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Author Topic: Carol Kaye is at It again  (Read 17966 times)
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« Reply #25 on: July 13, 2015, 08:42:53 AM »

adamghost's post

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« Reply #26 on: July 13, 2015, 08:53:51 AM »

(3) CK is definitely not the only woman professional depicted in the film...maybe the '60s scenes, but hello! Melinda Leadbetter 1980s, anyone?

Exactly.  Indeed, Elizabeth Banks performance in the movie has caused at least one reviewer to call L&M the feminist movie of the year.

The thing I keep coming back to about Carol Kaye and her screeds...I never would have thought any of those things about her character at all until she mentioned them.  As Paul Dano's dialogue says, introducing Tony Asher's character to the musicians, "Tony Asher this is Hal Blaine, the greatest drummer working today.  And, you've never heard of him have you?  That's the secret, all these guys, Hal, Tommy, Carol, Earl the whole band their probably THE BEST in the business, but their studio musicians so nobody's ever heard of them.  It's crazy!"

Yep, real derogatory.
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« Reply #27 on: July 13, 2015, 09:18:34 AM »

Well, yeah, PT, you have a point; after all, it IS all about her, isn't it?
Obviously not. I'm just saying that I can understand why it rankled her a bit. You know?
Well, if that was all she said, sure.  But she didn't.  Here's the whole rant for ya.  Defend if you like:

NOTICE ABOUT THE LOVE & MERCY BIOPIC.........I want to thank all my good Friends and Fans for being concerned about how I was portrayed in Brian Wilson biopic movie "Love And Mercy".....I know you know, it was a totally false personna. Thank-you for your feedback about it .....I'm writing about this to confirm you're all correct.....that portrayal was NOT ME at all, not even close....

I don't know where they got that idea of what I looked like (never wore a fire-hat like a bimbo NO), nor what I said which is completely made-up and false....(no I never said that) and the way I played? That, I was consulted on Skype by the actress about holding the pick but that she even got that wrong too. A minor thing, but tho't I'd mention it as it was the *only* time I was ever contacted. Proof that they knew how to contact me for the rest, but they chose NOT TO verify anything about me.

While yes, they got me wrong in this BioPic, they probably got a lot of other things wrong on other things and people too....however, the fact that I'm the *only woman Professional" widely known in the world for the 1,000s of big hits, movies, and TV-shows I've recorded, heralded as the Leader in Bass Education, most-endorsed Educator, working hard all my life building a huge career that no-one can even come close to doing man or woman....this film slanders me and speaks falsely about women Professionals in general, giving us all a black eye....I was the only "woman" in the Professional role in that film....and yes that made me angry not only for my Family's embarrassment, but also for ALL Top Women Professionals which it affects in all fields...You were correct, it was a slam against us all as you all perceived, yes.

Why they never consulted me, I'll never know...I'm very easy to contact, I'm in the Musicians Union Book. I will be speaking to an attorney soon about this.

Again, I and my Family totally thank you for your great supportive messages.....you know me, and know that was NOT me, and yes, they got me very wrong....... please continue to tell others, thank-you. I'm most-indebted to you for your caring, your support and most of all, letting others know the truth.....that it was a total embarrassment and an insult against all the fine women Professionals everywhere, Thank-You, your Friend, Carol Kaye

(cc: legal file)


Now, full disclosure: I know Teresa Cowles, the actress who played Carol Kaye, extremely well.  She has played with me for over 10 years.  But it's not the implied slight (which I accept was not meant personally, though as I will detail below, the patronization is totally unwarranted) that pisses me off; it's the egocentricity and self-aggrandizement of equating the concern of how her unhappiness with her portrayal somehow is a slight at women professionals everywhere.  A fire hat makes you look like a bimbo, but not the rest of your outfit (which is authentic to '60s stills)?  You've got a problem with how the pick is being held?  And this is a crisis of feminism because you're the "only woman professional" known for X, Y and Z?  

Let me tell y'all why this grates.  Teresa cared enough personally reach out to CK about pick technique because she was a finger player all her life.  She has four days to nail CK's particular style - the style she berates bass players from Gene Simmons on down about because they don't come up to her high technical standards - and didn't.  Would anybody else playing CK even bother, or even get close?  Of course not!  To bring up something so petty, even in terms of making a larger point about the film, is so churlish and clueless I'm just shaking my head in disbelief.

So let me say something about women "professionals" - as I've said, I've played with Teresa Cowles for 10 years, including on the Long Promised Road:  Songs of Dennis and Carl Wilson Live album.  She's also gigged with Al Jardine, The Honeys, Ben Vaughn, Michael des Barres, Jeremy Spencer of Fleetwood Mac, and Brian himself.  Is she as technically gifted as Carol Kaye?  Why no - as CK takes great pains to remind us, she is in a class by herself.  However, can she get a track cut in the studio just as fast as Carol?  Why yes she can, as I have cause to know because I've done dozens of sessions with her.  And she can go out and play that song live and sing a harmony a semitone above the note she's holding down on the bass, which I'm fairly sure CK cannot do.

I personally believe CK is unhappy with Teresa's portrayal because T came across as someone who is pleasant and easy to work with - which she is.  She also is tough as nails and chock full of integrity, as I can attest from having done many club tours with her.  She's as far from a bimbo as one can get.  But most importantly, she shows up for work, and gets the job done, and does not ask for nor receive special attention because she is female.  She is quite simply one of the band on equal terms.  

So I guess I'm offended because CK dares to equate her self-important, petty concerns with one minute of the film with the concerns of "women professionals" everywhere, because, you know, how dare she.  CK was a trailblazer and a fine bass player, no doubt, but Teresa Cowles in no way tarnishes that legacy.  She IS that fricking legacy.  Whining, padding your part, and trumpeting one's own accomplishments is not the mark of a "professional."  Showing up for work and doing your job is.  CK in her ranting does not represent women professionals.  Teresa Cowles does.  

Rant over.  But...God.  I really want to kick that lady in the ass.
Great post! She and Parks are a pair.  This movie is a dramatization. A movie...based on actual events, and she isn't a principal player.  She is little more than an "extra."  It isn't her story. Nor Parks.  Those 60-ish clothes couldn't make Marilyn Monroe look like a bimbo.  The actual black and white session photos make her look "hotter" with her boots (Courreges, I think) than the costuming in the film.  Cute, but neither bimbo-ish.  How she makes that inference, is beyond me.

Carol Kaye did have a somewhat unique role as a female session musician with a bird's eye view of the process of making music in that era of huge creativity in a male-driven industry.  But, it was more the issue of "gender parity" alongside men, having a "seat at the table." And, not her musical genius.  That was Brian's job.  

Slander? Where is it? I'm not seeing it.  I found her character treated quite generously and had more lines than some of "The Beach Boys" characters.  She should have two words... "Thank you."
« Last Edit: July 13, 2015, 09:24:35 AM by filledeplage » Logged
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« Reply #28 on: July 13, 2015, 10:04:07 AM »


 Elizabeth Banks performance in the movie has caused at least one reviewer to call L&M the feminist movie of the year.
[/u]

Please don't ruin this movie for me before I've seen it.
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« Reply #29 on: July 13, 2015, 10:09:45 AM »

Have just got back from seeing "Love & Mercy" and can safely report that Carol Kaye is shown to be nothing but one of the top studio musicians of the day...
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« Reply #30 on: July 13, 2015, 10:19:50 AM »

Have just got back from Seeing "Love & Mercy" and can safely report that Carol Kaye is shown to be nothing but one of the top studio musicians of the day...

Truth be told, I cannot see how anyone who watched the film could come out of it with anything but that impression. For all of the talk coming out of various camps who seem to have an axe to grind or want to find a reason to grind an axe where one doesn't exist, all they need to do is watch the film.

And that issue of the bass root played under a chord that seems to have been brought out, like any script of any film they have to condense certain events into a workable framework, as I mentioned in a post after someone asked about how the film portrayed Smile events. I know of some reports from musicians who were on the original sessions and some who were at those sessions that some of the players (especially some of those who had been playing dates in the 50's and who were coming from the jazz circles with different standards and skill sets than guys like Glen Campbell and Mike Deasy and the younger players) that some of the players would in fact question if not challenge certain parts they were given to play by Brian. It won't work, you can't do that, the notes I'm playing don't fit the chord, etc. Was it Tedesco, Kessel, Ritz, etc? Specifically I don't know if anyone can pinpoint an exact session where we can hear this, but we know that at least Tedesco and Kessel had on occasion raised an eyebrow at what they were asked to play. So the writers of the film took that as a *notion* that they wanted to represent in the studio process as of 1966, and happened to give that scene to the character of Carol to portray. I still don't understand what the brouhaha over it would be, if there are reports that various session players would in fact question some of the parts on the sessions.
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« Reply #31 on: July 13, 2015, 10:48:27 AM »

BTW, in her rant about the movie BEFORE her most recent rant, she explicitly stated that she didn't see the movie. I wonder if that's changed.
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« Reply #32 on: July 13, 2015, 11:08:09 AM »


 Elizabeth Banks performance in the movie has caused at least one reviewer to call L&M the feminist movie of the year.
[/u]

Please don't ruin this movie for me before I've seen it.

Strong female characters are not a good thing?
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« Reply #33 on: July 13, 2015, 11:38:28 AM »

Carol comes across as a very negative person of Facebook. She has ranted on about the bank taking her home, music piracy (I can understand) the term Wrecking Crew, Hal Blaine..the list goes on. I don't claim to know her situation, she obviously is a vital part of rock history, but the pattern of everyone being against her has been flogged to death.
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« Reply #34 on: July 13, 2015, 11:49:05 AM »

fucking carol man...

anyway mad max is the feminist movie of the year.

i think im going to buy one of those paypal skype lessons with carol just so i can ask her wtf.
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« Reply #35 on: July 13, 2015, 12:01:14 PM »

Maybe I'm missing something here, but in the mid-60 the going rate for a three hour session was $81.43 (session: "Summer Means New Love", 5/12/65), and if you did, say, three sessions a day, that was $244.02 minimum: overtime (going over three hours, playing after midnight) could bump that up a fair bit. Say you were first call and played three sessions a day, five days a week, 45 weeks a year: that's a gross of just under $60,000 a year. Of course, taxes and the like had to come out of that (although the AFM deducted pension contributions at source), but even so, that's probably more than the president was getting back then. Yet we keep hearing tales of impoverished session players. Where did it all go ? I know, some went up the nose, or to Uncle Al, but Carol didn't indulge, thus learning a few years back she'd had her house repossessed came as a helluva surprise. I can understand and sympathise with her down against music piracy, but even then she gets it all wrong by threatening to sue Google for selling pirate copies of her tutors and CDs. Nope, not kidding.
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« Reply #36 on: July 13, 2015, 12:03:21 PM »

I prefer feminists that are a little more feminine, but I digress.  I only mentioned that one critic had used that line to prove a point.  

There are no portrayals of women in L&M where they might be construed as a "bimbo".  Marilyn is young and perhaps unsure what to do for Brian as his psychosis sets in.  Melinda is a strong and assertive lady who is handling her business and freely chooses to invest her energy in helping Brian out of the morass.  Carol is in the movie for all of 1-2 minutes tops and she's shown to be a top shelf studio musician, nothing more - nothing less.
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« Reply #37 on: July 13, 2015, 12:27:47 PM »

fucking carol man...

anyway mad max is the feminist movie of the year.

i think im going to buy one of those paypal skype lessons with carol just so i can ask her wtf.
Men can be feminists. It is believing in (female) gender equality.

Losing one's house is a huge stressor. And that is a tragedy.  I wasn't aware this had happened to her.  She might not be thinking clearly and is just lashing out at small things.  Her lashing out might be just an indicator that she needs help. 

Is anything gained, notwithstanding her contentious behavior, in calling her out, with the pretext of "taking a lesson?"

You could actually take a lesson, with a legend, learn some good technique, and help her financial status, which might make her more likely to be more reasonable about the "Brian movie." (And everything else.)

Maybe some pro bono lawyer via the music union, could help her sort out some of her issues and steer her in a good direction...And I bet she would have a very interesting story to tell, that she could work on, as a book or movie script, with good legal direction, and not rely on ranting on social media, which only alienates people.  And, does little for her. JMHO

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« Reply #38 on: July 13, 2015, 12:40:05 PM »

Small problem with your notion is that she's been "lashing out" like this for a good fifteen years, and before her house was repossessed.

As for chaki actually paying for a Skype lesson purely to abuse her... you don't have much of a sense of humour, do you ? T'was fairly transparently a joke.
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« Reply #39 on: July 13, 2015, 12:51:20 PM »

Small problem with your notion is that she's been "lashing out" like this for a good fifteen years, and before her house was repossessed.

As for chaki actually paying for a Skype lesson purely to abuse her... you don't have much of a sense of humour, do you ? T'was fairly transparently a joke.
Andrew - it is often difficult to know what "passes for a joke" in these very "polarized" parts, these days. 

And, I'm looking only at the plain language of the post.  If I had an interest in the guitar, a Skype lesson with Carol, might be just the thing.  So long as she was a good teacher, and communicator, and not just a big brand name...

What does defy logic is this criticism of a de minimus role in this film and whatever irregularities are cropping up in terms of what sessions she actually played on. 

And, I had not followed her "fifteen years of lashing out."
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« Reply #40 on: July 13, 2015, 01:00:51 PM »

i was joking for the record, but i will probably plop down the cash one of these days so carol can teach me how to put felt behind my strings.
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« Reply #41 on: July 13, 2015, 01:05:24 PM »

Small problem with your notion is that she's been "lashing out" like this for a good fifteen years, and before her house was repossessed.

As for chaki actually paying for a Skype lesson purely to abuse her... you don't have much of a sense of humour, do you ? T'was fairly transparently a joke.
Andrew - it is often difficult to know what "passes for a joke" in these very "polarized" parts, these days.  

And, I'm looking only at the plain language of the post.  If I had an interest in the guitar, a Skype lesson with Carol, might be just the thing.  So long as she was a good teacher, and communicator, and not just a big brand name...

What does defy logic is this criticism of a de minimus role in this film and whatever irregularities are cropping up in terms of what sessions she actually played on.  

And, I had not followed her "fifteen years of lashing out."

I'm not saying this to be argumentative, fille, so don't take it that way -- but anecdotal evidence from people who have taken lessons from her, and also viewing a few youtube videos -- leads me to believe she's not a very good teacher.  Too fussy, not giving students enough time to follow what she's telling them, tendency towards impatience and belligerence, etc.  Being a good teacher doesn't require good technique as much as understanding how people learn and catering to that.

I'm not claiming to be anywhere near the player nor the experience that CK has, but I have done a session or two (including with some of the WC), and she's exactly the kind of personality/player that I do not want to learn from, or gig with.  Music is about much more than technical ability.

I think a more charitable way to look at it is this woman may be having mental issues, possibly brought on by severe stress and financial problems.  
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« Reply #42 on: July 13, 2015, 01:07:01 PM »

It's more than 15 years. "Standing In The Shadow of Motown" came out in 1989 and she started claiming credit for some of Jamerson's parts not soon after IIRC, as documented here:

http://www.bassland.net/jamerson.html#drlicks

That would mean she's been stirring the sh*t for 25 years now; I suspect her Internet feuding started as soon as she got a modem installed.

A scan on her wiki site proves she's not on Surf City but she claims otherwise:

http://wreckingcrew.tv/afmcontracts/Jan+Dean_SurfCity.pdf
« Last Edit: July 13, 2015, 01:10:10 PM by harrisonjon » Logged
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« Reply #43 on: July 13, 2015, 01:09:17 PM »

i was joking for the record, but i will probably plop down the cash one of these days so carol can teach me how to put felt behind my strings.

Watch out she doesn't use an old man to do a wrap around with the felt
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« Reply #44 on: July 13, 2015, 01:44:54 PM »

Small problem with your notion is that she's been "lashing out" like this for a good fifteen years, and before her house was repossessed.

As for chaki actually paying for a Skype lesson purely to abuse her... you don't have much of a sense of humour, do you ? T'was fairly transparently a joke.
Andrew - it is often difficult to know what "passes for a joke" in these very "polarized" parts, these days.  

And, I'm looking only at the plain language of the post.  If I had an interest in the guitar, a Skype lesson with Carol, might be just the thing.  So long as she was a good teacher, and communicator, and not just a big brand name...

What does defy logic is this criticism of a de minimus role in this film and whatever irregularities are cropping up in terms of what sessions she actually played on.  

And, I had not followed her "fifteen years of lashing out."

I'm not saying this to be argumentative, fille, so don't take it that way -- but anecdotal evidence from people who have taken lessons from her, and also viewing a few youtube videos -- leads me to believe she's not a very good teacher.  Too fussy, not giving students enough time to follow what she's telling them, tendency towards impatience and belligerence, etc.  Being a good teacher doesn't require good technique as much as understanding how people learn and catering to that.

I'm not claiming to be anywhere near the player nor the experience that CK has, but I have done a session or two (including with some of the WC), and she's exactly the kind of personality/player that I do not want to learn from, or gig with.  Music is about much more than technical ability.

I think a more charitable way to look at it is this woman may be having mental issues, possibly brought on by severe stress and financial problems.  
That's the key. Good teacher! (I'm fussy in that department!  LOL )

It is all about patience, communication and knowing your subject matter.

You did capture the likely issue, in your last sentence, and it is charitable to look that way on it.  She does seem to be struggling...for whatever reason.  Music is an art, you're correct, after you get down the technical basics.
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« Reply #45 on: July 13, 2015, 02:20:57 PM »

Carol comes across as a very negative person of Facebook. She has ranted on about the bank taking her home, music piracy (I can understand) the term Wrecking Crew, Hal Blaine..the list goes on. I don't claim to know her situation, she obviously is a vital part of rock history, but the pattern of everyone being against her has been flogged to death.

Didn't she lose a daughter to cancer or something a few, several years back?
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« Reply #46 on: July 13, 2015, 02:26:41 PM »

I actually should qualify that.  If I was on a session with Carol Kaye, I'd certainly watch her like a hawk.  But as far as taking a lesson from her - wouldn't ever do it, for reasons stated. 
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« Reply #47 on: July 13, 2015, 02:32:38 PM »

Carol comes across as a very negative person of Facebook. She has ranted on about the bank taking her home, music piracy (I can understand) the term Wrecking Crew, Hal Blaine..the list goes on. I don't claim to know her situation, she obviously is a vital part of rock history, but the pattern of everyone being against her has been flogged to death.

Didn't she lose a daughter to cancer or something a few, several years back?

Yes, she did. Terrible thing to happen to any parent.
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« Reply #48 on: July 13, 2015, 09:47:15 PM »

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« Reply #49 on: July 13, 2015, 10:29:55 PM »

wow it sure sounds like she has an Ego problem... Sad let's predict what she'll complain about next with the movie.

1. "I wasn't in it long enough."
2. "I never sat in that chair, or on that side of the room."
3. "The actresses boobs are too small (or big you choose)."
4. "I had a specific pair of underwear on, and they didn't include it in the movie."
5. "She had the wrong accent,,my accent is slightly different."
6. "The excluded me from Good Vibrations, which I played on."
7. "I was really the genius behind the music."
8. "I wrote all the songs but they act like Brian wrote them all."
9. "The Beach Boys stole all my music, I was the originator, the Queen."
10. "I am part black and they stole music from my race, along with Elvis and the Rolling Stones."
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