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Author Topic: Will science prove God wrong?  (Read 21181 times)
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Jeff Mason
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« Reply #25 on: May 22, 2006, 02:03:03 PM »

There pretty much is only one word in Hebrew for "Day" === "YOM".  It is both a literal day and a period of time.  Many people want you to believe, though, that because the phrase (clearly a stylistic set) "and there was evening and there was morning, day X" in Hebrew compels one to mean 24 hour days.  If this is so, how do you explain day 6 and Genesis 2?  Day six has God creating all mammals and birds, and man and woman both.  Yet Genesis 2 has Adam work in the garden, name all of the animals, realize he is lonely, fall asleep and only then have God make a woman.  This happens in less than 24 hours?  I don't think so.  Genesis 2 clearly teaches a bachelorhood that lasts longer than 24 hours, yet according to the young earth creation theory, Adam was able to do all of this and get lonely/need a helper in about 6 to 8 hours or so, one would think.  In addition, those who say that with a number,YOM means a 24 hour day, I say, the construction I list above is unique in Scripture.

It's not really worth fighting over, but it boggles my mind how Christians would rather cling to a specific interpretation and bend the world to fit it when another valid literal interpretation would fit the scientific record like a glove and not alienate skeptics.
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« Reply #26 on: May 22, 2006, 02:07:13 PM »

Someone should make an internet cartoon of the Bible so that I can follow it better. It's hard to look through my book shevles and actually choose the Bible rather than other books.

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« Reply #27 on: May 22, 2006, 02:12:11 PM »

Someone should make an internet cartoon of the Bible so that I can follow it better. It's hard to look through my book shevles and actually choose the Bible rather than other books.

http://thebackpew.com/backpew/bible_indexed.htm

http://cartoonworks.gospelcom.net/
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« Reply #28 on: May 22, 2006, 02:20:36 PM »

www.chick.com has some pretty interesting comics, even though it says Protestant murderers go to Heaven and good Catholics go to Hell.
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Reverend Joshua Sloane
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« Reply #29 on: May 22, 2006, 02:41:09 PM »

The gent that wrote that book has his own website, and you could spend hours bulldozing through his material:

http://www.reasons.org/


Great link, thanks.
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« Reply #30 on: May 22, 2006, 04:26:13 PM »

"The fool hath said in his heart there is no God"
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« Reply #31 on: May 22, 2006, 04:35:30 PM »

www.chick.com has some pretty interesting comics, even though it says Protestant murderers go to Heaven and good Catholics go to Hell.

"going to hell" or "going to heaven" is not based upon whether we as people judge a person to be a murderer or a good person.  If that was so, we'd all go to Hell right now.
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« Reply #32 on: May 22, 2006, 06:29:52 PM »

And I'd be the fodaing tour guide.
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« Reply #33 on: May 22, 2006, 06:41:31 PM »

www.chick.com has some pretty interesting comics, even though it says Protestant murderers go to Heaven and good Catholics go to Hell.

I have dealt with fans of the Chick stuff before.  I am ashamed for brethren of mine to put out dreck like that.  Terrible scholarship and lousy theology, with hate at the center.  Don't let that dye your view of Christianity.  Jesus doesn't teach that type of garbage.
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« Reply #34 on: May 22, 2006, 09:34:09 PM »

When I was a very young church goer...I was well acquainted with Chick publications...my advice...if you read them, dont be easily offended...I did like "The Sissy" and "The Bull"...good stories...but Chick always references his own material on the anti catholic stuff...he over emphasizes things he is against...

Yes, I think some of his early books are OK, but much of it has become hateful and hurtful....



PS Alberto Rivera was a real person...I saw him speak...
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« Reply #35 on: May 23, 2006, 09:21:55 PM »

Science is largely faith-based too isn't it?

Some claim the creation story manuscript in Genesis is a hymn, not meant to be "scientific" by the author.
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« Reply #36 on: May 24, 2006, 03:04:42 AM »

Science is largely faith-based too isn't it?

I have said so for a long time, though most people scoff at the notion.
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« Reply #37 on: May 24, 2006, 03:35:10 AM »

Science is largely faith-based too isn't it?

I guess you could say so. Though it's a faith based more on systematic research and  also more concretely substantiated, ideally anyway.

Søren
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« Reply #38 on: May 24, 2006, 04:16:04 AM »

I was thinking more in the way that people claim to have had experiences and understood things and witnessed things that I take on faith as science.  Is there gravity, I've never seen, felt, tasted or smelled it but I see its effects etc., etc..

I don't see the creation story and Darwin's theory of evolution as incompatable either, they fit very nicely together whether the story was meant as fact or fiction.
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« Reply #39 on: May 24, 2006, 04:43:51 AM »

Depends upon what is meant by "Darwin's theory":

If you mean that God moved over time and actively changed one species into another via billions of years according to His perfect plan, I could agree.

If you mean what scientists mean today, who say that the process alone is sufficient, and by "process" they mean purposeless random mutations over time creating diversity and life spontaneously coming into existence with no reference or place for any divine activity, then no, they can't go together. Scientists understand this.  That's why so many of them are opposed to religion, because 1) so many creationists cling to the 6 day notion and reject science and 2) the notion that science is unable to explain EVERYTHING is offensive to them.  The theory of evolution (which IS a theory, and one with some serious holes in it) assumes that there is no place for divine interaction and that the universe can be explained without it.  So all attempts to draft evolution today try to show how it all came to be without God and isn't it great that we don't need God to explain it -- maybe God is irrelevant after all!

Of course, this causes them to overlook certain things (often to the point of outright deceit): like, for instance, not providing a proven (i.e. experimentally, not hypothetically) mechanism whereby one species transforms into another.  Like not seeing macroevolution occur in eukaryotic organisms today.  Like not being able to produce any beneficial mutations, even in the lab.  Like explaining how the fossil record is full of gaps and anomalies like the Cambrian explosion which run contrary to all evolutionary predictions.  Like how biochemical reactions required for life are irreducibly complex and could not have evolved in stages but either work or don't work.  And I mean deceit when I say it: most if not all of the standard proofs shown in textbooks -- the moths on trees, the ontogeny argument, the horses argument among others -- have been discredited by more recent scientific work but are still touted as proof of evolution in high school and college textbooks.  In one case a scientist went on the record to say something like "It may not be accurate but it is easy to understand and gets the point across."  Now that is integrity, when you admit that what you teach isn't true but you do it anyway because the ends justify the means.

Sorry, while I am no crazy young earther and love and respect science, sometimes the fact that people refuse to consider valid scientific evidence against random Darwinian evolution gets under my skin.
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« Reply #40 on: May 24, 2006, 05:10:59 AM »

I was thinking more in the way that people claim to have had experiences and understood things and witnessed things that I take on faith as science.  Is there gravity, I've never seen, felt, tasted or smelled it but I see its effects etc., etc..


Well, when you see the effects then it's not really just a matter of faith anymore because you've seen it substantiated. But gravity in itself doesn't really exist, it's a concept made in an effort to try and understand some phenomena like apples falling, why we don't fly away etc. Of course it refers to some natural force or forces, but it represents more of an angle to try and understand things, it's not a sort of concrete entity in itself.  Einstein as far as I know actually did away with the law of gravity, because there were things it couldn't explain and tried to develop new concepts, that could explain the same phenomena more fully.

Søren
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« Reply #41 on: May 24, 2006, 03:05:22 PM »

Anybody who denies that god exists is a fucking idiot. Just look at the sky at the sea at the lovely pictures in such museums as the lourve, dont tell me that a heathen made those! LOL!  :D COME ON! Jesus is leading the way for us, we all have to start getting together and realise that this world is going down hill, fast! We need to get morals back in schools and in society, the mere fact that gays and sexual deviants are given respect in society is a sign that we as a society have gone astray. Wake up people! If a woman is raped, then there is a reason for that, she has obviously not led a virtuous life, im saying god punishes the bad directly but the devil sure does! A woman who is raped or receives sexual transmitted diseases then she deserves what she gets, AIDS is a sign that these people are not worthy to live. AIDS is the cleanser that god chooses to rain down upon these f*ggots and whores.

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« Reply #42 on: May 24, 2006, 03:33:12 PM »

Anybody who denies that god exists is a fodaing idiot. Just look at the sky at the sea at the lovely pictures in such museums as the lourve, dont tell me that a heathen made those! LOL!  :D COME ON! Jesus is leading the way for us, we all have to start getting together and realise that this world is going down hill, fast! We need to get morals back in schools and in society, the mere fact that gays and sexual deviants are given respect in society is a sign that we as a society have gone astray. Wake up people! If a woman is raped, then there is a reason for that, she has obviously not led a virtuous life, im saying god punishes the bad directly but the devil sure does! A woman who is raped or receives sexual transmitted diseases then she deserves what she gets, AIDS is a sign that these people are not worthy to live. AIDS is the cleanser that god chooses to rain down upon these estranhos and whores.




So, Brady Bunch or Partridge Family?
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« Reply #43 on: May 24, 2006, 03:44:07 PM »

Anybody who denies that god exists is a fodaing idiot. Just look at the sky at the sea at the lovely pictures in such museums as the lourve, dont tell me that a heathen made those! LOL!  :D COME ON! Jesus is leading the way for us, we all have to start getting together and realise that this world is going down hill, fast! We need to get morals back in schools and in society, the mere fact that gays and sexual deviants are given respect in society is a sign that we as a society have gone astray. Wake up people! If a woman is raped, then there is a reason for that, she has obviously not led a virtuous life, im saying god punishes the bad directly but the devil sure does! A woman who is raped or receives sexual transmitted diseases then she deserves what she gets, AIDS is a sign that these people are not worthy to live. AIDS is the cleanser that god chooses to rain down upon these estranhos and whores.




So, Brady Bunch or Partridge Family?
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Reverend Joshua Sloane
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« Reply #44 on: May 24, 2006, 04:14:00 PM »

Second username?

If you're a new member....er....leave?
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Did it ever occur to you, Cable, how wise and bountiful God was to put breasts on a woman? Just the right number in just the right place. Did you ever notice that, Cable?
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« Reply #45 on: May 24, 2006, 04:29:51 PM »

Why? He fits right in!
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« Reply #46 on: May 24, 2006, 04:30:42 PM »

Chuck/Billy/Amosario, can we check to see if someone is playing tricks via IP address or something? This is pretty obnoxious.
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« Reply #47 on: May 24, 2006, 05:46:37 PM »

Well, when you see the effects then it's not really just a matter of faith anymore because you've seen it substantiated. But gravity in itself doesn't really exist, it's a concept made in an effort to try and understand some phenomena like apples falling, why we don't fly away etc. Of course it refers to some natural force or forces, but it represents more of an angle to try and understand things, it's not a sort of concrete entity in itself.  Einstein as far as I know actually did away with the law of gravity, because there were things it couldn't explain and tried to develop new concepts, that could explain the same phenomena more fully.

Faith in action imo.

I'm not saying it is a bad thing, I love science, I'm just pointing out what I see as a matter of faith and the various concepts and theories and dogmas and traditions in either don't change the absolute imo.  Or something like that.
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« Reply #48 on: May 25, 2006, 02:40:59 PM »

Well, when you see the effects then it's not really just a matter of faith anymore because you've seen it substantiated. But gravity in itself doesn't really exist, it's a concept made in an effort to try and understand some phenomena like apples falling, why we don't fly away etc. Of course it refers to some natural force or forces, but it represents more of an angle to try and understand things, it's not a sort of concrete entity in itself.  Einstein as far as I know actually did away with the law of gravity, because there were things it couldn't explain and tried to develop new concepts, that could explain the same phenomena more fully.

Faith in action imo.

Yeah, I wasn't really arguing with that.

Søren
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« Reply #49 on: May 26, 2006, 10:51:11 AM »

Anybody who denies that god exists is a fucking idiot. Just look at the sky at the sea at the lovely pictures in such museums as the lourve, dont tell me that a heathen made those! LOL!  :D COME ON! Jesus is leading the way for us, we all have to start getting together and realise that this world is going down hill, fast! We need to get morals back in schools and in society, the mere fact that gays and sexual deviants are given respect in society is a sign that we as a society have gone astray. Wake up people! If a woman is raped, then there is a reason for that, she has obviously not led a virtuous life, im saying god punishes the bad directly but the devil sure does! A woman who is raped or receives sexual transmitted diseases then she deserves what she gets, AIDS is a sign that these people are not worthy to live. AIDS is the cleanser that god chooses to rain down upon these f*ggots and whores.

Goodbye.
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