Is this for real?!

[Cam Mott]

I think calling him "one of the great lyric writers in rock history" is stretching just a bit.  Yes, he wrote beautiful lyrics to Warmth of the Sun, and he certainly knew what type of lyrics would sell, but c'mon, Brian worked with far better lyricists than Mike.  Not saying Mike was a bad lyric writer but certainly no better than a Dylan, a Lennon/McCartney, an Asher, a Parks, etc. 

As the lyric writer of some of the greatest songs of rock history, it seems far from a stretch; perhaps not to your personal taste instead.

[Daniel S.]

Oh yeah, I also agree that 'Warm Of The Sun' is psychadelic.

[Aegir]

Van Dyke Parks is overrated, for sure, but "columnated ruins domino" is the best lyric I can think of to fit that part of the song. Better than something like, "Don't you sweet baby I love you so" or "I popped the clutch in time and man I flew". The music of Surf's Up is not fit for the lyrics of I Get Around.

[I. Spaceman]

Van Dyke Parks is overrated, for sure, but "columnated ruins domino" is the best lyric I can think of to fit that part of the song. Better than something like, "Don't you sweet baby I love you so" or "I popped the clutch in time and man I flew". The music of Surf's Up is not fit for the lyrics of I Get Around.

Exactly. Brian chose the right lyricists for the right material.

[the captain]

You're reducing one of the greatest lead vocalists and lyric writers of rock history to "a couple catchy lines"??
Whatever, dude. Love is no more of an furo do burro than anyone else in the BB world. He's just honest about saying his thoughts in public. For that I respect him more than Brian Wilson, who was and is an furo do burro too. As are you, sometimes, as is me, sometimes.

I don't know what a furo do burro is.

But yeah, I don't think Love's lyrics were often that great. And as for the rest of it, I think we agree (regarding who says what and where).

[Jeff Mason]

You're reducing one of the greatest lead vocalists and lyric writers of rock history to "a couple catchy lines"??
Whatever, dude. Love is no more of an furo do burro than anyone else in the BB world. He's just honest about saying his thoughts in public. For that I respect him more than Brian Wilson, who was and is an furo do burro too. As are you, sometimes, as is me, sometimes.

I don't know what a furo do burro is.

But yeah, I don't think Love's lyrics were often that great. And as for the rest of it, I think we agree (regarding who says what and where).

furo do burro -- try typing A $ $ h * le into a post and see what it does to edit it...

[HeyJude]

Van Dyke Parks is overrated, for sure, but "columnated ruins domino" is the best lyric I can think of to fit that part of the song. Better than something like, "Don't you sweet baby I love you so" or "I popped the clutch in time and man I flew". The music of Surf's Up is not fit for the lyrics of I Get Around.

I think it was Elvis Costello who said (in the "Endless Harmony" documentary, I believe) that the words to "Surf's Up" sound good when they are sung. In other words, the alliteration and how the sounds of the words go together, as opposed to what the words mean or what they can be interpreted to mean. This is how I feel about most of VDP's lyrics. I'm not terribly interesting in dissecting potential meanings, but most of his words on those BB songs sound good when sung.

[the captain]

"Big Sur" is undisputedly a brilliant melody with brilliant harmonies, right?

Absolutely neither brilliant melody or harmonies. Very nice. Good song. But not brilliant.

[Rocker]

But I'll bet he wishes he wrote I Get Around.

Might be, but Brian wrote most of the lyrics to that song..

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

Absolutely neither brilliant melody or harmonies. Very nice. Good song. But not brilliant.

Hurrah for subjectivity!

[SG7]

He's just jealous 

[the captain]

Absolutely neither brilliant melody or harmonies. Very nice. Good song. But not brilliant.

Hurrah for subjectivity!

I really, really, really like that song. But I don't think it's brilliant. To me, brilliant would mean I'd be dazzled by some aspect of it. And there is nothing musically dazzling about it. It's simple. Very pleasant, but simple. Not brilliant.

Again, I really like it.
 
(Now is when everyone goes on about what's wrong with me, and how I'm a Brianista, or whatever other sh*t you all feel like saying. My favorite thing about this board is that no matter what side I take in any given argument, I know I'm going to get sh*t for it.)

[halleluwah]

Mike likes Kokomo...Is it REALLY that much worse than "Get You Back"?  I love Get You Back... but you never see it get trashed like Kokomo does.  Similar cheeziness, etc. just one had Brian Wilson in it so it's now off limits.

First off, yes, I do hate Getcha Back and a lot of the other crap on the 80s discs, Brian-related or not.

But second, while I think Mike is a piece of merda, I also think Brian is just as guilty of revisionist history, capitalist motivations and other self-serving actions. Who isn't? Mike is just more fun to make fun of, probably because he doesn't have a gift so obvious as Brian's. I mean, a couple of catchy lines, or writing indisputably brilliant melodies and harmonies? I know whose side I'll end up taking every time.

You're reducing one of the greatest lead vocalists and lyric writers of rock history to "a couple catchy lines"??
Whatever, dude. Love is no more of an furo do burro than anyone else in the BB world. He's just honest about saying his thoughts in public. For that I respect him more than Brian Wilson, who was and is an furo do burro too. As are you, sometimes, as is me, sometimes.

Yeah, but at least Brian has never referred to himself publicly as "Dr. Love."  And I hope you haven't either.


About Mike's lyrics, I think they're VERY hit-or-miss, and I think the misses have an edge here.  He did write some great lyrics, but he's also written a lot of crap.  And I'm not just talking about his post-70s work.  He certainly had his moments, but I think he was far too inconsistent to be placed as one of the great lyricists.  Although that could probably be said of Brian's other lyricsts as well.

[Cam Mott]

OK, but by definition the Pop songs with Love's lyrics are the greatest of the Beach Boys catalog and no other single lyricist or all other lryricist of BBs' songs combined even come close to Mike's mark I believe it is accurate to say.  If the BBs are one of the greatest Pop groups of all time and their songs are among the best Pop songs of all time and most of their best have lyrics by Mike then it seems to me he is certifiably [not subjectively] one of the greatest Pop lyricists [not to mention vocalists] of all time. 

Those of you in the minority still have rights however.

[Old Rake]

OK, but by definition the Pop songs with Love's lyrics are the greatest of the Beach Boys catalog and no other single lyricist or all other lryricist of BBs' songs combined even come close to Mike's mark I believe it is accurate to say.

I'm not sure that's at all true, Cam -- that's pure opinion! I'd say the pop songs with Tony Asher's lyrics are the greatest of the Beach Boys catalog and that's one lyricist that not only came close to Mike's mark but surpassed it by a long while. That album so perfectly captures the sound of love and loss, better than any album ever made, I think -- Mike's great at writing about certain things, and I'd never denigrete him as a lyricist, but IMO both Asher and Parks surpass him significantly in terms of creating a perfect mood.

I think the most underrated lyricist is actually Jack Reiley -- I really like a ton of his songs, and I think if you wanna talk about a lyricist that doesn't get his fair shakes, its HIM. Listen to Steamboat or Trader or any of those -- hoo boy, those are good stuff.

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

They all bring different things to the table.  I wouldn't want Fun Fun Fun written by Jack, Trader written by Van Dyke, Wonderful by Tony, or IJWMFTT by Mike.  The lyricists were perfect for the song in almost all cases, and all contribute to the monolithic power of the catalog.

[jazzfascist]

I was thinking, wasn't Mike very influenced by Chuck Berry as a lyric writer, they have the same way of using words, it seems to me. "Fun,Fun,Fun" in a way is a sort of white Chuck Berry lyric/tune. I like his lyrics, they're not very deep, but he's very inventive, when it comes to basing the lyrics on unexpected associations and making clever rhymes, and they work great in that context. In fact a lot of the lot of the early BB songs, seem to owe a lot to Berry's hip, good humoured type of lyrics, not to mention the music of course.

Søren

[I. Spaceman]

They all bring different things to the table.  I wouldn't want Fun Fun Fun written by Jack, Trader written by Van Dyke, Wonderful by Tony, or IJWMFTT by Mike.  The lyricists were perfect for the song in almost all cases, and all contribute to the monolithic power of the catalog.

Exactly. Can I hear a word for the great Roger Christian?

Everyone was influenced by Chuck's lyrics, I'd say the Mick Jagger of Satisfaction and Get Off My Cloud most of all. But Mike, definitely.

[jazzfascist]

Everyone was influenced by Chuck's lyrics, I'd say the Mick Jagger of Satisfaction and Get Off My Cloud most of all. But Mike, definitely.

Yeah you're right, it sounds like Jagger was very influenced by him too, but in a way he was more cynical and direct, still is to this day. Maybe Berry couldn't afford to be that way, I can't imagine him doing a song like "Satisfaction", even though it clearly owes to him. But with regards to BB's it's also like they transplanted Chuck Berry's attitude to their own early songs, lyrically and otherwise.

Søren

[Aegir]

I was thinking, wasn't Mike very influenced by Chuck Berry as a lyric writer, they have the same way of using words, it seems to me. "Fun,Fun,Fun" in a way is a sort of white Chuck Berry lyric/tune. I like his lyrics, they're not very deep, but he's very inventive, when it comes to basing the lyrics on unexpected associations and making clever rhymes, and they work great in that context. In fact a lot of the lot of the early BB songs, seem to owe a lot to Berry's hip, good humoured type of lyrics, not to mention the music of course.

Søren

Exactly, I remember an interview with Mike saying something about writing "syncopated Chuck Berry lyrics" or something.

[Cam Mott]

OK, but by definition the Pop songs with Love's lyrics are the greatest of the Beach Boys catalog and no other single lyricist or all other lryricist of BBs' songs combined even come close to Mike's mark I believe it is accurate to say.

I'm not sure that's at all true, Cam -- that's pure opinion!

I don't think so, I believe it is a numeric fact.

I'd say the pop songs with Tony Asher's lyrics are the greatest of the Beach Boys catalog and that's one lyricist that not only came close to Mike's mark but surpassed it by a long while. That album so perfectly captures the sound of love and loss, better than any album ever made, I think -- Mike's great at writing about certain things, and I'd never denigrete him as a lyricist, but IMO both Asher and Parks surpass him significantly in terms of creating a perfect mood.

I think the most underrated lyricist is actually Jack Reiley -- I really like a ton of his songs, and I think if you wanna talk about a lyricist that doesn't get his fair shakes, its HIM. Listen to Steamboat or Trader or any of those -- hoo boy, those are good stuff.

I won't argue with your opinion and I'm a fan of all of that [though Jack Reilly's work is some down my personal list] but still the songs with Mike's lyrics are way out in front I'm pretty sure.

[I. Spaceman]

I don't think so, I believe it is a numeric fact.

What, that Mike wrote more songs with Brian than anyone else?
And that the tunes with Mike were more successful in the charts?
Yeah, OK, that doesn't prove they were better artistically. It means they were more commercial.
But, Mike is my fave BB lyricist by a country mile.

[Cam Mott]

I don't think so, I believe it is a numeric fact.

What, that Mike wrote more songs with Brian than anyone else?
And that the tunes with Mike were more successful in the charts?
Yeah, OK, that doesn't prove they were better artistically. It means they were more commercial.
But, Mike is my fave BB lyricist by a country mile.

Yeah, it means they were more Popular.  I don't think it was because more people deemed them to be worse artistically.

[I. Spaceman]

Cam, you are well aware that because something is more accessible i.e., radio-friendy, it does not mean it is any more artistically successful. What is pleasant to people's ears on the radio is a whole other world than we are in on this board.
You think The Beach Boys are better than Miles Davis? If so, do you ascribe that to chart statistics?

[rb]

For the term, 'artistically successful', could we please substitute the term 'cool'? The former has elitist conotations with which I am uncomfortable, while the latter is vague and subjective enough for me to never have to defend its use.

Here's my take on the Wilson/Love team: while Brian's music often transcended its influnces, Mike's lyrics never came close. Still, they were pretty cool, right?