Was Dennis a good drummer?

[adamghost]

This thread makes me all kinds of happy.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

No one can deny the greatness of Mr. Buddy Rich! 


This thread is awesome as Dennis and Ringo can never ever get enough props!

Let's not forget for a second that the Beatle who got the most fan mail was and forever be Ringo!!!!

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

This brings up a really interesting larger aesthetic and almost ethical discussion:  What does it mean to be "good" at something?  Is there a difference between excellence and goodness?  Can we separate being a good musician from being a musician that we like, or evokes an emotional response?

First we have to define what music is "for".  When a person plays music, why do they do it?  To satisfy themselves?  To satisfy others?  To glorify God, or to celebrate the harmony of nature if you prefer?  If you give a recital and nobody comes, was it still worth doing?

Did Dennis play drums because it was fulfilling to him personally?  We know he liked bringing music to people.  So he was certainly good at that.  But where does excellence come in here?  I feel like that would be being good for the sake of being good, which Dennis certainly was not.  I would not look at Neal Peart here, but I would turn to the classical world, where musicians reach levels of incredible skill, but are also participating in a very grand and long tradition going back for a millennium, at least.  That type of musician must study in a very peculiar way for many years, and work at it in a different way than a rock or jazz guy would, even if their skill levels are very similar.  But it takes a certain kind of excellence to learn and interpret certain classical music, let us say, a dense fugal Handel masterpiece, which I think transcends being a "good" or "bad" musician.

Now, that said, I think this discussion is well framed thinking teleologically.  Each musician fulfills the end appropriate for each.  And the end is always going to have something to do with human response.  And I certainly think Dennis does that as well as anybody, on Drums, on Keys, singing, whatever.  And that's an important criterion, albeit a somewhat more subjective one than anybody is comfortable with.

Anyway, there you go.

[pancakerecords]

greatestdrummerinthehistoryofmusicwastheoneandonly                 buddyrich    endofstory

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t8-uoTD4fMQ&feature=related

[Ron]

I've never paid attention to Ringo's drumming on Rain, I'll relisten.  Everytime I hear that song, I'm too busy going out of my mind and grinning listening to Paul's incredible bassline.  In my opinion, the best thing he ever played.  

Back to Dennis, I like the comment about how he (and Ringo) let their charisma bleed through into their music.  Dennis is one of those people that even though he made some bad decisions at points in his life, you still love the guy and want the best for him.  I think you'd be hard pressed to find anybody with a bad word to say about Dennis (and if you did find somebody, I'll bet Dennis took his woman or something).  He's just one of those people who's SO cool, that they're irresistable.  Once you get a dose of that, it's impossible to listen to Dennis's music without appreciating it.  

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

greatestdrummerinthehistoryofmusicwastheoneandonly                 buddyrich    endofstory

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t8-uoTD4fMQ&feature=related

Touche, but aren't most musicians insane merdaholes from time to time?

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

This brings up a really interesting larger aesthetic and almost ethical discussion:  What does it mean to be "good" at something?  Is there a difference between excellence and goodness?  Can we separate being a good musician from being a musician that we like, or evokes an emotional response?

First we have to define what music is "for".  When a person plays music, why do they do it?  To satisfy themselves?  To satisfy others?  To glorify God, or to celebrate the harmony of nature if you prefer?  If you give a recital and nobody comes, was it still worth doing?

Did Dennis play drums because it was fulfilling to him personally?  We know he liked bringing music to people.  So he was certainly good at that.  But where does excellence come in here?  I feel like that would be being good for the sake of being good, which Dennis certainly was not.  I would not look at Neal Peart here, but I would turn to the classical world, where musicians reach levels of incredible skill, but are also participating in a very grand and long tradition going back for a millennium, at least.  That type of musician must study in a very peculiar way for many years, and work at it in a different way than a rock or jazz guy would, even if their skill levels are very similar.  But it takes a certain kind of excellence to learn and interpret certain classical music, let us say, a dense fugal Handel masterpiece, which I think transcends being a "good" or "bad" musician.

Now, that said, I think this discussion is well framed thinking teleologically.  Each musician fulfills the end appropriate for each.  And the end is always going to have something to do with human response.  And I certainly think Dennis does that as well as anybody, on Drums, on Keys, singing, whatever.  And that's an important criterion, albeit a somewhat more subjective one than anybody is comfortable with.

Anyway, there you go.

Well, I'd say with rock and roll: there really isn't such a thing as "good"!

Isn't rock and roll all about what you Do rather than what you CAN do?

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

Well, I'd say with rock and roll: there really isn't such a thing as "good"!

Interesting.  If that's true, than that leaves only a few other options.  If there is no good with rock and roll, that means there is only the opposite, only something totally neutral, or some mixture of both.  If there is only bad, then why would anybody listen?  Is neutrality really possible?  Dennis simply was a drummer.  There is no value.  But if there is no value, again, why listen?

If Rock and Roll is about what you DO, then isn't it possible to do it well, or badly?

I don't know the answer to these questions, necessarily, but I'm always interested in defining "good".

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

I think I just meant that for a rock and roll musician what you DO is ultimately more important than what you're capable of doing. Meaning just because you CAN play a hundred scales on guitar in the space of 30 seconds, it doesn't mean that you should always do that and maybe sometimes a simple chord would be a million times more effective! So, a player who has the sense to just play the right chord is perhaps a lot more valuable than one who will insist on demonstrating what their technical capability is at all times.

It is extremely difficult to find drummers who will play as simply as Dennis did. Well, you can find them or force them to play that way, but for them to mean it like Dennis did: well, that's a whole lot harder to come across....

But Dennis is unique. He played drums, and I'm sure it was fun, and was his part in the family business, but I think Dennis first and foremost LIVED for a living. After that, he was a singer/songwriter, then a drummer.

[OneEar/OneEye]

Good shmood.  "Good" is down to the opinion of the beholder.   Do you like it?  Does it move you?  Make you wanna jump up and shout "Yeah!"  Does it do anything for you?  Then it's good.  Period.  No matter what anyone else says.   The most basic three chord stuff (Ramones for example) can be as "good", "great", whatever, as any more complex, virtuosity (Hendrix, Rush, whatever).  
Dennis was a capable drummer at his best.  His musical talents went way beyond that though.  Ringo was way more than just capable - he was excellent, with moments of brilliance.  Totally underrated.  

[oldsurferdude]

greatestdrummerinthehistoryofmusicwastheoneandonly                 buddyrich    endofstory

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t8-uoTD4fMQ&feature=related

another great "solo" performance by Buddy.

[Mikie]

Ricky Fataar could play circles around Dennis Wilson. I saw Ricky play live with the Beach Boys three times in 1973 and 1974. The guy could really play. I remembering asking a girlfriend who went to the early concerts with me, "Who is this guy"? I never knew for a long time why Dennis was standing up front and not behind the drums. But Ricky rocked the joint!

From 1975 to 1982 I saw Dennis play and he usually hit the skins very hard. It was a blast watching him play. When he was intoxicated, he had trouble keeping time (see the 1980 Washington HBO special or Queen Mary '81 for examples) but he was still a lot of fun to watch. You had to be there. The wimin LOVED the guy and when he stood up, they screamed bloody murder! I can see why some of you don't think he was that great of technical drummer, but when the Boys first came on stage and he sauntered across it then jumped up on the drum riser, the sound of his drums boomed across the P.A. system and really rocked the place. California Girls was usually the first song and people stood up for the first 3 0r 4 songs then sat down. I enjoyed the hell out of watching Dennis.

When I think of Dennis playing with the Boys, I think immediately of those live shows in the 70's in San Francisco, Oakland, and Sacramento. I also think of his playing on the March '64 Lost Concert footage (kinda back asswards) and the '64 concert album.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

Too bad Brian didn't ever hire this guy onto a session:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v0V4Aqs2D48&feature=related

[Jay]

Was Dennis a good drummer? One of the things that made me start to ask myself that question  was the version of "Don't Worry Baby" from Long Beach, 1981. First of all, he plays the beat for "Be My Baby". It kind of fits...but it's not the proper beat/rhythm for the song. Also, before the chorus of "Don't Worry Baby", he plays the exact same little drum fill. Every single time right before the chorus starts. He plays the same thing...the exact same amount of beats.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

Ricky Fataar also played the Don't Worry Baby beat "wrong" on the In Concert album. Carl also sang the chorus "wrong"

In fact, live The Beach Boys almost never stuck to what was on the recording drum-wise! Lots of bands/drummers don't.

BTW, hasn't Bob Dylan played just about all his songs "wrong" at every single show he's ever played??

[Austin]

Is there much info out there on what equipment Dennis used/preferred? I've been listening to Live in London recently and it's just hit me how killer that snare sounds.

[Don_Zabu]

Ricky Fataar also played the Don't Worry Baby beat "wrong" on the In Concert album. Carl also sang the chorus "wrong"

Just for context's sake, here's the recording in question on the off chance that somebody hasn't heard it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4EktgvCE1A

[Jon Stebbins]

Was Dennis a good drummer? One of the things that made me start to ask myself that question  was the version of "Don't Worry Baby" from Long Beach, 1981. First of all, he plays the beat for "Be My Baby". It kind of fits...but it's not the proper beat/rhythm for the song. Also, before the chorus of "Don't Worry Baby", he plays the exact same little drum fill. Every single time right before the chorus starts. He plays the same thing...the exact same amount of beats.

Dennis played the drums on the BB's hit recording of Don't Worry Baby in '64, so i guess if anyone on earth is at liberty to play it "wrong" it would be him.

[Jay]

Was Dennis a good drummer? One of the things that made me start to ask myself that question  was the version of "Don't Worry Baby" from Long Beach, 1981. First of all, he plays the beat for "Be My Baby". It kind of fits...but it's not the proper beat/rhythm for the song. Also, before the chorus of "Don't Worry Baby", he plays the exact same little drum fill. Every single time right before the chorus starts. He plays the same thing...the exact same amount of beats.

Dennis played the drums on the BB's hit recording of Don't Worry Baby in '64, so i guess if anyone on earth is at liberty to play it "wrong" it would be him.

Check, and mate. 

[Jay]

Ricky Fataar could play circles around Dennis Wilson. I saw Ricky play live with the Beach Boys three times in 1973 and 1974. The guy could really play. I remembering asking a girlfriend who went to the early concerts with me, "Who is this guy"? I never knew for a long time why Dennis was standing up front and not behind the drums. But Ricky rocked the joint!

From 1975 to 1982 I saw Dennis play and he usually hit the skins very hard. It was a blast watching him play. When he was intoxicated, he had trouble keeping time (see the 1980 Washington HBO special or Queen Mary '81 for examples) but he was still a lot of fun to watch. You had to be there. The wimin LOVED the guy and when he stood up, they screamed bloody murder! I can see why some of you don't think he was that great of technical drummer, but when the Boys first came on stage and he sauntered across it then jumped up on the drum riser, the sound of his drums boomed across the P.A. system and really rocked the place. California Girls was usually the first song and people stood up for the first 3 0r 4 songs then sat down. I enjoyed the hell out of watching Dennis.

When I think of Dennis playing with the Boys, I think immediately of those live shows in the 70's in San Francisco, Oakland, and Sacramento. I also think of his playing on the March '64 Lost Concert footage (kinda back asswards) and the '64 concert album.

Man, I really envy you.  I just got a nice collection of 1970's shows that they did. I'd have to say that 1970-1975 is now probably my favorite period for concerts.

[kookadams]

Anyone to criticize Dennis' drumming obviously isnt a drummer. Dennis Wilson was and is the reason I picked up a pair of drumsticks. f*** technical sh*t; Dennis was and will forever be the definitive rock drummer in my book. RIP.

[adamghost]

I've never paid attention to Ringo's drumming on Rain, I'll relisten.  Everytime I hear that song, I'm too busy going out of my mind and grinning listening to Paul's incredible bassline.  In my opinion, the best thing he ever played.  

Back to Dennis, I like the comment about how he (and Ringo) let their charisma bleed through into their music.  Dennis is one of those people that even though he made some bad decisions at points in his life, you still love the guy and want the best for him.  I think you'd be hard pressed to find anybody with a bad word to say about Dennis (and if you did find somebody, I'll bet Dennis took his woman or something).  He's just one of those people who's SO cool, that they're irresistable.  Once you get a dose of that, it's impossible to listen to Dennis's music without appreciating it.  

Living in L.A., I meet random people who encountered Dennis and have a story about him ALL THE TIME.  Not just in the music world, just totally random stuff including two of the lawyers that worked at the law firm I used to work for.  He seemed to bump into half the people that lived in Southern California at one point or another.  And yeah, EVERYBODY loved the guy.

[Mikie]

Man, I really envy you.  I just got a nice collection of 1970's shows that they did. I'd have to say that 1970-1975 is now probably my favorite period for concerts.

Collect 'em all! Trade 'em with your friends! It was (in my opinion) the best time to be a Beach Boys fan. I do wish I'd seen a few of the '70 - '72 shows like some of the posters here did.

One of my favorite Dennis moments was in Oakland. He stands up, surveys the crowd, and says real close into the mic: "Look at all the big t*ts!". I kid you not. The crowd roared! 

[kirt]

  To my personal taste in music,it's not how fast you are,how you can bend notes,how much range you have,but what sounds good. Just because you can ,doesn't mean you should. So many singers today twist and bend notes and ruin any form of melody. And drumming and guitar playing it's the same thing. You can over sing,over drum and over shred.   
  Dennis is GREAT!

[Menace Wilson]

I'm a drummer myself, and while I do love the way Dennis played most of the time, there are times when he let the tempo drift, and not necessarily in a good way.  I'm thinking of things like "Farmer's Daughter," where he begins to slow down halfway through.  Probably not something non-drummer would necessarily notice though.