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677673 Posts in 27357 Topics by 4046 Members - Latest Member: reecemorgan November 30, 2022, 08:13:15 AM
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101  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Murry's eight page letter on: October 29, 2009, 11:30:11 PM
Is there any chance someone would have the patience to save/screen cap and upload the pages? I'm not using a computer, so I can't download the software needed to view it. Sounds interesting, though.

I'm very patient  LOL

There you go:

Thanks so much Day Tripper, Sloop, and everyone else who made this staggering document available.


I've always found the "Rhonda" session meltdown sort of pathetic, and empathized with Murry on that one night as a sad figure who had lost his manhood.  This is another matter.  This is truly malevolent. This is pathological. Besides the lethal cocktail of illnesses and disorders that I'll leave to the more qualified analysts- narcissism? paranoia?- it's just clear and unmistakable emotional abuse of every kind, and an unintended admission to all kinds of past guilt. What an insight into what the Wilson brothers really came from.  

I have to concur completely with claymcc and Andrew here. Murry was a failed cult leader.

And Audree is always tagged as an enabler...someone who stood by and did nothing to save her sons.  Here Murry has her as just another traitor in his personal jihad against everyone else.

This is, to me, final and conclusive proof that the Wilson brothers were victims of serious childhood abuse.

I think this was probably just one of many, many lapses into an episode of severe depression, probably an extension of the (obviously) life-changing moment (and well-documented severe depression episode) when he was fired by his sons, and clearly at the end he's still looking for a reckoning from that.  This one just happened to be documented for us.  And this wasn't Murry every day of the week. But ignore that- whether or not he actually sent it, whether or not he would have said all these things the day before or the day after, whether or not be actually did try to convene a meeting disbanding the Beach Boys in 1965 (!!!!!) because they wouldn't let him manage them, or pressed his barely veiled blackmail threats into the open, this is the real Murry, right here. This is fallout from the nuclear waste that was inside, eating away, all the time. The world treated him wrong. No one understood him or his genius.  He had been cheated.  "How can I help them if they won't listen to an intelligent man?"

You know what rant this reminds me of?  I really hate to say this- (get ready with the tired Internet gag term about the inevitability of bringing up the Nazis)- it sounds like the final Political Testament Hitler dictated in the bunker right before he shot himself. Justifying his mistakes, obfuscating, blaming everyone else, fatalistic; calling everyone else a traitor, predicting the bleak future of a world without himself, and trying desperately to scorch the earth he left behind. In other words, the ravings of a disordered mind that can only see the world as it serves him to see it, can only see others as they fit into his world. What he did to Dave Marks was right, because he did it, and did it out of love, or maybe it didn't even happen in his world.  But Brian singing with his friends Jan and Dean...well, that was actually immoral, because it hurt Murry.

I leave you with this definition of narcissistic personality disorder from Wikipedia:

Hotchkiss[10] identified what he called the seven deadly sins of narcissism:

   1. Shamelessness - Shame is the feeling that lurks beneath all unhealthy narcissism, and the inability to process shame in healthy ways.
   2. Magical thinking - Narcissists see themselves as perfect using distortion and illusion known as magical thinking. They also use projection to shame dump onto others.
   3. Arrogance - If a narcissist is feeling deflated, he can reinflate himself by diminishing, debasing or degrading somebody else.
   4. Envy - If the narcissist's need to secure a sense of superiority meets an obstacle because of somebody else, he neutralises it using contempt to minimise the other person's ability
   5. Entitlement - Narcissists hold unreasonable expectations of particularly favorable treatment and automatic compliance because they consider themselves uniquely special. Any failure to comply will be considered an attack on their superiority and the perpetrator is considered to be an "awkward" or "difficult" person. Defiance of their will is a narcissistic injury that can trigger narcissistic rage.
   6. Exploitation - can take many forms but always involves the using of others without regards for their feelings or interests. Often the other is in a subservient position where resistance would be difficult or even impossible. Sometimes the subservience is not so much real as assumed.
   7. Bad Boundaries - narcissists do not recognize that they have boundaries and that others are separate and are not extensions of themselves. Others either exist to meet their needs or may as well not exist at all. Those who provide narcissistic supply to the narcissist will be treated as if they are part of the narcissist and be expected to live up to those expectations. In the mind of a narcissist, there is no boundary between self and other.


You could plug in excerpts from Murry's letter after each of those seven.

102  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: I a=have a Van Dyke Parks question.... on: October 23, 2009, 10:46:52 PM
I thought Nina Simone shot him.  Just for snorin'.
103  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Brian's Greatest Hits Tour ...How is it? on: October 21, 2009, 07:06:17 PM
The great thing about money is that it's a renewable asset.  Work one more day and you're a hundred dollars richer (or whatever).  Memories on the other hand have to be gotten.  They don't come out of thin air.


A month from now what will be more important?  The money you spent or an experience that will probably stay with you for the rest of your life?

To borrow a line from someone we all know... "Life is for the living...".

Words of wisdom.
104  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Wind chimes - Air on: October 19, 2009, 08:01:56 PM
What's really interesting to me is that "Air" in this sense doesn't refer to the element, i.e. oxygen, but to a musical form.  Probably everybody else got this years ago, but I had never really thought about the potential of an intended pun there. If "Air" was really meant to have been a piano piece, as was supposedly said in the seventies, was the pun assumed to have been intended, and was that considered a clue as to the form of it?
105  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Dennis and Charlie on: October 18, 2009, 12:35:36 PM
Going back through years' worth of flawed memory here, but didn't the Bugliosi book, or something, claim that Dennis bought the song from Manson with a motorcycle?
106  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: LA Times Article - I Guess It Belongs Here on: October 10, 2009, 06:43:01 PM
Thanks for the links, Surfer Joe. I'm a big Ella fan. In addition to the Ella Fitzgerald & Louis Armstrong CD, I also have Ella's Christmas album, which I've already listened to this year! police

A little off-topic (just for this one question, I promise.... Smiley, but did you ever see the video/performance of "The Lady Is A Tramp" with Ella and Frank Sinatra from Sinatra's TV special in 1967?

Just back from a short trip- I think I have that special on an old VHS tape, along with a lot of other old Sinatra TV stuff.  If I've seen it it's been around ten years.  Do I need to dig it out, or is it on YouTube?

By the way, those aren't suggestions above- I will harangue and harass you and move into your neighborhood and raise smelly livestock upwind of you until you comply with me.  This music belongs in your ears. 

I'll tell a SMiLE story that makes my point when I'm less burned out and tired.

Incidentally, this unfinished Gershwin thing has been done before: when Billy Wilder made his (disastrous flop) film "Kiss Me, Stupid" in 1964 about two struggling songwriters, Ira Gershwin volunteered and supplied (and either finished or reworked) a bunch of stray songs he and his brother had left behind, as the work of the two characters in the film.  I think one I recall was called "You're A Scrambled Egg", or something like that.  Would have fit nicely with Brian's 1967 direction. In the film they get demo'd for Dino.  Just wanted to type that.
107  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: LA Times Article - I Guess It Belongs Here on: October 10, 2009, 12:14:56 AM
Sheriff, probably the seminal collection of Gershwin's songs- and you should have it RIGHT NOW, put everything else aside, this guy is a serious candidate for America's greatest songwriter (along with Brian and a few others)- is Ella Fitzgerald's, with Nelson Riddle from her "songbook" series:

Don't get a cut-down version, you need all of it.  As a matter of fact, if you're feeling frisky, go for the whole Ella songbook box set- it's as essential as it gets:

By far the best deal on this set is at the former BMG/Columbia Record Club- and they're a good deal anyway:

One caveat: Ella is not always at her best in such large doses. Listen to one disc at a time.

Another good selection of Gershwin material, to be had cheaply:

And you might also consider picking up on the Miles Davis version of "Porgy And Bess".

One last suggestion- Erroll Garner, the guy who wrote "Misty", maybe the greatest jazz pianist who ever lived, turned a number of Gershwin (and Jerome Kern) songs into virtual concert pieces here in just a few minutes each- his impressionistic version of "Love Walked In" will make your toes curl- seriously one of the most spine-tingling, beautiful things I've ever heard in my entire life:

Absolutely stunning. I'd give anything if I could post it for discussion. Hit the link and listen to the samples.

For more help hit me up privately.
108  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Disney wishlist on: October 08, 2009, 12:34:48 PM
Here's an oddball pick- "The Age Of Not Believing", from "Bedknobs And Broomsticks".  I have a nice version by the Living Voices that I wish I could post.  Would have killed to hear the Beach Boys do it in about 1966- before it was written, of course.

The original song "Winnie The Pooh": "Deep in the Hundred Acre Wood, where Christopher Robin plays..."

"You Can Fly! You Can Fly! You Can Fly!"

"Alice In Wonderland" and "I Give Myself Very Good Advice"

"Everybody Wants To Be A Cat"

And how about "The Monkey's Uncle 2009"?

EDIT: Here's a nice demo of that first song I mentioned, in a medley along with another fairly obscure one Brian might consider- "Candle On The Water" from "Pete's Dragon", though I'm not sure he could handle the range on that one:
109  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: brian is back on: October 04, 2009, 08:13:23 PM
I've always liked the song and it would never occur to me to take it at anything but face value. To me it's totally warm and sincere, especially given that it stayed pretty much in the shadows for so long.
110  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Has anyone from Brian's old inner circle commented on BWPS on: October 04, 2009, 12:15:49 AM
To get this thread back on point, whose fault was it that SMiLE never came out in '67?  Thanks in advance.

111  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: How many children does Brian have? ( excluding Wendy & Carnie ) on: September 29, 2009, 09:43:02 PM
I thought this was going to be a trick question and the answer was that we were all Brian's children or something.

112  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: when was the first time you noticed or listened to the beach boys? on: September 29, 2009, 09:28:04 PM
I started listening to the radio regularly in late 1962. There was this goofy, but charming, novelty song called "Ten Little Indians." The next spring I heard "Surfin' U.S.A.," "Shut Down," "Surfer Girl," and "Little Deuce Coupe" on the airwaves, and I was hooked on that amazing sound. 

Ladies and gentlemen, I believe Emdeeh has all of our arses kicked, unless anyone here was living on West 119th Street or Kornblum Avenue in about 1960.
113  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: when was the first time you noticed or listened to the beach boys? on: September 29, 2009, 02:42:34 PM
It was 1972, and I was seven years old and headed to J.C.Penney's with my life's savings- around two bucks- to buy my first (non-Bozo The Clown) vinyl.  The targets were the Beatles singles- "She Loves You" (on the Swan label, I think) and "Please Please Me" (some orange label, but not Capitol or Apple, I think).  I had been obsessed with the Beatles since before I could read. My brother suggested that for variety, my third choice should be "I Get Around" backed with "Don't Worry Baby"- he personally vouched for it.  

I was vaguely aware of the Beach Boys already, but they had a somewhat low profile in 1972, and after the subsequent blowing of my young mind that resulted from that 79 cent investment, I had some trouble finding more stuff- especially LPs.  My oldest brother saw them live at the University of Georgia that Fall, and brought me his copies of the two-for-one LPs California Girls (truncated Summer Days) and All Summer Long with bastardized covers, and the collection proceeded from there.

I still have the singles, in their little carrying case at my parents' house.
114  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Brianīs new Songs... on: September 28, 2009, 12:08:11 PM
I can't shed any light on any of that, but it's a hell of a song.  And it's probably one Brian's most autobiographical songs ever ("I heard voices in my head", "the more I thought of it, I had been out of it", "found out it was in my head", etc.).   

Small problem - Murry wrote those lyrics.  Smiley

Not a problem at all.  Autobiographical lyrics from Brian Wilson don't have to be his own words.  The lyrics clearly reflect some knowledge that Murry had regarding Brian's mental state at the time.

Agree.  "Caroline, No" comes right to mind.  Did Asher once say something to the effect that Brian had more to do with lyrics, and he (Asher) more to do with melodies on Pet Sounds, than people thought? "Caroline, No" and others clearly seem to be linked to thoughts and feelings of Brian's around that time. And didn't Brian often offer titles to start with?
115  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Brianīs new Songs... on: September 26, 2009, 11:29:50 PM
I think he was under control with Landy in 1977, and living a healthier and more productive existence, but not really in a better place mentally beyond that.  Just an opinion, of course.  As to the rest of your comment, obviously, I agree.
116  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Brianīs new Songs... on: September 26, 2009, 11:18:01 PM
I don't think Johnny Carson comes from a particularly "dark period." It was written when Brian was cleaned up for the first time by Landy. He wrote a song about something that he liked. And I don't think Brian is an idiot -- it's not like he thought the song was a potential single or anything, or that it wasn't a least somewhat silly. Brian had written humor songs before -- Vegetables, for instance. I give him a little credit for knowing what he was doing.

That's a fair enough point.  As to whether that was a dark period, though, read the Rolling Stone article around that time, or any other stuff- he was in awful shape mentally.  To me the song is the sound of a guy that's gone around the bend, but to compare it to "Vegetables" or "Bugged At My Ol' Man" is a fair point.
117  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Who let Bruce write songs for the album? on: September 26, 2009, 11:04:44 PM
I feel obliged to man up here and say that "Deirdre" is one of my favorite post-Capitol Beach Boys songs and I can't imagine Sunflower without it.  Wouldn't want to change that excellent album one bit.
118  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Brianīs new Songs... on: September 26, 2009, 10:57:11 PM
My mistake- I meant "Still I Dream Of It"- good melody, godawful lyric.  

Forgive me if this next thing sounds harsh; I'm just throwing this out here for discussion.   And I know this puts me at tremendous odds with a lot of folks in the next generation of Brian's fans, too, but I've never gotten the pretending that "Johnny Carson" and stuff like that is "brilliant".   To me it's sort of demeaning to him and what remains of his dignity. That material is the product of some dark problems he was going through, and I'll always hold it a little against the whole band for letting it get out there in that form. If Brian had actually died as a result of that period- coked himself to death, or dug his grave and leaped from the roof into it-  I wonder if we'd find his unraveling so cool. I don't know, maybe it'd be more so.  

In about 1990 there was an independent label tribute CD with some good stuff on it, but one band turned in a mocking version of "Johnny Carson".  Some tribute to Brian. That's what they got of his career?  Really? I hated 'em for that.

I just can't stand seeing the guy who wrote "Caroline, No" mock-revered for the lunatic emotional-problem stuff like "Johnny Carson".  The stuff that makes non-Beach Boys fans cringe makes me cringe even more. There, it's always bothered me, I said it, have at me.  I'm a spoilsport. Bring on the rotten tomatoes. Just one guy's opinion, anyway.
119  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Have you gone through a [insert name] phase? on: September 26, 2009, 12:09:14 PM
120  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Have you gone through a [insert name] phase? on: September 26, 2009, 10:40:29 AM
I've paid tribute to Brian over the years by gaining weight, growing a beard, lying in bed mostly since 2001, and starting a lot of projects that I won't complete within 37 years.
121  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Brianīs new Songs... on: September 26, 2009, 10:20:08 AM
Amy, I agree, and I have always disagreed that the early stuff rode the coattails of the surfing and car genres.  There were a ton of bands doing that stuff at the time, and the Beach Boys emerged from the pack.  I think they could have taken Murry's suggestion and written about yellow roses and had hits with songs and vocal arrangements that were that good.  They were going to happen no matter what. That being said, the lyrical subject matter and the lyrics are sort of different discussions. 

Sheriff, interesting picks- especially "Add Some Music".  Brian Wilson's stuff has had a wide variety of quality in the lyrics, ranging from the brilliance of Parks, which fully answered Brian's genius, to the awfulness of some of the stuff like "It's Over Now" and "That Same Song" and a lot of other mid-seventies "Johnny Carson" era material that I find really frustrating, though some people seem to find a great camp value in that period.
122  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Brianīs new Songs... on: September 25, 2009, 09:25:13 PM
On second thought, make that "horse thief".
123  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Brianīs new Songs... on: September 25, 2009, 09:24:31 PM
Off hand, I don't know if there's ever been one Brian Wilson song that truly had stronger lyrics than melody. There must be one somewhere.
I prefer the H&V lyrics to the melody. So if co-writes count, I'd vote for that.

That's a decent call, you sheep-stealer.  I would agree that that one's a better lyric than melody, just because it's one of the best lyrics ever put to a Brian Wilson song, in my opinion, and also, it's much more of a production/arrangement than melody. So yeah, but it's not a real big disparity, like so many are going the other way.
124  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Brianīs new Songs... on: September 25, 2009, 09:15:52 PM

Well, I don`t see the point in debating a few percent here or there Clearly Scott wrote the lyrics which is half of the song right there.

Lyrics are not half of a song.
That absolutely depends on the song in question (or really, the listener's taste). In many cases, lyrics are far more than half a song: Bob Dylan, Lou Reed/VU, or the Mountain Goats would be examples when at least sometimes the music is entirely unremarkable except for the lyrics. For most BBs-related music, I'd agree that the music is more interesting to me, and so "more than half."

Good post, I agree with Luther here, although he is a bounder and a cad [there, add those!].

To me, even titles are bigger than the actual lyrics in some cases, including a lot of the Beach Boys' classic stuff. Once you had "Good Vibrations" or "California Girls" or "I Get Around" the idea is there and the rest falls into place. "Brother Can You Spare A Dime?"- there's a classic, but can many people hum the whole thing or give me a lot of the lyrics beyond the memorable title?

Something like Peggy Lee's hit "Is That All There Is" is overwhelmed by the lyrics, and even a lot of  older songs like Johnny Mercer's "Ac-Cent-Tchu-Ate the Positive" and Nat King Cole's "Straighten Up And Fly Right" seem to get more bang out of the lyrics than the melody. "Who Let The Dogs Out"- I'm going with the lyrics. "Whoomp! (There It Is)"- ditto. The 1966 "Batman Theme"- tie.  "Tequila"- ditto. Most of Beethoven's stuff, I'm going with melody.  "Bridge Over Troubled Water"- both. "The Macarena"- neither.

Off hand, I don't know if there's ever been one Brian Wilson song that truly had stronger lyrics than melody. There must be one somewhere.
125  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Rockaway Records on: September 24, 2009, 02:15:49 PM
I think the first time I was ever in Rockaway, when they were across the street in the little shop that later became a porn rental place, I bought the original (highly inaccurate) 1966 Pet Sounds song "folio", from a stack they had in new condition, that still had the 119th Street address on it, and maybe also my copy of Look, Listen, Vibrate, Smile, the mere existence of which caused my head to explode in a gory mess while my gaping neck belched flame and smoke. Clean-up on aisle ten. I also got CD imports of 10 Years Of Harmony and L.A. from them around that time, I think.

Great place.  Long live Rockaway, and thanks for posting this.
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