Why did the BBs use Al and Bruce as producers?

[Mr. Cohen]

Seriously, they sucked. MIU and Keepin' The Summer Alive are in a large part ruined by the limp production. The songs have no power, the instruments have no space, and a lot of the instrumental parts are buried in the mix! There's no sense of dynamics or anything. Al & Bruce couldn't grasp the larger sonic soundscape the way good producers do. Were the BBs just being cheap? Were they so weird to work with that outside producers couldn't gel with them? I honestly think that better production could've really improved some of the songs on those two albums. I mean, after all, Brian was involved in those  albums, even if it was often against his will.

[Mr. Cohen]

I'll also say that whoever played bass on MIU really sucked, too. It reminds me of the auto-accompaniment feature on a Yamaha keyboard. There's a lot of root note playing on this album.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

Well, Bruce did also produce LA: Light Album, that I personally find fantastic on all counts!

[tpesky]

I think MIU might have sounded even worse with less production. The material is just weak in a lot of cases, a few exceptions granted.

[Dunderhead]

They could have done so well on those albums. I read an old post saying that Brian's early work went pretty well, but that he lost interest when Bruce rejoined the band.
It's sad considering how well Dennis was doing as producer during that era, I guess he just didn't have any interest in producing the band.

[bgas]

They could have done so well on those albums. I read an old post saying that Brian's early work went pretty well, but that he lost interest when Bruce rejoined the band.
It's sad considering how well Dennis was doing as producer during that era, I guess he just didn't have any interest in producing the band.

Oh sure, I can just see Mike agreeing to have Dennis as Producer for a BBs Album.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

Did Mike really care who Produced what? Isn't he quoted as saying his thing is singing and playing live, not working in the studio?

He certainly didn't somehow manage to avoid Dennis being credited for whatever Production he did do in the past on Beach Boys albums.

[bgas]

Did Mike really care who Produced what? Isn't he quoted as saying his thing is singing and playing live, not working in the studio?

He certainly didn't somehow manage to avoid Dennis being credited for whatever Production he did do in the past on Beach Boys albums.

I can't remember those productions right now; what were they? 

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

Well, his own songs, of course. Most of which Mike sang on. "All I Wanna Do": he sang lead, in fact. Or "Only With You" which he wrote the lyrics for.

I'm just saying let's not rush to blame Mike.

[Ron]

 I'm no expert.  I gotta go with my gut though; the Beach Boys had rock star egos, and rightfully so... they were one of the biggest rock bands of all time.  So basically they produced themselves because they could.  

Plus, you've got to remember that's how they always did it.  Brian started producing them early on, and they eventually evolved to a really seat of the pants way of recording, where they did albums in Brian's house, recorded their own sound effects and crap for SMiLE songs, blah blah blah, Dennis probably had his own Studio, they jumped around from location to location to record, went to Holland and did a record, etc.

So they weren't like a traditional band that has a producer and books time somewhere, they just always did it themselves and would probably consider it an insult if somebody pushed a producer on them.  It just so happens that apparently Al and Bruce sucked as producers.

I guess you could rephrase though and say "Why didn't Dennis or Carl produce it?".  I can't answer that one.  

[Ron]

Well, his own songs, of course. Most of which Mike sang on. "All I Wanna Do": he sang lead, in fact. Or "Only With You" which he wrote the lyrics for.

I'm just saying let's not rush to blame Mike.

I agree with you, Erik, I doubt Mike gave a rats ass who produced what.  If he was in the studio though, he's probably not going to be interested in having Dennis tell him what to do.  Could be wrong. 

I don't think Mike was too into what the albums were like, though.  He probably felt that the Beach Boys were a stage band (he DEFINATELY feels that way now) so would just see the albums as a vehicle to get back and out front that tour. 

I respect Mike for that, actually.  He's a pretty limited musician... and his only real strong suit is that he's a good frontman (sorry; he is!).  So he sticks to what he's good at.  He's only concerned with what he's good at.  I can get behind that.  I don't mean that as an afront to his songwriting ability which was at times great, or his vocal ability which was at times great. 

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

Yeah, I guess the better question is: would Dennis really sit there for endless hours in the studio Producing things like Pitter Patter, Winds Of Change, Kona Cost,  ETC?

[MBE]

First it must be said that Beach Boys stoped being musically compatable after Holland. Sure they had always been diverse but they seemed to have a unified sound or goal in mind. After 1972 nobody's music sounded remotely like the others. They grew apart and began to want different things for the band.

One must remember that Dennis  produced the band with no problem before Manson got accused. After that they probably didn't want him in charge as much. Ed has said several times that Dennis had a lot more respect before Manson was arrested. Also you have take in account that the basically healthy Dennis of say 1968-72 was a long gone memory by the time of MIU let alone KTSA. By 1978 even people working with Dennis on his solo albums were beginning to back off. Carli etc.

Carl himself was in no shape to produce the band by 1977 and I think he too lost some respect after his drug period. Maybe had Dennis and Brian gotten healthy with him in 1979 he could have been back in charge but I don't think he would have been a great choice  either. Let's face it after Angel Come Home he lost his edge with the exception of Heaven.

Al did get the vocals to sound pretty good but his style was faux (later seasons of Happy Days) retro. I don't hate MIU myself. I don't love it but it's the only Beach boy album after Holland that I can play without too much cringing.  Well not counting Belles Of Paris. Oh that track is horrid but hey at least it wasn't a ten minute waste of space like HCTN.

Getting Bruce back was the worst decision they could have made at least musically. He led them into a really sappy soft arena. First he tried to graft them onto bad and fading trends, then he went along blindly without a fuss as the Beach Boys totally went to waste.  He was fine from 1965-72 but like Carl I think he developed creatively in a real lightweight direction. Of course even Disney Girls and Deirdre would not hold up like they do without the class the Beach Boys vocal blend brought them, but there he managed to adapt to the Bach Boys instead of making them adapt to him. Funny thing is that Bruce and even worse Beach Boys producer Terry Melcher made some fantastic records in the sixties. Listen to something like My World Fell Down and tell me if Bruce was the sap meister then. Hint he sure as hell wasn't.

So why did Al and Bruce take over in the late seventies? Well the real producers of the band couldn't get it together anymore and somewhat understandably had lost the respect and control of the rest of the band. I'm not saying the Wilson's are bad people, or that I don't feel sincerely sad they went the way they did but would you have liked to work with them circa1978? It was a desperate move in some ways having Al and Bruce take charge but I suppose the idea was to keep it in the family.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

Very well put, though I must respectfully disagree about Disney Girls: a fantastic song, Beach Boys or not, as any of the various cover versions/Bruce solo versions can ably demonstrate.

[jabba2]

I dont think Dennis was ever responsible enough to produce a BB record without heavy involvement from the rest of the band. Its true no one in the group would take him serious because he always goofed off and they did use his songs. And he always got alot of help from Brian or outside collabarators to help write the music for them. Im not sure he was ever fully capable of producing a record in the 60's by himself, im not sure anyone else in the band would have wanted that anyway. Brian included. Carl had his producing moments but i think Mike and Al and Bruce probably did not want a Wilson producing every record unless it was Brian. Carl and Dennis always wanted to take the group forward (Holland being a good example) while every one else wanted to stay an oldies band.

[MBE]

Very well put, though I must respectfully disagree about Disney Girls: a fantastic song, Beach Boys or not, as any of the various cover versions/Bruce solo versions can ably demonstrate.

I like Disney Girls for what it is, and have heard a few very good versions other then the record by Bruce live and by other artists. My point wasn't to knock the song as such, but to mention why I felt Bruce fit in the early seventies as opposed to the late seventies. In short it's because the group came together and made Bruce's 69-71 stuff into Beach Boys records with real Beach Boys harmony including Brian. By the time Bruce came back I feel he had gone too far with his mor tendenices. Also because Brian, Carl and Dennis had declined so much from 1972-78 you weren't getting the group sounding the same or getting along well enough to make a real Beach Boys sound on something like Oh Darlin. Despite it getting some later day praise, even Endless Harmony sounds contrived despite some moments of beauty.

Mike and Al aren't blameless of course themselves. For example in 1978 Mike was saving his better songs for his First Love and Celebration projects. Regressing as a songwriter, his overall quality declined because he tried too hard to be a "BEACH BOY".

Al may have been trying to make his songs mature, but he too had the band doing bad covers and in doing so embraced the past as their future. I don't want to make like they never did good music after 1972-73, but once the Brian is Back stuff hit it was rare that the group could agree on anything or even support each others efforts. I feel very strongly that despite occasinal misfires the Beach Boys of 1961-73 or so had a terrific track record artistically. They were consistantly a top quality band making top quality records. After 1973 only Dennis continued to grow and keep the quality high in the studio. Sadly the last six or seven years his live performances got gradually worse and worse. As late as the Knebworth show he had a degree of real charm, but it was obvious something was wrong. No doubt his sprial did hurt him as a live performer. Still to get back to the point the only thing I can say of the MIU to KTSA period is that at least they were making records and trying to issue new music regularly. After 1980 we didn't even have that.

I don't mean to be a downer, but again the only answer I can give is that Al and Bruce filled in because the others couldn't handlle producing at that point or weren't wanted.

[Andrew G. Doe]

Well, his own songs, of course. Most of which Mike sang on. "All I Wanna Do": he sang lead, in fact.

Yes, he did - but Dennis didn't write or produce it.

[smile-holland]

Well, his own songs, of course. Most of which Mike sang on. "All I Wanna Do": he sang lead, in fact.

Yes, he did - but Dennis didn't write or produce it.

Let's call it "All I Want To Do" then.

(or am I mixing up songs again, mr. Doe?    )

[Andrew G. Doe]

Well, his own songs, of course. Most of which Mike sang on. "All I Wanna Do": he sang lead, in fact.

Yes, he did - but Dennis didn't write or produce it.

Let's call it "All I Want To Do" then.

(or am I mixing up songs again, mr. Doe?    )

Not this time.  Easily done, to be fair - even EMI in the UK managed to do it big time. Guess what they pressed up as the B side to "I Can Hear Music" for the 1979 26-disc singles boxed set ? Correct, not "All I Want To Do".

[Mike's Beard]

It is a bit baffling why they chose to give two completely different songs virtually identical titles, but then this is The Beach Boys we are talking about! Brian and Mike could have easily called theirs "My Love Burns Brightly" or something along those lines.

[Fall Breaks]

You'd think that it would be more appropriate not to abbreviate 'want to' to 'wanna' in the slow song, but no...

[The Heartical Don]

I agree on the production values of MIU and KTSA. They are really far below average. Both albums sound heavily compressed, and there's absolutely no bright, transparend top end. It all is so muffled, so energy-free... a simple early ditty like '409' rips both albums to shreds, soundwise.

As for Light Album, that one is really better. 'Good Timin'', 'Going South', 'Baby Blue', all excellent. They sound like Denny and Carl were there at the desk, but I gather from the earlier messages in this thread they were not credited? Could it be that Curt Becher (née Boettcher) had a hand in the bright sound? Anyway, I wonder to this day how experienced pros, like the BBs were at that time, could let something like MIU pass quality control.

[Andrew G. Doe]

I agree on the production values of MIU and KTSA. They are really far below average. Both albums sound heavily compressed, and there's absolutely no bright, transparend top end. It all is so muffled, so energy-free... a simple early ditty like '409' rips both albums to shreds, soundwise.

As for Light Album, that one is really better. 'Good Timin'', 'Going South', 'Baby Blue', all excellent. They sound like Denny and Carl were there at the desk, but I gather from the earlier messages in this thread they were not credited? Could it be that Curt Becher (née Boettcher) had a hand in the bright sound? Anyway, I wonder to this day how experienced pros, like the BBs were at that time, could let something like MIU pass quality control.

Curt was only involved in the disco track.

[The Heartical Don]

I agree on the production values of MIU and KTSA. They are really far below average. Both albums sound heavily compressed, and there's absolutely no bright, transparend top end. It all is so muffled, so energy-free... a simple early ditty like '409' rips both albums to shreds, soundwise.

As for Light Album, that one is really better. 'Good Timin'', 'Going South', 'Baby Blue', all excellent. They sound like Denny and Carl were there at the desk, but I gather from the earlier messages in this thread they were not credited? Could it be that Curt Becher (née Boettcher) had a hand in the bright sound? Anyway, I wonder to this day how experienced pros, like the BBs were at that time, could let something like MIU pass quality control.

Curt was only involved in the disco track.

OK, thanks to our one and only font of knowledge. Andrew, BTW: Brad Eliott's 'Surf's Up' book is available in my town for a measly 10 Euros or so. It is the Helter Skelter paperback from 2003. Is it worth the money, considering it does not cover everything up until now? What would you do?

[smile-holland]

It might not cover until 2011, but until 1981 it's a very complete overview. It might miss a few releases and some info might be a bit dated by now, but you won't find a book that 'll cover it better.

So for 10 Euro, I recommend buying it.