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Author Topic: Van Dyke Barks  (Read 69523 times)
chaki
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« Reply #375 on: June 30, 2015, 12:31:17 PM »

I tweeted with VDP yesterday about his portrayal in the film, arguing that he was portrayed as hip, intellectual and on the right side of history. He responded with a snarky "YOU DON'T THINK ADDING THAT I WROTE THE CELLOS TO GOOD VIBRATIONS WAS IMPORTANT? LITHIUM CAUSES MEMORY LOSS." I'm paraphrasing.

He deleted it but I took a screenshot.

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« Reply #376 on: June 30, 2015, 12:40:02 PM »

Sounds pretty petty in the overall scheme of things. I guess he's becoming a bitter old man.
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The Brianista Prayer

Oh Brian
Thou Art In Hawthorne,
Harmonied Be Thy name
Your Kingdom Come,
Your Steak Well Done,
On Stage As It Is In Studio,
Give Us This Day, Our Shortenin' Bread
And Forgive Us Our Bootlegs,
As We Also Have Forgiven Our Wife And Managers,
And Lead Us Not Into Kokomo,
But Deliver Us From Mike Love.
Amen.  ---hypehat
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« Reply #377 on: June 30, 2015, 12:43:32 PM »

Yah but, hey, it's twitter. It's a good place to come off snarky and bitter. The guy is great irl. I love this interview he did with the High Llamas dude.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Lei1FFjb4k

And of course, he still got his musical chops.
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« Reply #378 on: June 30, 2015, 12:55:49 PM »

I tweeted with VDP yesterday about his portrayal in the film, arguing that he was portrayed as hip, intellectual and on the right side of history. He responded with a snarky "YOU DON'T THINK ADDING THAT I WROTE THE CELLOS TO GOOD VIBRATIONS WAS IMPORTANT? LITHIUM CAUSES MEMORY LOSS." I'm paraphrasing.

He deleted it but I took a screenshot.


Bad paraphrasing. Just quote him.
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chaki
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« Reply #379 on: June 30, 2015, 01:02:22 PM »

thanks, dad.
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SBonilla
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« Reply #380 on: June 30, 2015, 01:10:10 PM »

thanks, dad.
de nada
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sea of tunes
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« Reply #381 on: June 30, 2015, 01:15:58 PM »

Is it absolutely a fact that VDP came up with 8th-note cello triplets for "Good Vibrations"?  The addition of the cellos to the mix has been attributed to Carl, Brian, Van Dyke...
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« Reply #382 on: June 30, 2015, 01:16:32 PM »

Is it absolutely a fact that VDP came up with 8th-note cello triplets for "Good Vibrations"?  The addition of the cellos to the mix has been attributed to Carl, Brian, Van Dyke...
and me! Wink
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Oh Brian
Thou Art In Hawthorne,
Harmonied Be Thy name
Your Kingdom Come,
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On Stage As It Is In Studio,
Give Us This Day, Our Shortenin' Bread
And Forgive Us Our Bootlegs,
As We Also Have Forgiven Our Wife And Managers,
And Lead Us Not Into Kokomo,
But Deliver Us From Mike Love.
Amen.  ---hypehat
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« Reply #383 on: June 30, 2015, 01:19:52 PM »

Surprised no one's mentioned today's tweet yet.

https://twitter.com/thevandykeparks/status/615562914422849537

I don't want to reignite a fight.  ("So why are you posting this?")  But that hyphen is pretty interesting.
Komera - you didn't start this information sharing.  Not your fault.  

First - "Then-brilliant Brian" - calculated to be unbridled offense to Brian's intelligence and creative ability. Every word is a bullet with him, and abuse of his literary gift.  More leaks seem to be springing on his boat.  He doesn't appear to want an open conversation but prefers to launch barbs when it suits him.  This is beneath him.

Second - SOS - "as it is supposed to be sung by Ray Charles?" What does that mean?  He certainly performed it during the 25th show in Hawaii.  Is this a direct diss to Carl, Blondie, Brian, or whomever else performed the lead?

Why these insults now? If he hasn't seen the film, he might reserve judgment until he has.  Otherwise, his opinion is uninformed.  And just not credible.

If he has a problem with credits, let him go litigate it (like everyone else) with solid proof in a court rather than whining on twitter.  Maybe he can join this board, just like Brian Wilson.   Wink

FWIW, that description is part of the YouTube video he linked, not Van Dyke's own words.  Still, I'm in no way defending him, and think he should shut up!
« Last Edit: June 30, 2015, 01:22:31 PM by GoodVibrations33 » Logged
Wirestone
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« Reply #384 on: June 30, 2015, 01:36:31 PM »

The latest ...

Van Dyke Parks ‏@thevandykeparks  19h19 hours ago
Great collaborators, Laurel & Hardy, deal with amnesia.  https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=IU7eSAw3IZs …
« Last Edit: June 30, 2015, 01:37:50 PM by Wirestone » Logged
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« Reply #385 on: June 30, 2015, 01:38:15 PM »

Not sure if this has been posted before, or not.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zRVy6HjxnYE&feature=youtu.be&t=20m58s

VDP at a lecture discussing string arrangements and using "Good Vibrations" as an example.  He mentions his suggestion about the cello.
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« Reply #386 on: June 30, 2015, 02:03:30 PM »

Hi all - no takers for what is known as "the redemptive reading", then? Fair enough! Especially if VDP hasn't actually seen the movie and this is all a rather strange and embittered twitter war about "credit". Related question - I don't remember any particular data earlier in the thread identifying which particular credit he felt robbed of, except the GV cello part. And if that's the case - and his whole reason for the "Then-genius Brian" etc stuff is indeed that a two hour movie didn't include a scene in which he was shown advising on that arrangement - then yes, I agree. WTH?

But:

Quote
I tweeted with VDP yesterday about his portrayal in the film... He responded with a snarky "YOU DON'T THINK ADDING THAT I WROTE THE CELLOS TO GOOD VIBRATIONS WAS IMPORTANT? LITHIUM CAUSES MEMORY LOSS."
sure makes it sound like he's seen the movie, and is just choosing which of his beefs are a) straight-forward enough to back-up quickly and c) can be squeezed into 140 characters.  [On a related note: the fact that Mike Love immediately loved Good Vibrations, from the time it was a single chord cluster, and collaborated on every version of the lyrics, including presumably the first set usually credited to Tony Asher, is new to me. That was an aspect of the Good Vibration compositional process that received a substantive chunk of screen time.]


And, Paul JB, a couple of comments:

Quote
You start out by saying the film was half an hour too long them spend a really long paragraph explaining that the Smile stuff was reduced to very little.
Starting out with a sarky dig (and one unrelated to the actual substance of my post) is sloppy debate, and does your argument no credit. And if you think that was a long paragraph, try reading some Dickens!  Cheesy

Quote
For the last time...this is a movie about BRIAN WILSON...not Smile or Parks.
Sure, and the conventions of the biopic mean that ellisions and conflations of real events will occur. But Smile and Parks are in it - if someone made a movie about your hometown and featured one scene of you being at your absolute worst, don't you think you'd feel misrepresented by what they chose to include and not include? That's all I'm saying here. That the feelings might be valid, if not the response.

EDIT: Just to be clear, I'm not saying that Love and Mercy made VDP look bad; that's a subjective argument I don't think is particularly worth having. I'm just saying that an individual might understandably be concerned over what is included or not included in a movie "based on a true story" - and the perceived effects of those decisions - when they were involved and are included as a part, no matter how small, of that story.

Quote
There are no myths about smile in this movie.
Okay, let's define "myths" - or rather, let's talk about facts, and the historical record. As VDP as pointed out on numerous occasions, the Brian Wilson of late '66 was at the top of his game, musically, and in total control of the studio, whatever he was like outside it. This can be borne out by listening to the session tapes, either the edited versions on the box or the longer cuts on SOT etc. He knows what he wants from the musicians and the band, and it's only in '67 that Brian starts demonstrating any inarticulacy or irritation with the Boys. So at least five months of recordings, well over a dozen tracks and several dozen sessions, show a young genius "playing the studio" like a pro - much like we got in the Pet Sounds scenes in the movie. This competence was totally replaced by confusion and unprofessional antics for the few glimpses we got of the Smile sessions. (You can see my comprehensive list of these scenes in my previous post.) So maybe there are no "myths" included, but what's presented is a far cry from the reality borne out by the only first hand record we've got, the actual session tapes.

Oh, and was there a session that was cancelled because Brian wandered the studio for two hours not liking "the vibrations"? If so, I can't recall reading about one. The last, cancelled "Dada" date maybe? Does anyone have a source for this scene?

Quote
People that want to defend this guy right now, and you are by trying to rationalize through his imagined perspective, and say things like, if they are snarky tweets, really need to stop.
See my first post, really. I'm not trying to defend the tweets - I'm really not - I'm just trying to imagine from his perspective, as you say, why VDP might rationalize posting them. Actually seeing "Love and Mercy" - if VDP has too - made it clearer to me why he might be, and I thought that might be worth posting on this thread.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2015, 03:28:53 PM by The_Holy_Bee » Logged
Paul J B
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« Reply #387 on: June 30, 2015, 03:22:42 PM »

Hi all - no takers for what is known as "the redemptive reading", then? Fair enough! Especially if VDP hasn't actually seen the movie and this is all a rather strange and embittered twitter war about "credit". Related question - I don't remember any particular data earlier in the thread identifying which particular credit he felt robbed of, except the GV cello part. And if that's the case - and his whole reason for the "Then-genius Brian" etc stuff is indeed that a two hour movie didn't include a scene in which he was shown advising on that arrangement - then yes, I agree. WTH?

But:

Quote
I tweeted with VDP yesterday about his portrayal in the film... He responded with a snarky "YOU DON'T THINK ADDING THAT I WROTE THE CELLOS TO GOOD VIBRATIONS WAS IMPORTANT? LITHIUM CAUSES MEMORY LOSS."
sure makes it sound like he's seen the movie, and is just choosing which of his beefs are a) straight-forward enough to back-up quickly and c) can be squeezed into 140 characters.  [On a related note: the fact that Mike Love immediately loved Good Vibrations, from the time it was a single chord cluster, and collaborated on every version of the lyrics, including presumably the first set usually credited to Tony Asher, is new to me. That was an aspect of the Good Vibration compositional process that received a substantive chunk of screen time.]


And, Paul JB, a couple of comments:

Quote
You start out by saying the film was half an hour too long them spend a really long paragraph explaining that the Smile stuff was reduced to very little.
Starting out with a sarky dig (and one unrelated to the actual substance of my post) is sloppy debate, and does your argument no credit. And if you think that was a long paragraph, try reading some Dickens!  Cheesy

Quote
For the last time...this is a movie about BRIAN WILSON...not Smile or Parks.
Sure, and the conventions of the biopic mean that ellisions and conflations of real events will occur. But Smile and Parks are in it - if someone made a movie about your hometown and featured one scene of you being at your absolute worst, don't you think you'd feel misrepresented by what they chose to include and not include? That's all I'm saying here. That the feelings might be valid, if not the response.

Quote
There are no myths about smile in this movie.
Okay, let's define "myths" - or rather, let's talk about facts, and the historical record. As VDP as pointed out on numerous occasions, the Brian Wilson of late '66 was at the top of his game, musically, and in total control of the studio, whatever he was like outside it. This can be borne out by listening to the session tapes, either the edited versions on the box or the longer cuts on SOT etc. He knows what he wants from the musicians and the band, and it's only in '67 that Brian starts demonstrating any inarticulacy or irritation with the Boys. So at least five months of recordings, well over a dozen tracks and several dozen sessions, show a young genius "playing the studio" like a pro - much like we got in the Pet Sounds scenes in the movie. This competence was totally replaced by confusion and unprofessional antics for the few glimpses we got of the Smile sessions. (You can see my comprehensive list of these scenes in my previous post.) So maybe there are no "myths" included, but what's presented is a far cry from the reality borne out by the only first hand record we've got, the actual session tapes.

Oh, and was there a session that was cancelled because Brian wandered the studio for two hours not liking "the vibrations"? If so, I can't recall reading about one. The last, cancelled "Dada" date maybe? Does anyone have a source for this scene?

Quote
People that want to defend this guy right now, and you are by trying to rationalize through his imagined perspective, and say things like, if they are snarky tweets, really need to stop.
See my first post, really. I'm not trying to defend the tweets - I'm really not - I'm just trying to imagine from his perspective, as you say, why VDP might rationalize posting them. Actually seeing "Love and Mercy" - if VDP has too - made it clearer to me why he might be, and I thought that might be worth posting on this thread.


Sorry, but saying the movie was too long and then complaining or trying to understand Parks view is not sloppy debate. My Grammar is sloppy that I will admit. That movie is not about Smile or Parks. That is my point to you. To elaborate on Parks and Smile would take away from lots of other scenes in the movie. It was not needed. It's about Brian and his collapse and Landy and Melinda ect. Not Carol Kaye or Parks. If you want to try and get into Park's head that's fine. I don't care to.
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« Reply #388 on: June 30, 2015, 03:23:02 PM »

Parks makes a good point in that it would not have stalled the film in any way to simply depict him at a Good Vibrations session.

But at the same time, the complaint is totally uncharacteristic of a man who says "s'not open heart surgery" when asked whether it's important who came up with the name Buffalo Springfield. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Z0fphNakvM
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« Reply #389 on: June 30, 2015, 03:42:55 PM »

Paul J B -

[/quote]

Sorry, but saying the movie was too long and then complaining or trying to understand Parks view is not sloppy debate. My Grammar is sloppy that I will admit. That movie is not about Smile or Parks. That is my point to you. To elaborate on Parks and Smile would take away from lots of other scenes in the movie. It was not needed. It's about Brian and his collapse and Landy and Melinda ect. Not Carol Kaye or Parks. If you want to try and get into Park's head that's fine. I don't care to.
[/quote]

Right, I did misunderstand your point, and I apologise. I'd say that you could have easily lost ten (five, actually) minutes of the "Pet Sounds" session stuff and moved that over to SMiLE, showing the Surf's Up backing session, for instance ("I want it to sound like jewellery") - just so the competence and the eccentricity of those sessions were represented, as well as the dramatically-expedient freak-out stuff - but that of course is entirely subjective. I do agree tough choices need to be made in any film of this kind, and I'm glad I didn't have to make them!

I think it's quite clear you don't care to "get into [Van Dyke's] head" - or at least, attempt to empathise with why he might be acting as he is. But since many posters here have been quite happy to call out, on sometimes spurious evidence, his motivations and character ("pretentious", "bitter", "total butthole", "learned genius" - btw, when has VDP ever called himself a genius? Are you calling him a genius? Are you quoting someone else?) - surely it's not only reasonable to try and present, as I said, a "redemptive reading" for his actions but, in fact, a sign of health for the Board to have counter-views expressed, respected and considered.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2015, 03:46:33 PM by The_Holy_Bee » Logged
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« Reply #390 on: June 30, 2015, 04:05:17 PM »

Haven't seen the movie yet-- does it, in any form, credit anyone with the cello idea for Good Vibes? Does the cello part receive a specific mention or attention in it?

I'll say that, just like any of us, he has a right to say "hey, what's mine is mine". However, there's two things with this:

1. Van is still oblique with his issues with Brian. This cannot be the reason why they've been estranged the last 10 yrs. He seemed to be ok with ("then-brilliant") Brian during OCA. Claiming credit for the cello triplets cannot be the reason for this crap.

2. Van Dyke had shown himself as a lyricist for Brian period. For years. Nothing more. Nothing less. This whole thing now makes no sense. Unless he speaks out and explains. Which he never does.

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« Reply #391 on: June 30, 2015, 04:18:34 PM »

As I recall, there is no explicit credit in L&M for who thought of adding cello to the GV track. There is a scene, however, in which Brian explains the rhythmic effect he's after (the triplets, essentially) to the cellists - the source of VDP's grievance? - which pretty clearly gives the credit for the idea to Brian himself. There's then a follow up scene in the control booth of Mike complaining about how long Brian is taking getting that part recorded.

Hope this helps.

EDIT: Now I think of it, there's actually a line in which Brian explains "you're the rhythm part now" or words to that effect to the clearly amused and impressed cellists.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2015, 04:26:36 PM by The_Holy_Bee » Logged
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« Reply #392 on: June 30, 2015, 04:31:42 PM »

As I recall, there is no explicit credit in L&M for who thought of adding cello to the GV track. There is a scene, however, in which Brian explains the rhythmic effect he's after (the triplets, essentially) to the cellists - the source of VDP's grievance? - which pretty clearly gives the credit for the idea to Brian himself. There's then a follow up scene in the control booth of Mike complaining about how long Brian is taking getting that part recorded.

Hope this helps.

EDIT: Now I think of it, there's actually a line in which Brian explains "you're the rhythm part now" or words to that effect to the clearly amused and impressed cellists.

All correct.  I recall Danny Hutton saying in an interview a couple of years ago that he personally watched Brian work with the cellists just as shown in the film.

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« Reply #393 on: June 30, 2015, 04:35:31 PM »

Fwiw, i too loved the movie, thought it was 30 minutes too long and thought they didnt focus on smile sessions enough.
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« Reply #394 on: June 30, 2015, 04:39:25 PM »

The plot thickens! The game is afoot! VDP linked a rather less than wholly admiring article about Brian with an accompanying comment from a tweeter who interestingly was making his first tweet and has but four followers, including VDP:

@BBC_Culture It's the myth that grates. He really represents a wrecked dream- that Beauty & Consumerism are two sides of the same nickle.
2:42pm - 9 Jun 15

Correction: James Cracknall has no followers. The account follows four, one of which is VDP. Cracknall a Song Cyclist?
« Last Edit: June 30, 2015, 04:43:42 PM by Hank Briarstem » Logged
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« Reply #395 on: June 30, 2015, 04:45:06 PM »

"Mercy, me!"
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« Reply #396 on: June 30, 2015, 04:46:38 PM »

I will say, with every tweet like that it's more difficult to read many of these links and posts as anything but gratuitously vindictive. Ah well. I'm pleased I tried, regardless.

EDIT: Actually, just read the article. Not exactly glowing, but not really damning either. Back on the fence I go.
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« Reply #397 on: June 30, 2015, 05:00:51 PM »

I will say, with every tweet like that it's more difficult to read many of these links and posts as anything but gratuitously vindictive. Ah well. I'm pleased I tried, regardless.

EDIT: Actually, just read the article. Not exactly glowing, but not really damning either. Back on the fence I go.

I believe my description of the article as "rather less than wholly admiring" is accurate - unusual given my lapses in mental prowess. Yet it is the comment made to Twitter and the source of the comment that is far more intriguing, and certainly much more telling.
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« Reply #398 on: June 30, 2015, 06:16:20 PM »

Bee. Or anyone else...

Many people have called Parks a genius including Brian I believe. I have also heard Brian call Dennis and Lindsey Buckingham a genius. Very talented people but genius no. Parks has a reputation for being a very educated, sophisticated intellectual. That is why I referred to him as the learned genius. Do you think he is behaving like an intelligent man or a horses ass? I think you know my opinion.

I'm just a guy on a message board so who cares what I think. At the same time, I don't want to come off as one of those people that just comes here to troll and rag on someone. I think the lyrics to Surfs Up are terrific. I think Parks has talent. I also think Smile fell apart largely due to Park's involvement. Yes, Parks was both good and bad for Brian's follow up to Pet Sounds. I think he and Brian had some visions in common and some that were not.

Here is the most important thing, at least to me regarding Parks. Brian is the reason I love Parks contribution to Surfs Up or anything else Smile related. Brian's voice on that piano demo from TSS sums it up . Brian took poetic obscure words from Parks and breathed life into them the likes of such I can't put into words. Brian did that with The Lonely Sea, Please Let Me Wonder, Don't Worry Baby and on and on. He took complex arrangements that he was responsible for crafting and then dusted them with the most unbelievable complex harmonies we are unlikely to ever hear again. Parks, Mike, Kaye, Carl, Blaine, David, Bruce, Denny, Alan.... We here, are familiar with these talented people because of ONE man. Brian Wilson. When I say here I mean just that. Not wrecking crew fans. Here. BRIAN lovers,  BEACH BOY lovers.

So forgive me but when Brian has just been portrayed for the world to see in a terrific film, and has just released what I and many others consider to be his finest solo album, I'm gonna be more than a little disgruntled to have to keep hearing about childish tweets from a guy no one here would know, had Brian not invited him to work on an album 50 years ago.







A
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« Reply #399 on: June 30, 2015, 06:33:50 PM »

Bee. Or anyone else...

Many people have called Parks a genius including Brian I believe. I have also heard Brian call Dennis and Lindsey Buckingham a genius. Very talented people but genius no. Parks has a reputation for being a very educated, sophisticated intellectual. That is why I referred to him as the learned genius. Do you think he is behaving like an intelligent man or a horses ass? I think you know my opinion.

I'm just a guy on a message board so who cares what I think. At the same time, I don't want to come off as one of those people that just comes here to troll and rag on someone. I think the lyrics to Surfs Up are terrific. I think Parks has talent. I also think Smile fell apart largely due to Park's involvement. Yes, Parks was both good and bad for Brian's follow up to Pet Sounds. I think he and Brian had some visions in common and some that were not.

Here is the most important thing, at least to me regarding Parks. Brian is the reason I love Parks contribution to Surfs Up or anything else Smile related. Brian's voice on that piano demo from TSS sums it up . Brian took poetic obscure words from Parks and breathed life into them the likes of such I can't put into words. Brian did that with The Lonely Sea, Please Let Me Wonder, Don't Worry Baby and on and on. He took complex arrangements that he was responsible for crafting and then dusted them with the most unbelievable complex harmonies we are unlikely to ever hear again. Parks, Mike, Kaye, Carl, Blaine, David, Bruce, Denny, Alan.... We here, are familiar with these talented people because of ONE man. Brian Wilson. When I say here I mean just that. Not wrecking crew fans. Here. BRIAN lovers,  BEACH BOY lovers.

So forgive me but when Brian has just been portrayed for the world to see in a terrific film, and has just released what I and many others consider to be his finest solo album, I'm gonna be more than a little disgruntled to have to keep hearing about childish tweets from a guy no one here would know, had Brian not invited him to work on an album 50 years ago.







A



Well said, Paul.
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