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Author Topic: Frankie Valli or Brian Wilson - who had the better falsetto?  (Read 24532 times)
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« Reply #25 on: February 25, 2011, 09:10:51 AM »

Both were extraordinary. Valli was a terrific singer falsetto or not. Some of his delivieries with his full voice are amazing, like " sunday kind of love", for instance. Brian was brilliant, and, like Valli, could sing great regular and falsetto vocals. Of course, Brian's falsetto register was achieved smoothly (don't worry baby) and had efortless, beautiful tone, and was able to achieve great depth of expression within it... Which is rare. He also had a wide range and great expressive qualities with his regular voice, to be sure. But let's make one thing clear:

She knows me too well... Verses regular voice, chorus falsetto
I get Around... Falsetto
Dance dance dance... Falsetto
Don't worry baby... Smooth transitions from regular to falsetto
So young... "we wanna get married" regular voice, rest of phrase falsetto
We'll run away... See DWB

Brian's the great counter tenor of rock. But Valli could kick some serious ass too with his in-your-face delivery
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« Reply #26 on: February 25, 2011, 09:17:49 AM »

Frankie Valli's falsetto sounds like its coming out an amped Italian leprechaun, Brian's sounds like its coming out of a big mellow dude from California who can sing really high. I like a lot of Four Seasons stuff, Valli had a great feel for songs...but he's no Brian Wilson. Consider this... Don't Talk (Put Your Head On My Shoulder)...can you imagine what torture that would be hearing Valli sing it with that mean nasal thing he's got going?

But Brian was a big fan of Sherry. He taught it to the Beach Boys right after it became a hit...and made them sing it live in '62.
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« Reply #27 on: February 25, 2011, 09:24:10 AM »

I feel Brian's conveyed much more emotion and could be incorporated into a much wider range of song styles than Frankie's which sometimes feels like he's using it more as a gimmick. Saying that, his "Whoooohoooohoooo's" on "Walk Like a Man" slay me everytime I hear it, pure magic.
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« Reply #28 on: February 25, 2011, 09:28:51 AM »

"Ringo was Richard, not a Dick." 
That was Lennon, wasn't it?
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« Reply #29 on: February 25, 2011, 09:33:40 AM »

'Don't Worry Baby'

Greatest falsetto in history. Especially the version from Summer Love Songs.
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« Reply #30 on: February 25, 2011, 09:37:13 AM »

Frankie has/had a strong falsetto but it's not quite as versatile as Brian's was. He could wail those high notes but when it came to being sweet and soft, he didn't have the control that Brian had. Brian's falsetto is more jazz inspired as well while Frankie's most certainly had its roots in doo-wap.
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« Reply #31 on: February 25, 2011, 09:49:16 AM »

If you watch the Inside Pop solo piano performance of Surf's Up, you hear Brian's voice without any kind of studio processing or trickery. When he hits the impossibly high notes on the word "domino", what voice is he using?

FWIW, I thought Frankie Valli's high falsetto could be very grating and shrill because he used it so damn much! It's similar to a high screaming trumpet player like Maynard Ferguson, or a shredder of a guitarist - sure it's a technical skill, yes it can be really cool and impressive, but some players like Ferguson pound your ears with screaming high notes constantly and it's too much to handle.

Don't get me wrong, I like the Four Seasons especially the production and songwriting, but too much of Frankie Valli belting out high notes can overpower the sometimes brilliant music going on underneath all the faux-streetcorner swagger. I prefer the more mellow, chest-y voice Valli used on later songs, especially "Can't Take My Eyes Off Of You", which is a brilliant vocal performance where he doesn't lapse into that falsetto at all, and delivers a powerful vocal over a brilliant arrangement.

I like Frankie's lower voice too.

As for the high note in Surf's Up...hard to tell.  Certainly that is quite high, but there are plenty of examples of operatic tenors hitting that same F5 in full (that is legitimate head) voice.  Interestingly enough, there's a debate about many of those in the tenor community, about who is actually supporting the note and who slips into falsetto.

Check it out:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=znluwLNcL7g

The high note there is the famous high F5 (same note as Brian sings in Surf's Up.  Interesting to note that on the Surf's Up LP, that note is harmonized above, by Carl, who is surely singing the A5 there in falsetto.) from the aria "credeasi misera" from Bellini's I Puritani.  Most tenors will sing a lower note, but that F is actually notated in the score.  This Brownlee fellow is considered by many to have the best high F in this aria of the people that have attempted it, and you will notice they're talking in the comments about Falsetto V. Head, etc.
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« Reply #32 on: February 25, 2011, 10:26:34 AM »

What do posters think?

Brian by a mile.  Not really even in the same category.  Frankie Valli is great but Brian's unbelievable.  Frankie's was great for longer, I guess, though if that matters. 
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« Reply #33 on: February 25, 2011, 10:28:54 AM »

To me it is a falsetto. Brian was just able to transition (Slide) into it very easily, which not many singers can do.

That's how I feel too.  Brian definately sang falsetto a lot, he could switch in and out of it within phrases, though, which is pretty incredible to pull off easily.  I think Michael McDonald uses that same type of effect.  Half the notes are just clean head voice, the other half are falsetto.  Brian's the best I've ever heard at that. 
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« Reply #34 on: February 25, 2011, 10:38:53 AM »

To me it is a falsetto. Brian was just able to transition (Slide) into it very easily, which not many singers can do.

That's how I feel too.  Brian definately sang falsetto a lot, he could switch in and out of it within phrases, though, which is pretty incredible to pull off easily.  I think Michael McDonald uses that same type of effect.  Half the notes are just clean head voice, the other half are falsetto.  Brian's the best I've ever heard at that. 

I know this is a silly thing to debate, but I just can't disagree more.  Perhaps the debate would be better suited on a vocal technique forum, but there nobody would care about the Beach Boys.  I just don't hear loose "cords" on almost anything Brian sang certainly through the 60s.  I think people are still taking anything that is higher than the break to be falsetto, which deprives Brian of a lot of credit for the work he was doing.  I dunno, call it what you want, but I will always be here to protest.   Grin
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« Reply #35 on: February 25, 2011, 11:32:54 AM »

To me it is a falsetto. Brian was just able to transition (Slide) into it very easily, which not many singers can do.

That's how I feel too.  Brian definately sang falsetto a lot, he could switch in and out of it within phrases, though, which is pretty incredible to pull off easily.  I think Michael McDonald uses that same type of effect.  Half the notes are just clean head voice, the other half are falsetto.  Brian's the best I've ever heard at that. 

I know this is a silly thing to debate, but I just can't disagree more.  Perhaps the debate would be better suited on a vocal technique forum, but there nobody would care about the Beach Boys.  I just don't hear loose "cords" on almost anything Brian sang certainly through the 60s.  I think people are still taking anything that is higher than the break to be falsetto, which deprives Brian of a lot of credit for the work he was doing.  I dunno, call it what you want, but I will always be here to protest.   Grin

I'm with you Josh.  Unless you know what each voice feels like and sounds like, it can be hard to tell the difference.  I can't think of too many examples of Brian using an actual falsetto - "columnated ruins domino" is a maybe, only because it's higher than most notes he sang and somewhat softer than a lot of his "power" head voice vocals (think "I Get Around").  Even so, I'd still call that head voice, whereas Carl sang that part (and the A5 harmony) in falsetto (as you alluded to earlier).  "Barbie" is the only other song I can think of where it sounds like he's using falsetto in the 60's.   

As a singer myself (no Brian Wilson, of course), I've always been in awe of what Brian was able to do with his head voice, which for most male singers is a lot more difficult to control than falsetto.  He not only controlled it, but made it sound so natural.  Just a nice clean un-forced sound.  Watching him on stage in '64 blows my mind, because he makes these super high parts look effortless to sing. 
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« Reply #36 on: February 25, 2011, 12:39:08 PM »

Quote

I know this is a silly thing to debate, but I just can't disagree more.  Perhaps the debate would be better suited on a vocal technique forum, but there nobody would care about the Beach Boys.  I just don't hear loose "cords" on almost anything Brian sang certainly through the 60s.  I think people are still taking anything that is higher than the break to be falsetto, which deprives Brian of a lot of credit for the work he was doing.  I dunno, call it what you want, but I will always be here to protest.   Grin

What makes you so adamant about this particular distinction?  I mean even Brian calls that voice falsetto.  The singers most know for this style of singing, like Frankie Valli, Brian Wilson, Del Shannon all call what they do falsetto.  
« Last Edit: February 25, 2011, 12:40:54 PM by monkeytree5 » Logged
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« Reply #37 on: February 25, 2011, 12:52:49 PM »

To me it is a falsetto. Brian was just able to transition (Slide) into it very easily, which not many singers can do.

That's how I feel too.  Brian definately sang falsetto a lot, he could switch in and out of it within phrases, though, which is pretty incredible to pull off easily.  I think Michael McDonald uses that same type of effect.  Half the notes are just clean head voice, the other half are falsetto.  Brian's the best I've ever heard at that. 

I know this is a silly thing to debate, but I just can't disagree more.  Perhaps the debate would be better suited on a vocal technique forum, but there nobody would care about the Beach Boys.  I just don't hear loose "cords" on almost anything Brian sang certainly through the 60s.  I think people are still taking anything that is higher than the break to be falsetto, which deprives Brian of a lot of credit for the work he was doing.  I dunno, call it what you want, but I will always be here to protest.   Grin
Ok, I'll play dumb here. Why would a vocal technique forum not care about The Beach Boys?
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Thou Art In Hawthorne,
Harmonied Be Thy name
Your Kingdom Come,
Your Steak Well Done,
On Stage As It Is In Studio,
Give Us This Day, Our Shortenin' Bread
And Forgive Us Our Bootlegs,
As We Also Have Forgiven Our Wife And Managers,
And Lead Us Not Into Kokomo,
But Deliver Us From Mike Love.
Amen.  ---hypehat
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« Reply #38 on: February 25, 2011, 04:09:16 PM »

Quote

I know this is a silly thing to debate, but I just can't disagree more.  Perhaps the debate would be better suited on a vocal technique forum, but there nobody would care about the Beach Boys.  I just don't hear loose "cords" on almost anything Brian sang certainly through the 60s.  I think people are still taking anything that is higher than the break to be falsetto, which deprives Brian of a lot of credit for the work he was doing.  I dunno, call it what you want, but I will always be here to protest.   Grin

What makes you so adamant about this particular distinction?  I mean even Brian calls that voice falsetto.  The singers most know for this style of singing, like Frankie Valli, Brian Wilson, Del Shannon all call what they do falsetto.  

... Exactly.  Anybody who tells me Brian sang the chorus of California Girls in full voice is full of sh*t.  That's falsetto, you don't have to be a vocal expert to know that.  He sang high.  He sometimes sang REALLY high, but when he sang a lot of that stuff he sang it in false.  You can hear him switching into it clear as day! Listen to Don't Worry Baby, like everybody's mentioned, it's obvious where he's singing falsetto.  I think the confusion is because he sang with such a strong falsetto that you can't hear much difference in his power, whereas almost everybody else has never been able to do that.  Most falsetto sounds weak and thin (AHEM, LIKE FRANKIE VALLI'S).

Brian sang it.  He said he sang it in falsetto.  He's one of the most famous musicans ever, and in my opinion one of the best singers I've ever heard.  I'll take his word on it.  He seems to know what he's talking about.   


Also I'd like to point out that Brian has a Doctorate in Music.  Do we have any folks on this board with a doctorate in music?  Hmmm? 
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« Reply #39 on: February 25, 2011, 04:39:47 PM »

Doesn't he only have an honorary degree? That's not at all the same thing as, you know, a degree that you worked to get.
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« Reply #40 on: February 25, 2011, 05:00:40 PM »

Doesn't he only have an honorary degree? That's not at all the same thing as, you know, a degree that you worked to get.

He worked his ass off to get that degree.  Attitudes like that are astonishing to me.  The reason they gave him the degree, is because he's worthy of it.  Brian Wilson knows more about music than any student that's went to school there and got that diploma, he's absolutely deserving of it. 

I'm supposed to accept a scholars opinion on how a guy sang, over the guy who actually sang it.  That'd be fine if we were talking about some halfassed american idol reject who didn't know what he was doing, but Brian Wilson?  You honestly think he doesn't deserve a doctorate in music? 

Ludicrious. 
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« Reply #41 on: February 25, 2011, 05:11:55 PM »

Doesn't he only have an honorary degree? That's not at all the same thing as, you know, a degree that you worked to get.

He worked his ass off to get that degree.  Attitudes like that are astonishing to me.  The reason they gave him the degree, is because he's worthy of it.  Brian Wilson knows more about music than any student that's went to school there and got that diploma, he's absolutely deserving of it. 

I'm supposed to accept a scholars opinion on how a guy sang, over the guy who actually sang it.  That'd be fine if we were talking about some halfassed american idol reject who didn't know what he was doing, but Brian Wilson?  You honestly think he doesn't deserve a doctorate in music? 

Ludicrious. 
Might've over-reacted there.
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« Reply #42 on: February 25, 2011, 05:24:22 PM »

Doesn't he only have an honorary degree? That's not at all the same thing as, you know, a degree that you worked to get.

He worked his ass off to get that degree.  Attitudes like that are astonishing to me.  The reason they gave him the degree, is because he's worthy of it.  Brian Wilson knows more about music than any student that's went to school there and got that diploma, he's absolutely deserving of it. 

I'm supposed to accept a scholars opinion on how a guy sang, over the guy who actually sang it.  That'd be fine if we were talking about some halfassed american idol reject who didn't know what he was doing, but Brian Wilson?  You honestly think he doesn't deserve a doctorate in music? 

Ludicrious. 
Might've over-reacted there.
How so? I think Ron reacted just right. 50 Years of writing and making music is terrific on the job training for a honorary doctorate.
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Thou Art In Hawthorne,
Harmonied Be Thy name
Your Kingdom Come,
Your Steak Well Done,
On Stage As It Is In Studio,
Give Us This Day, Our Shortenin' Bread
And Forgive Us Our Bootlegs,
As We Also Have Forgiven Our Wife And Managers,
And Lead Us Not Into Kokomo,
But Deliver Us From Mike Love.
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« Reply #43 on: February 25, 2011, 05:43:39 PM »

Yup.  Plus, it's some of the best ever.  To say that he doesn't deserve it, when he wrote Good Vibrations, is rediculous.  That's just 1 track.  LOL To get it back on topic, I feel the same way about Frankie Valli, he too is well deserving of a doctorate.  I'm sure he's been awarded one, hasn't he?
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« Reply #44 on: February 25, 2011, 06:44:47 PM »

From the Brian Wilson interview, Jim Pewter, August 1974:

JP: “Brian, besides writing and producing, you developed a style of singing in a falsetto kind of a style – it’s been your trademark through the years. How did you develop that?”

Brian : “It was easy for me to do falsetto, so I did the falsetto stuff with the guys 'cause it was easy to after practicing singing with the Four Freshman records. I wanted to see if I could go as high as he (Bob Flanigan) could, so my range went up a bunch of notes.”

On the OTHER hand…………

From Philip Lambert's “Inside The Music of Brian Wilson”, he quotes David Leaf as writing that Brian could sing high without resorting to falsetto. In Brian's words, “Bob Flanigan taught me how to sing high.”

Lambert also refers to Brian's "effortless falsetto", but that technically neither he (nor Carl) used "falsetto" when they sang high. Occasionally, Brian slips into falsetto (it's usually on the hook lines of chorus's: "Fun Fun Fun," "Surfin' USA," "Help Me Rhonda," etc) but more often than not Brian’s high lead vocals are not strained, i.e. like Flanigan's. Brian's lead vocals on "Surfer Girl", "In My Room",  or "Lonely Sea" are not classic shrill falsetto. Contrast those with, say, "Let Him Run Wild."

Lambert quotes Brian as saying "The Freshmen’s 'Voices In Love' is probably the greatest single vocal album I've ever heard in my whole life."
« Last Edit: February 25, 2011, 07:59:10 PM by Mikie » Logged

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« Reply #45 on: February 25, 2011, 07:17:02 PM »

But the real question is: who does the better nasal tone: Mike Love or Weird Al Yanovic?
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« Reply #46 on: February 25, 2011, 07:45:05 PM »

Quote
Ok, I'll play dumb here. Why would a vocal technique forum not care about The Beach Boys?

Well, they tend to either be into operatic singing or their own singing.  In any case, they certainly wouldn't be as into as we are here.

Quote
Anybody who tells me Brian sang the chorus of California Girls in full voice is full of merda.  That's falsetto, you don't have to be a vocal expert to know that.

Well, I ask this honestly, did you read any of the links I set up up there?  I mean, I think vocal pedagogues and physiologists can have differing opinions without being full of sh*t.  The voice is a tricky thing to pin down, the thing that produces it buried within our throats.  That said, the distinction is interesting to me, as I've said before, because if we make it, then Brian is that much more impressive a singer.

I suspect the reason Brian calls it falsetto is the same reason most people mistake what he sings as falsetto: because most people aren't voice teachers.  It's not an important distinction to the guy on the street.  It's technical language.  Unless you're going around discussing the ins and outs of technique, there's no reason to be accurate as long as you are understood.  It's like any specialized field.  Being Beachboysologists here, I'd just sort of like to get it right, much like we want to have dates of recording sessions right.  I find it interesting, anyway--I'm always reading books about vocal technique, so it's bound to spill over here.
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« Reply #47 on: February 25, 2011, 07:47:59 PM »

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I think the confusion is because he sang with such a strong falsetto that you can't hear much difference in his power, whereas almost everybody else has never been able to do that.

Yeah, that's actually about right.  A supported head voice is like a strong falsetto--it's above the break like falsetto but the cords/folds adduct.  Falsetto by definition cannot have much power because any power you put in just slips through the loose folds.
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« Reply #48 on: February 25, 2011, 09:03:15 PM »

yeah, but it seems nowadays "falsetto" is the umbrella term. 

i think what's more impressive is his chest voice.  It's easy to jump into head voice and sing beach boys songs, staying in chest voice when brian does is what's awesome.  the way he falls back and forth between head and chest so smoothly on like "don't worry baby" and "we'll run away" is awesome. 

"(head) don't worry (chest) baby, everything thing will turn out alright".

and his head voice on like this song is definitely a mix with chest anyway.  That's where some of that power comes from, that mix.  This is just going off my ears anyway.  And then singing with it to match the tone/power. 

i think what caused some of his nasal/not very good singing in the late 80s/early 90s was him losing a lot of the high chest voice, and he didn't know how to use his voice anymore.

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« Reply #49 on: February 25, 2011, 10:27:32 PM »


Quote
Well, I ask this honestly, did you read any of the links I set up up there?  I mean, I think vocal pedagogues and physiologists can have differing opinions without being full of merda.  The voice is a tricky thing to pin down, the thing that produces it buried within our throats.  That said, the distinction is interesting to me, as I've said before, because if we make it, then Brian is that much more impressive a singer.

I suspect the reason Brian calls it falsetto is the same reason most people mistake what he sings as falsetto: because most people aren't voice teachers.  It's not an important distinction to the guy on the street.  It's technical language.  Unless you're going around discussing the ins and outs of technique, there's no reason to be accurate as long as you are understood.  It's like any specialized field.  Being Beachboysologists here, I'd just sort of like to get it right, much like we want to have dates of recording sessions right.  I find it interesting, anyway--I'm always reading books about vocal technique, so it's bound to spill over here.

So, are you saying that Brian himself doesn't consider what he did falsetto?  He's just dumbing it down for the layperson?
What I'm getting at is, I don't think it's an important distinction to Brian Wilson or Frankie Valli either.
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