Was "15 Big Ones" poorly mixed? Would a better mix signficantly improve it?

[phirnis]

Brian himself seems to really love it. He named it his favourite several times (I know he even named So Tough once but 15BO seems to come up quite often actually). He probably felt around the time that he was taken very seriously in his role as the group's producer. Also, part of what he likes about it could be that he did breathe some new life into some of the music of his youth.

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

For me, 15 BO is All Summer Long '76, and KTSA is All Summer Long '80. Just light fun, without the depth of a Today!

For me All Summer Long is the carefree soundtrack to a young man`s summer vacation.

15 Big Ones is the summer of a fat, unemployed guy who is having marital troubles and is looking back nostalgically because life hasn`t turned out how he planned.

KTSA is the summer a few years later when said fellow has divorced, been forced to move into his parents` basement and spends his time drinking excessively and masturbating furiously over pictures from his high school yearbook.

Damn. It's harsh, but true. That's what's so upsetting to me about their career. The fans wanted the hits and you gotta deliver. But it is comes off as desperate old men trying to relive the glory days squeezing into their letter jackets that no longer fit and calling the old High School flames to find out they're unhappily married with 5 kids on welfare.

[Moon Dawg]

15 Big Ones is near perfect and was a great success. There are certain Saturdays when it continues to bring the right mood for me.  It was Beach Boys Party a decade later…with a circus as metaphorical scene.  Rock and Roll Music was the ringmaster’s opening gambit.  Palisades Park was the circus-theme vamp.  Just Once in My Life was a parade of elephants.  Suzy Cincinnati was a bunch of clowns careening in little cars.  And so on and so on.  15BO was messy around all the edges, and inside too.  It was perfect for the time.  It sold like crazy.  Brian Wilson is a genius.

  15 BIG ONES can frustrate at times, but I like your thinking here!

[halblaineisgood]

.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

I think 15 Big Ones is a damn fine little album.

The slide into goofiness was inevitable and that side of the band was always there anyhow.....

I know the making of the album was an apparent nightmare, but it sounds like a great time to me. I personally love to hear the older, a bit more ragged "Boys" tearing through all those oldies, and the original material never fails to bring a smile to my face.... I find it much easier and enjoyable to accept these guys are who they were/are rather than endlessly pining for what might have been.... By the time they released 15BO's they'd previously gifted us with Holland, my favorite album ever by anyone, so, all is happily forgiven.

[Pablo.]

Am I the only one who likes to play the cd twofer starting at track 15 (Just once in my life, where the raspy voices really work) and following it with Love You?

The best of 15 Big ones is the ARP Strings / Moog bass work of Brian (often in tandem with an electric bass), some quirky and still inventive arrangements and most of the originals. The worst: a mix sometimes too slick, some bad singing, a couple of lifeless versions (P. Park/ Talk to me). Anyway, the groundbreaking keyboard work of Brian is much better appreciated on the less compromised and wackier Love You. And the vocal intro to Everyone's in love with you (arranged by Billy Hinsche, IIRC) is an unprofessional steal from A Whiter shade of pale

Considering the kind of work that Dennis/Carl had to offer at the time (That Newsweek '76 article put it very clearly). A hit in the day, but a misfire in the long run. The alt mixes on bootlegs doesn't make it better

[Bean Bag]

For me All Summer Long is the carefree soundtrack to a young man`s summer vacation.

15 Big Ones is the summer of a fat, unemployed guy who is having marital troubles and is looking back nostalgically because life hasn`t turned out how he planned.

KTSA is the summer a few years later when said fellow has divorced, been forced to move into his parents` basement and spends his time drinking excessively and masturbating furiously over pictures from his high school yearbook.

Wow. 

[Bean Bag]

For me, 15 BO is All Summer Long '76, and KTSA is All Summer Long '80. Just light fun, without the depth of a Today!

For me All Summer Long is the carefree soundtrack to a young man`s summer vacation.

15 Big Ones is the summer of a fat, unemployed guy who is having marital troubles and is looking back nostalgically because life hasn`t turned out how he planned.

KTSA is the summer a few years later when said fellow has divorced, been forced to move into his parents` basement and spends his time drinking excessively and masturbating furiously over pictures from his high school yearbook.

Damn. It's harsh, but true. That's what's so upsetting to me about their career. The fans wanted the hits and you gotta deliver. But it is comes off as desperate old men trying to relive the glory days squeezing into their letter jackets that no longer fit and calling the old High School flames to find out they're unhappily married with 5 kids on welfare.

But, how well does it capture that?  That's all that matters, really.

A beautiful photograph need not be of a flower in bloom.

[Nicko1234]

For me, 15 BO is All Summer Long '76, and KTSA is All Summer Long '80. Just light fun, without the depth of a Today!

For me All Summer Long is the carefree soundtrack to a young man`s summer vacation.

15 Big Ones is the summer of a fat, unemployed guy who is having marital troubles and is looking back nostalgically because life hasn`t turned out how he planned.

KTSA is the summer a few years later when said fellow has divorced, been forced to move into his parents` basement and spends his time drinking excessively and masturbating furiously over pictures from his high school yearbook.

Damn. It's harsh, but true. That's what's so upsetting to me about their career. The fans wanted the hits and you gotta deliver. But it is comes off as desperate old men trying to relive the glory days squeezing into their letter jackets that no longer fit and calling the old High School flames to find out they're unhappily married with 5 kids on welfare.

But, how well does it capture that?  That's all that matters, really.

A beautiful photograph need not be of a flower in bloom.

You could argue it captures that well. By that token though you could also argue that Summer in Paradise captures beautifully the image of an old man, colostomy bag on hip, scouring the beach for lady lovelies offering to display his cutlery collection to anyone who will grant him sexual favours. 

[halblaineisgood]

.

[adamghost]

Alan Boyd has criticized the mix on 15BO many times.  I think it's one of the things that led him and Mark to take another crack at HTPY.

The thing about not being able to improve a bad song with a good mix -- you know, as a songwriter, it took me a long time to understand that when people say "this or that is a great song" they really are saying, without realizing it, that it's a record that makes sounds they like.  The art of songwriting and the art of production and execution are not the same, but I have found that the old maxim "it's all about the song" is not really true.  Rather, it's all about how you develop and present what you write.  If you are starting with a good idea and the production and arrangement respect and enhance that idea, you are good to go.  If you take that good idea and go down the wrong road, then your great idea won't connect.  Even with an acoustic-only presentation, try listening to Paul Simon singing one of his songs and then go listen to the karaoke guy down the street do it, and you'll see what I mean.  A bad execution can make a good song seem bad; a good execution can bring out the potential in a mediocre idea and what might be flat-out bad with one approach would be quirky and interesting another way.

I myself find that on the rare occasions I bust out a BBs album for other than work, it's 15BO a lot of the time because I just always forget it exists.  I always find it kind of an enjoyable listen because it's this weird hybrid of LOVE YOU with a veneer of attempted commerciality over it.  It's just such an odd and thus fascinating artifact.

I don't think it's that GREAT, mind you.  But it still intrigues me.

[TimeToGetAlone]

The thing about not being able to improve a bad song with a good mix -- you know, as a songwriter, it took me a long time to understand that when people say "this or that is a great song" they really are saying, without realizing it, that it's a record that makes sounds they like.  The art of songwriting and the art of production and execution are not the same, but I have found that the old maxim "it's all about the song" is not really true.  Rather, it's all about how you develop and present what you write.  If you are starting with a good idea and the production and arrangement respect and enhance that idea, you are good to go.  If you take that good idea and go down the wrong road, then your great idea won't connect.  Even with an acoustic-only presentation, try listening to Paul Simon singing one of his songs and then go listen to the karaoke guy down the street do it, and you'll see what I mean.  A bad execution can make a good song seem bad; a good execution can bring out the potential in a mediocre idea and what might be flat-out bad with one approach would be quirky and interesting another way.

I completely agree with this and it's an argument I don't see nearly enough.

Put any Beach Boys classic in a contemporary top 40 sheen, and you can be sure I'll dislike it.  Conversely, I'm sure a circa-1966 Brian Wilson could have pulled off some of my more maligned tracks of all-time.  I'm at the point where, although a song being strong compositionally can still separate itself from others, it's really the execution that makes or breaks any recording to my ears.

[kookadams]

Holland was the last orig BBs album with all new material that was a group effort BECAUSE- 15 Big Ones was 2/3 covers, Love You was all Brian, MIU was a mix of previously recorded songs and re-worked xmas songs, the Light Album and KTSA were previously recorded songs... right?

[bluesno1fann]

Whats with all the negativity toward 15 big ones? It was a great album, their biggest selling studio album in the 70s and they were label mates w the Ramones in 76-7!

It was an awful album, there's a reason why there's a lot of negativity against it. The fact that it was their biggest selling album of the 70's is irrelevant, sales does not equal greatness. Literally every other album they made in the 70's is better than 15 Big Ones.

[Mikie]

Alan Boyd has criticized the mix on 15BO many times.  I think it's one of the things that led him and Mark to take another crack at HTPY.

All they gotta do is the same thing they did to the alternate "Rock & Roll Music", released on Made In California. Push all the faders up!!

[kookadams]

Whats with all the negativity toward 15 big ones? It was a great album, their biggest selling studio album in the 70s and they were label mates w the Ramones in 76-7!

It was an awful album, there's a reason why there's a lot of negativity against it. The fact that it was their biggest selling album of the 70's is irrelevant, sales does not equal greatness. Literally every other album they made in the 70's is better than 15 Big Ones.

Ive never listened to 15 big ones and thought "this album sucks", and considering how awful music in the 70s was in general its a damn good album. Nostalgia and 50s/early 60s rockNroll was/is the greatest music the world has ever seen, so who cares that after a 3yr absence the Beach Boys paid homage? how is that a bad thing? EVERY beach boys album from surfin USA thru love you is amazing to my ears, even with the alleged "filler" tracks.

[bluesno1fann]

Whats with all the negativity toward 15 big ones? It was a great album, their biggest selling studio album in the 70s and they were label mates w the Ramones in 76-7!

It was an awful album, there's a reason why there's a lot of negativity against it. The fact that it was their biggest selling album of the 70's is irrelevant, sales does not equal greatness. Literally every other album they made in the 70's is better than 15 Big Ones.

Ive never listened to 15 big ones and thought "this album sucks", and considering how awful music in the 70s was in general its a damn good album. Nostalgia and 50s/early 60s rockNroll was/is the greatest music the world has ever seen, so who cares that after a 3yr absence the Beach Boys paid homage? how is that a bad thing? EVERY beach boys album from surfin USA thru love you is amazing to my ears, even with the alleged "filler" tracks.

What's wrong with 70's music in general? At least compared to what came after, 70's music is awesome!
As AGD said:

Poorly mixed, poorly conceived, poorly executed. Three strikes, yer out !

[Shane]

15 Big Ones and Love You (and Adult Child) are cut from the same "cloth."

I think... this cloth might be the LAST of the truly innovative and original output by the "genius" of Brian Wilson.  The last era where we could get something new and inventive out of Brian Wilson.  Something you would NEVER get from anybody else.

At some point in the 80s, I think, he's forever different.  Musically.  As if he no longer uses music to sort through his world, ideas, inventions and feelings.  Various cocktails of medication do the heavy lifting from here on out.  And if he does use and need music -- he's not tinkering with it.  It's rushed and familiar.  The quirks are fried.  Reflecting who he is today, I assume.  A reflex.  Sensitive but rushed.  Rushed out of the deep end -- never in the deep end -- a quick dip into the shallows for the familiar applause.

Even though there are many covers on 15BO, I still hear a free Brian Wilson.  Music and arrangements that ONLY the mind of Brian Wilson would conjure.  Covers -- but all originals.  Swirling in fear, desperation, joy and enthusiasm.  A fellow traveler, still.  And a damn interesting one.

There were many mini-moments that followed this era -- a track here and there -- but pretty much everything since 15BOs and Love You comes off as watered down to me.  Manufactured.  Either by Landy or the prescribed "normal" pills, I suppose.  Regardless of what you may think of 15 Big'Uns... since this era, most of Brian's work just feels shallow and rounded -- eased and stripped of innovation.  Recycled and rolling down the assembly line.  

I think this really sums things up perfectly.  A thing to keep in mind: Brian is being treated rather successfully for his mental illness now, certainly more successfully than in past decades.  That is a good thing for Brian himself.  But... so much great art in this world has been born out of the mind of an untreated, depressed mentally ill person.  I've read about situations where a mentally ill artist has refused to be treated for fear of losing their creative edge.  Of course Brian has produced some great stuff since 1976, but "innovative" and "free" would probably not be the word to describe it.

Unless we're talking about "Smart Girls" or something of that caliber.   

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

Summer In Paradise is the soundtrack to being dead. Dead to the world and the universe. The sound of insane. It captures perfectly the moral weaknesses of Carl Wilson and the group as a whole , which is what I think they were going for. 5/5

Damn, you guys are brutal!

NOTHING created by ANY of The Beach Boys alone or as a group could ever be as bad is described above (and beyond) ..... In fact, I'd happily take Looking Back With Love, KTSA, and Summer In Paradise any day over many other bands/artist's complete catalog!

[Bean Bag]

But, how well does it capture that?  That's all that matters, really.

A beautiful photograph need not be of a flower in bloom.

You could argue it captures that well. By that token though you could also argue that Summer in Paradise captures beautifully the image of an old man, colostomy bag on hip, scouring the beach for lady lovelies offering to display his cutlery collection to anyone who will grant him sexual favours.  

Right... you could argue that, Nicko.  This is why I've been unable to regulate myself -- musically.  I don't know what's good and bad anymore!

Seriously.  It's like I've received an artist/musical lobotomy.  (I'm hearing... Shortenin' Bread!)  Quite liberating, frankly.  The truth, being something like "it's whatever one likes."  Whatever moves you.  Basically, Pinder's point above -- I'd take all of the Beach Boys stuff over most other artist's best.  Cuz we're moved by the Beach Boys saga.

But it's also about whether you can articulate a convincing case for liking something really.  For me Bummer in Paradise, is decent.  Cuz it chronicles a once great band's continued trajectory through our space and time.  Downward, yes.  But here, they're trying to (somewhat desperately -- but also kind of in a cocky and cheesy-slick way) do what they feel they've always done.  It's shallow, limp and in no way their best music... but it's a fitting Polaroid in the scrapbook that gives one good vibes and a few chuckles.

Yes, chuckles.  For fans only.  

[kookadams]

Yeah Summer In Paradise is far from the best BBs album but its still better than most albums by most artists. The only other band I can think of with an extensive output of great music is the Ramones; with that being said the best BBs being up to 77 and the Ramones best starting in 77 and going thru 84... as far as great music after that, there was wasnt much in the late 80s/early 90s, then came a great band from new hampshire: the Queers! great albums in the mid 90s up to the present and the great dutch band the Travoltas, who started putting out albums in the late 90s, and ALL those bands came from the Beach Boys!! EVERY great band is descended from them.  Several bands that might be on the more obscure side being not so well known in the mainstream...
I remember when Summer In Paradise came out, it may have that cheesy 90s sound but thats the kinda sh*t that was popular then and lets face it- SIP was/is a Mike Love/Terry Melcher album minus the covers and re-do's.

[alf wiedersehen]

Yeah Summer In Paradise is far from the best BBs album but its still better than most albums by most artists.

That is just unbelievably wrong.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

Yeah Summer In Paradise is far from the best BBs album but its still better than most albums by most artists.

That is just unbelievably wrong.

For just about any dinosaur band circa 1992, Summer In Paradise is pretty typical of that sort of group in that era...... People hate on most everything most "classic" bands were doing right then.... The Division Bell came out a couple years later: lots of hate for that one ..... Sure, Neil Young put out Harvest Moon in 92, but there's no lack of hate for most of what he'd been doing the entire 10 years prior (excluding Ragged Glory and, to an extent, Freedom) ...

[bringahorseinhere?]

I love 'Summer in Paradise'!!!

I mean, really!

it's not like any other BB album...... remnants of 'still cruisin' (the newer tracks)

I loved it immediately when I heard it.....

it's like 'love you' in reverse.......

Yin and Yang ......  put both albums together, you get 'The Beach Boys'. 


RickB

[RangeRoverA1]

I love 'Summer in Paradise'!!!

I mean, really!

Dig your positivity, Mr. Bartlett. Not the worst album ever like most make it out to be. At all.