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Author Topic: Will science prove God wrong?  (Read 21582 times)
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Reverend Joshua Sloane
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« on: May 20, 2006, 04:09:00 PM »

I'll get back to you guys in a few minutes when I'm done reading this, but for now:

Will Science ever prove what happens after death to the human? Will it prove an existance of God? Could it possibly bring the world into one perfect union through astonishing finds?
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Charles LePage @ ComicList
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« Reply #1 on: May 20, 2006, 04:23:16 PM »

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Will Science ever prove what happens after death to the human?


It will not convince those who are unwilling to accept the evidence currently provided.

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Will it prove an existence of God?

It will not convince those who are unwilling to accept the evidence currently provided.

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Could it possibly bring the world into one perfect union through astonishing finds?

It will not provide a substitute for God.
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Reverend Joshua Sloane
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« Reply #2 on: May 20, 2006, 04:27:26 PM »

It will not convince those who are unwilling to accept the evidence currently provided.
Quote

What evidence are you speaking of?



Quote
It will not convince those who are unwilling to accept the evidence currently provided.
Quote

Again, could you link up a brotha?



Quote
It will not provide a substitute for God.

I meant, if Science showed the world, with absolute fact, what really is going on, could it bring the world close in a beautiful togetherness?
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Reverend Joshua Sloane
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« Reply #3 on: May 20, 2006, 04:27:59 PM »

Man, I cannot quote properly!  :D
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« Reply #4 on: May 20, 2006, 04:31:45 PM »

Again, could you link up a brotha?

http://etext.lib.virginia.edu/kjv.browse.html
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Reverend Joshua Sloane
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« Reply #5 on: May 20, 2006, 04:36:46 PM »

I can write words on paper too.

It's everyone elses choice to wonder if my word is The word, or if it is just a word.

I don't believe the Bible is proof.
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I. Spaceman
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« Reply #6 on: May 20, 2006, 04:45:25 PM »

Look outside at the sunset. That's proof.
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Reverend Joshua Sloane
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« Reply #7 on: May 20, 2006, 04:47:31 PM »

That's just a vague answer to my questions.

Of course a sunset is beautiful. Lots of things are beautiful. But why does beauty, our conception of beauty, have to be linked to a God?
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Did it ever occur to you, Cable, how wise and bountiful God was to put breasts on a woman? Just the right number in just the right place. Did you ever notice that, Cable?
Reverend Joshua Sloane
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« Reply #8 on: May 20, 2006, 04:56:05 PM »

http://www.geocities.com/bobmelzer/gc10cx.html

I know it's unfit to quote George Carlin in spiritual crisis but -- eh, he makes me chuckle.
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Reverend Joshua Sloane
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« Reply #9 on: May 20, 2006, 05:11:11 PM »

To go with Ian's example -- If I were to accept any supreme being into my life, it'd definitely be just an all prominent being. Something that just is. We just are. No silly stories, no angels, no goblins, just everything as one. I've been trying for so long to "get into God" but he just won't let me in the club. I cannot connect, no matter how hard I try, no matter what emotional state I wind up in.
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Did it ever occur to you, Cable, how wise and bountiful God was to put breasts on a woman? Just the right number in just the right place. Did you ever notice that, Cable?
Reverend Joshua Sloane
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« Reply #10 on: May 20, 2006, 05:52:52 PM »

http://freethought.homestead.com/index.html
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« Reply #11 on: May 20, 2006, 06:21:41 PM »

Will Science ever prove what happens after death to the human? Will it prove an existance of God? Could it possibly bring the world into one perfect union through astonishing finds?

No.
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Reverend Joshua Sloane
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« Reply #12 on: May 20, 2006, 06:23:15 PM »

C'mon, Luthe!
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« Reply #13 on: May 20, 2006, 08:50:46 PM »

Look outside at the sunset. That's proof.

not proof enough...
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« Reply #14 on: May 20, 2006, 09:54:53 PM »

Science by definition is not able to provide direct evidence for God.  If God is transcendent and beyond the universe, there will never be direct scientific evidence.  By definition, science is a method of examining the universe in its physical and material manifestataions.God by definition exists beyond it.  Now there will be plenty of indirect indications that taken as a whole may cause someone to believe.  If you study modern astrophysics, there are a TON of these.  More and more astrophysics is pointing to a personal deity in an indirect way.  The Big Bang makes little sense without a God of some kind, as a short example.  But proof?  By definition, no, never.

However, science will never prove God wrong, or the Bible, IF IN FACT God is as the Bible describes.  We may not understand at that moment how to make it all work together, but if God made the universe and made the Bible, they will be consistent.
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« Reply #15 on: May 21, 2006, 09:09:30 AM »

The fact that simple man is able to make any scientific conclussions and laws using simply the world around him has to make you wonder whether or not a supreme being created us, giving us these tools.  Like, the discovery of Helium through something as unlikely as a solar eclipse for example.
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« Reply #16 on: May 21, 2006, 09:15:08 AM »

I can find holes in both the atheism arguments and the arguments claiming a personal God and all that. I can stand outside on a day like today, wrapped up in the warmth of the day and the beauty of all the colors -- but how do I know that's the work of God and not just myself being accustomed to enjoy those colors, that heat, etc?  I find it impossibly hard to believe in what I would call ridiculous concepts like Heaven and Hell. The universe is too massive for such little things in our lives to matter one bit. That thought leads me to the, 'all alone in the universe' position. But there, on that thought, I think well perhaps we are the only form of life in our galaxy for that very reason. Perhaps that points to God, putting life on this planet. Of course if they start discovering life on other planets of any kind, people will be doing a lot of re-thinking.

I cannot find it anything but petty to think that our moral system as humans will be judged at the end of our lives. That anything we do counts towards any goal but ultimate death. I could run out in front of a car right now, get killed, and that'd be it. My family would lose a member, the car driver would have to get his car fixed, etc. It seems religion, every single religion, would be the opposite of what God would want, if he ever wanted anything. Why is it that we have to please this God? The creator of all we know in the universe! Why must he demand we follow his words? Religion is used as an obediance trick for a lot of people when growing up. It's hardly any different than sending the dog away to get potty trained. Now, I'm not incriminating anyone here with this phrase, but, there are just so many people who are under blind faith. They haven't given their own faith any serious thought, only followed what they were told to do. These people should be yanked from their homes and have a bucket of cold water splashed over their faces. If they come out of that with their faith as strong as ever, good for them. If they suddenly realise that they've been led astray by their parents, good for them.
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« Reply #17 on: May 21, 2006, 09:58:58 AM »

Mr. Fogg, if you were to read your own words at a distance, you might be surprised to find that there is a significant amount of confidence in your own thinking and reasoning.  So much so that you have been able to map out what an infinite and transcendent God is like and what He should do without any reference to Him in the real world at all.  I am being a bit sarcastic, but I have a point.  People say what God should be like and base it on their own ideas or preferences.  I can try to do the same thing with my wife, but by saying "She should be X" doesn't make her so.  There are some buried assumptions in there:  Either God is not there, or if He is, He is so irrelevant that I can think anything I want about Him and it doesn't matter. If God were to exist, He shouldn't care about morals because, well, He just shouldn't.  I should be allowed to do anything I want.

All well and good.  But, you see, just because you have been taught without thinking certain assumptions by the culture, just as you say that religious folk are by their parents, doesn't make those assumptions correct.  You have been taught that only empirically provable entities are real, that any existence beyond those is unknowable and we build our reality in that realm by societal contracts and arrangements.  You have never even heard (in this culture) the possibility that there IS an absolute that exists, that it is the frame of reference for all of reality, that if this absolute exists that it might specify a set of boundaries that may or may not coincide with what I want or expect that boundary to be.  It is so foreign that many people just flat out can't conceive of it.

But think for a second.  If God were to exist and have relevance for our lives, He might well have personality and character, and specify what should and should not happen in His moral ways (while still granting the freedom to act for or against that code).  And maybe that code is not arbitrary but rather an extension of His own nature and character.  And as creator, He would have absolute rights over His creation, whether they liked it or not.  If He is evil, this is a horrid situation for the creation.  But if He is good, there is hope.

Rather than trying to prove that God exists, try imagining what it would be like if He did exist and He was Other, Numinous, Awesome and fearful -- and He knew your every action and had the right to judge you.  Then after that read the Gospel of John and ponder why Jesus came to earth.  Not saying you will agree, but it might give you some empathy for those of us who believe (without blind faith, thank you very much....).
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Reverend Joshua Sloane
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« Reply #18 on: May 21, 2006, 10:11:22 AM »

To stray away from the negativity for a little bit:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=ue3abUbFW14&search=Simpsons%20

^ Is GREAT. Very funny.

........

Jeff, I appreciate your points very much. Check out that video if you like the Simpsons.
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Did it ever occur to you, Cable, how wise and bountiful God was to put breasts on a woman? Just the right number in just the right place. Did you ever notice that, Cable?
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« Reply #19 on: May 21, 2006, 10:32:47 AM »

http://www.atheistempire.com/mm_dl/video/The%20Simpsons%20-%20Homer%20Proves%20There%20is%20No%20God.mpg

Here's another funny Simpsons clip dealing with God.

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« Reply #20 on: May 21, 2006, 10:42:05 PM »

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but hasn't science already proven the Bible wrong? I mean, most of Genesis doesn't fit in with what scientists have determined is the history of Earth.
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« Reply #21 on: May 22, 2006, 04:07:48 AM »

No, science contradicts most of one particular, overly literal interpretation of Genesis.  Actually, Genesis properly read is in excellent harmony with science.  The key is to be willing to make two shifts of perspective:

1) The words "Day", "Evening" and "Morning" can all refer in Hebrew to indefinite periods of time.

2) Genesis 1 is written from the perspective of a viewer on the surface of the earth watching the changes of 5 billion years of change on earth (that's why, for instance, light is seen before the sun, because the cloud cover obscured the sun for millions of years).

For more information on such an interpretation give this book a read:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1576832309/sr=8-1/qid=1148295978/ref=pd_bbs_1/002-2510325-9760015?%5Fencoding=UTF8

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Reverend Joshua Sloane
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« Reply #22 on: May 22, 2006, 12:06:08 PM »

Jeff, I have great respect for your thoughts and opinions on this subject. As it's obvious that you're not simply a misguided fool, and are comfortably absolute in your stance, I'd like to know more about the link between the Bible and science. I can't afford the book right now so I'm wondering if you know of any websites which go in depth into the same topic? If I could somehow manage to bring faith into my life, (simply ignoring all of my doubts will only hinder it in the long run) it'd make a great change for the better of me.
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« Reply #23 on: May 22, 2006, 12:27:15 PM »

The gent that wrote that book has his own website, and you could spend hours bulldozing through his material:

http://www.reasons.org/

FYI -- he is an astrophysicist first and a theologian second, so his work is all as scientific as the method allows.  He is also unapologetically "Old earth" creationist (as am I), which means that the earth was created over 5 billion years instead of 6 days in his thinking.  This can be extremely controversial in Christian circles by people who hold certain views of hermeneutics (which I would oppose).  I can't imagine that there would be many questions you would have that aren't addressed on this website.  Mr. Ross has a firm conviction that accurate and unbiased science and solid biblical interpretation and application will never contradict due to the character of the GOd who made both the Bible and the laws of the universe.

Anyone who thinks that science and the Scripture cannot co-exist or that one contradicts the other should read a good dose of articles from this website.
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« Reply #24 on: May 22, 2006, 01:39:20 PM »


1) The words "Day", "Evening" and "Morning" can all refer in Hebrew to indefinite periods of time.


Jeff, I don't want to get too much into this debate just now, but I do have a question about the above. I've been told before the exact opposite by Protestant clergy (specifically, both ELS and Missouri Synod Lutherans) who would have to be considered literalists. They have told me that while there ARE words both specific for a 24-hour day, etc., and a less specific period of time, the ones found in the oldest existing texts are indeed the ones for a 24-hour day. Are you sure of the above, specifically that the words used most often are the ones that are less specific?
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