15, 2015, 06:32:17 PM »

Well put again, CD.
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Mike's Beard
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« Reply #113 on: October 15, 2015, 06:36:09 PM »


 
It is of course, troubling and despicable to know that Landy added exactly zero to Love and Mercy and tried to take credit for it. Maybe on another song he added slightly more than zero, and on another one, slightly more than that. I certainly don't know specifics. However, I should add that if a contribution was in fact made that was so incredibly minimal as to barely merit a credit whatsoever, it's perfectly fair to think that it doesn't deserve to be there (and I say that aside from the relationship the two of them had)... much like the oft-debated credit of Mike on Wouldn't It Be Nice, which I think is pretty ridiculous, even if the  contribution is in fact slightly more than zero.

I can certainly understand that a blanket approach to just wanting remove Landy from credits makes the most moral sense, but ultimately the concept remains just a bit odd to me - and I say that with the utmost respect to Brian (and I think Landy is an absolute piece of sh*t), because I look at crediting as something unrelated to Brian's admittedly horrible and unique situation; I'd feel the same way if this were about a movie script, a rap group, or any artistic project which a very, very sh*tty person added something to the song. If Murry, for example, had actually produced or cowritten a BB song, and during the writing he did all sorts of despicable, unethical, physically and emotionally abusive stuff, I'd still reluctantly say that it would be a bit odd if his name were removed if his hypothetical contributions actually were present on the song.

I think Phil Spector's a giant jerk who took advantage of people and emotionally abused his employees, but I can't deny that he was an inextricable part of many great songs. Of course, that's a way different example, since Landy and Morgan may have (at best) contributed a little here and a little there.

But for the record I am NOT saying that I think Landy's credits need to be reinstated or anything. I'm not advocating for Landy in any way shape or form, just having a discussion about historical accuracy out of my own curiosity, that's all.

Very true and it would be interesting to hear just what pinch of salt contributions Landy and Morgan added to the songs they received credit on. I always thought that the general consensus was that by the time of the Sweet Insanity era, Landy was imposing his 'talents' on Brian every step of the way.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2015, 06:38:03 PM by Mike's Beard » Logged

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« Reply #114 on: October 15, 2015, 06:39:50 PM »

I think Phil Spector's a giant jerk who took advantage of people and emotionally abused his employees, but I can't deny that he was an inextricable part of many great songs. Of course, that's a way different example, since Landy and Morgan may have (at best) contributed a little here and a little there.

Spector also slapped his name on songs he didn't write.  Any song credited as Greenwich/Barry/Spector or Weil/Mann/Spector could easily have the Spector credit removed and it wouldn't make a difference (for the most part at least, I know Mann has said he at least made a small contribution to "You Lost That Loving Feeling").
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« Reply #115 on: October 15, 2015, 06:45:44 PM »

I think Landy's writing credits on the '88 album are mostly superfluous.  Brian worked with hired writing collaborators like Jeff Lynne and Andy Paley and I highly doubt Landy was sitting in on those writing sessions.  Plus, from what I've read, Russ Titelman was very adamant about keeping Landy out as much as he could.  It's possible of course that he and Morgan suggested a line here and there and sometimes that line may have even made it in but that's not the same as sitting down and composing a song together, it doesn't really warrant a co-writing credit.

Fair enough. That may in fact be completely accurate.
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CenturyDeprived
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« Reply #116 on: October 15, 2015, 06:48:09 PM »

I think Phil Spector's a giant jerk who took advantage of people and emotionally abused his employees, but I can't deny that he was an inextricable part of many great songs. Of course, that's a way different example, since Landy and Morgan may have (at best) contributed a little here and a little there.

Spector also slapped his name on songs he didn't write.  Any song credited as Greenwich/Barry/Spector or Weil/Mann/Spector could easily have the Spector credit removed and it wouldn't make a difference (for the most part at least, I know Mann has said he at least made a small contribution to "You Lost That Loving Feeling").

True - but that despicable (and apparently successful?) attempt to add his name to songs he didn't write doesn't mean that other songs that he did in fact cowrite should have his name removed... which is where the confusion lies with the concept, in my eyes at least.

I reiterate that I'm just playing the devil's advocate for the concept of credit removal, as it's a subject I don't know a ton about from a legal standpoint. Please know I don't want to come off like I'm defending scumbags, of which Landy is certainly one! I think that Landy is/was an assclown who from an ethical standpoint deserves less than nothing.  It would be interesting for me to read up more about the concept of other cases where this has been done, in various forms of media.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2015, 07:01:31 PM by CenturyDeprived » Logged
Mike's Beard
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« Reply #117 on: October 15, 2015, 06:51:24 PM »

Remember Glenn Frey's motto, "Write a word, take a third".  Cool
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« Reply #118 on: October 15, 2015, 06:53:38 PM »

Remember Glenn Frey's motto, "Write a word, take a third".  Cool

Um, I think that's also the Lovester's motto.
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Mike's Beard
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« Reply #119 on: October 15, 2015, 06:55:40 PM »

Remember Glenn Frey's motto, "Write a word, take a third".  Cool

Um, I think that's also the Lovester's motto.

No, his is "Write a hook, make out like a crook".
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« Reply #120 on: October 15, 2015, 07:01:37 PM »

Either that or "Pretend the existing bass line to Good Vibrations is a hook he contributed," but that's not quite as catchy.
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« Reply #121 on: October 15, 2015, 07:46:00 PM »

Either that or "Pretend the existing bass line to Good Vibrations is a hook he contributed," but that's not quite as catchy.

Claiming that he wrote the melody to that part is as laughable as any of Landy's claims that have been refuted, like Brian just noted to Ray. Yes, the chorus words (minus the words GV themselves) could be considered hooky, but to claim contributions to the melody is obviously excessive as proven by the tracking sessions.
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Emily
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« Reply #122 on: October 15, 2015, 07:53:34 PM »

Technical question: if one has credit, on the sleeve or disc, does one inevitably have the right to claim royalties or can the two be separated?
Aside from that, while I'm all for historical accuracy, it can be gained without rewarding criminal action. Everyone here knows and anyone with internet access can learn easily enough that Landy to some degree was involved in the writing of some of those songs. Not many people know, or have the resources to learn, to what degree. Does credit on a sleeve change that? If someone has no information and they pick up an album that says Eugene Landy cowrote half the songs, would that give that person a historically accurate picture? The situation was complex enough that any understanding of the "cowriting" by Landy must come with a reasonable amount of contextual reading. I think credits on a sleeve actually would inspire a lesser understanding of the true history. Maybe an asterix (edited to add: or an Obelix. How embarrassing is that mistake?) on the sleeve with a note that Eugene Landy had a sinister and illegal involvement with the creation and creator of those songs with a pointer to some reference material would best serve history.
 
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Mike's Beard
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« Reply #123 on: October 15, 2015, 08:00:42 PM »

Technical question: if one has credit, on the sleeve or disc, does one inevitably have the right to claim royalties or can the two be separated?
Aside from that, while I'm all for historical accuracy, it can be gained without rewarding criminal action. Everyone here knows and anyone with internet access can learn easily enough that Landy to some degree was involved in the writing of some of those songs. Not many people know, or have the resources to learn, to what degree. Does credit on a sleeve change that? If someone has no information and they pick up an album that says Eugene Landy cowrote half the songs, would that give that person a historically accurate picture? The situation was complex enough that any understanding of the "cowriting" by Landy must come with a reasonable amount of contextual reading. I think credits on a sleeve actually would inspire a lesser understanding of the true history. Maybe an asterix on the sleeve with a note that Eugene Landy had a sinister and illegal involvement with the creation and creator of those songs with a pointer to some reference material would best serve history.
 
You make a good point there Emily that someone in theory could pick up a copy of BW88, scan the credits and think "Wow, that Gene Landy was a pretty good songwriter".
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« Reply #124 on: October 15, 2015, 08:34:20 PM »

Back in the day, Beach Boys Australia published a sheet with Landy'a original lyrics for Meet me in my Dreams. Some of it was the same and parts were different -and worse- than the releaaed version ("oh we're gonna have a love attack"). I supposed that the parts that remained unchanged were Brian's.

By the way, during the "Wilson Project" time with Gary Usher, did Usher witness Landy contributing lyrics? Did Gary collabrate with him specifically on lyrics? He believes that some of Brian's lyrics that he dislikes ("I'm broke", "Baby let your hair" and others) are Landy's, but that's his guess. I don't recall any episode of Landy writing lyrics during that time as told by Usher, which is remarkable considering how active Landy seems if one reads the orig. BW 88 sleeve. This may point to at least some of his co-writes being a questionable.
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