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Author Topic: Was Dennis a good drummer?  (Read 21710 times)
TdHabib
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« Reply #25 on: February 23, 2011, 12:22:10 PM »

Ringo and Dennis are actually similar drummers in some respects--they both kept it simple when they needed it to (Ringo's very tasteful when he does add in some fills) and of course, very deep pockets for both of them. Ringo has a bit more flash/polish, but emotionally it's a dead heat---they are both terrific.
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I like the Beatles a bit more than the Boys of Beach, I think Brian's band is the tops---really amazing. And finally, I'm liberal. That's it.
Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again
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« Reply #26 on: February 23, 2011, 01:17:51 PM »

Ringo is perhaps the greatest rock and roll/pop drummer of all time!

I dare ANY drummer (Neil Peart types/Tony Williams types included) to sit down cold and attempt to do what Ringo does in "Oh Darlin" Those insane fills in the build ups! I've been playing drums for about 20 years and can't figure out what the merda the guy's doing, but it feels soooooo great and kicks so much ass! I don't know anyone who can play those parts (aside from this one guy on youtube) Now, if that's not a clue as to what makes a good drummer or not, I dunno what is.

I've blathered it before, but I really believe Ringo and Dennis both INVENTED modern rock drumming! Before those guys burst on the scene, drummers in rock and roll were mostly jazz or big band guys slumming it and playing traditional grip with a very light snare/kick, but heavy ride action. Then kids everywhere are suddenly watching Dennis and Ringo on TV where it's all about the forceful kick and cracking upbeat on the snare!!! How many kids saw these cats and decided to take up the drums???

I rest my case.

So, maybe the real discussion should be: is Mike a good singer???

J/K

« Last Edit: February 23, 2011, 01:20:20 PM by Erik H » Logged
adamghost
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« Reply #27 on: February 23, 2011, 02:12:03 PM »

I think "was Brian a good singer?" would be an interesting thread, actually.  In light of what's happened to his voice in the intervening years, people have taken a closer look at his '60s recordings and pointed out that he always had his flaws, but he made it work a certain way in his '20s that's compelling.
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adamghost
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« Reply #28 on: February 23, 2011, 02:16:11 PM »

Ringo is perhaps the greatest rock and roll/pop drummer of all time!

I dare ANY drummer (Neil Peart types/Tony Williams types included) to sit down cold and attempt to do what Ringo does in "Oh Darlin" Those insane fills in the build ups! I've been playing drums for about 20 years and can't figure out what the merda the guy's doing, but it feels soooooo great and kicks so much ass! I don't know anyone who can play those parts (aside from this one guy on youtube) Now, if that's not a clue as to what makes a good drummer or not, I dunno what is.

I've blathered it before, but I really believe Ringo and Dennis both INVENTED modern rock drumming! Before those guys burst on the scene, drummers in rock and roll were mostly jazz or big band guys slumming it and playing traditional grip with a very light snare/kick, but heavy ride action. Then kids everywhere are suddenly watching Dennis and Ringo on TV where it's all about the forceful kick and cracking upbeat on the snare!!! How many kids saw these cats and decided to take up the drums???

I rest my case.

So, maybe the real discussion should be: is Mike a good singer???

J/K



Correct me if I'm wrong, Erik -- I'm only a mid-level Beatles obsessive -- but wasn't Ringo left handed?  And that's why a lot of his fills are ass-backwards?

Come to think of it, and we have Dennis, who is right handed, playing left hand to the hi-hat. So both these guys basically played the drums backwards.  This probably had something to do with the less is more attitude.  There were probably some things they couldn't do (I play drums the same way Dennis does, albeit poorly, and I can testify that a lot of finesse stuff goes out the window when your weak hand is playing the hi-hat, but your snare kills).
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Jon Stebbins
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« Reply #29 on: February 23, 2011, 02:23:22 PM »

Ringo is perhaps the greatest rock and roll/pop drummer of all time!

I dare ANY drummer (Neil Peart types/Tony Williams types included) to sit down cold and attempt to do what Ringo does in "Oh Darlin" Those insane fills in the build ups! I've been playing drums for about 20 years and can't figure out what the merda the guy's doing, but it feels soooooo great and kicks so much ass! I don't know anyone who can play those parts (aside from this one guy on youtube) Now, if that's not a clue as to what makes a good drummer or not, I dunno what is.

I've blathered it before, but I really believe Ringo and Dennis both INVENTED modern rock drumming! Before those guys burst on the scene, drummers in rock and roll were mostly jazz or big band guys slumming it and playing traditional grip with a very light snare/kick, but heavy ride action. Then kids everywhere are suddenly watching Dennis and Ringo on TV where it's all about the forceful kick and cracking upbeat on the snare!!! How many kids saw these cats and decided to take up the drums???

I rest my case.

So, maybe the real discussion should be: is Mike a good singer???

J/K


Eric H...that is a very perceptive post. I agree that the visual image and sound of "rock drummer" really begins with Ringo and Dennis. I doubt many kids were wishing they were Dave Clark or Charlie Watts, not because the DC5 and Stones records weren't great, they were...but the thing that Ringo and Dennis had is that they both had natural charisma and their drumming styles projected it. While Clark seemed too show bizzy and Watts looked like he was falling asleep...Ringo and Dennis seemed natural, engaged, into it, but not phony at all...and they didn't feel like backline support...they seemed like equals in their band...and the camera loved them that's for sure. Everybody copied them. Keith Moon died his hair blond cause he wanted to be Dennis.

I'm as big a Dennis fan as there is, and I know the Beatles aren't real popular with many on this board, but I'd have to agree with Eric that Ringo is the top guy. Ringo had a way of swinging that was unmatched in rock. His early fills could be fairly clunky (see Please Please Me) but he had a really unique and sparkly sound and he always locked in with McCartney which gave the Beatles a great feel. Dennis was way more erratic, and he rarely locked in with anybody, including himself. He was like a wild horse, hard to ride, but if you could stay with him it was going to be fun!! Check out Dance Dance Dance from the TAMI Show...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F74pEzgTA8I
Some people might view this as a disaster as Dennis has no interest in locking in, he's just balls out, see if you can stay with me. He PUSHES the band like a race car barely able to make the next corner. That was Dennis. He could dial all that back and play it cool, as in another Dance Dance Dance example here...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ug0riKTwSaE&feature=related Dennis played great on many studio tracks, and his feel, when somewhat contained, is truly great. But his LIVE preference in the early days was to go crazy back there. That probably drove Brian nuts right?

Dennis and Ringo were similar in that they moved some of the main focus onto The Drummer in a band, and as many of you said, they were perfect for their respective band's style. But Ringo was reliable and comical, Dennis was a sex beast wild man. I think the feel/sound of Ringo and the aura/image of Dennis ended being the blueprint for the quintessential rock drummer.
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Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again
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« Reply #30 on: February 23, 2011, 02:26:00 PM »

Adam, you're right: Ringo was a left handed drummer who played "right handed" and Dennis essential played some modified "left handed" technique while being right handed.

I think in Dennis case, he probably just felt he could whack the snare a whole lot harder with his right hand. He was a strong guy who played sports/knew how to toss a ball, so it probably felt natural to nail the upbeat down with his stronger hand.

The conventional drumming ethos is that you should use your good hand for all the complicated triplet crap on the ride/hi-hat and for complicated flailing fills/rolls that you start with (and end with) your good hand.... More of a jazz ethos really, as I've said before, the snare was always more of an accent instrument than the main thing your whole attack is built around, as is the case with rock/pop!

It's funny. I'm left handed and have always played a right handed set, and so many years of this have made my right hand much more coordinated than my left!!!!

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Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again
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« Reply #31 on: February 23, 2011, 02:34:09 PM »

Jon, maybe you can help: there's this footage that used to be on youtube where the Beach Boys are playing in Hawaii (can't remember what island) in, I think 1980! Dennis is amazingly solid in this footage. He shaven and looking great. The band is really sloppy otherwise, but Dennis is really on it! Probably the best I've seen him play.

If I could find these clips, I'd post them as irrefutable proof the guy could PLAY when he focused.
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Jon Stebbins
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« Reply #32 on: February 23, 2011, 02:41:50 PM »

Jon, maybe you can help: there's this footage that used to be on youtube where the Beach Boys are playing in Hawaii (can't remember what island) in, I think 1980! Dennis is amazingly solid in this footage. He shaven and looking great. The band is really sloppy otherwise, but Dennis is really on it! Probably the best I've seen him play.

If I could find these clips, I'd post them as irrefutable proof the guy could PLAY when he focused.
I think you're referring to the Mike Douglas show, 1980, filmed on Waikiki beach. Dennis is wearing a visor. Bruce is there on piano, Bobby F. is there too playing percussion. Some of the '76 Its OK footage from Anaheim is a good example that Dennis was solid in those days too. I have a '77 L.A. Forum show on video that has a performance of Roller Skating Child in which Dennis is a virtual rock-beat machine, his snare hits are like canons going off, and the band sounds so damn good around him. He could definitely play.
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Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again
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« Reply #33 on: February 23, 2011, 02:45:20 PM »

Man, I love that 76 "It's OK" footage!

My favorite Beach Boys period, I must admit.
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adamghost
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« Reply #34 on: February 23, 2011, 02:47:25 PM »

Jon might correct me on this, but I would argue that Dennis became much more of a "lock" player after he came back in '74.  I love the groove on a lot of the '76-77 Wilson-only basics.  It may be something similar to the Def Leppard situation (albeit much less drastic) where he had less ability to do fills because of his hand injury, and became more beat-focused.  I'm just speculating, but to me the '70s Dennis has much more of a pocket than pre-accident Dennis.  A lot of what I love about his drumming is his playing in the late '70s.
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Ron
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« Reply #35 on: February 23, 2011, 02:53:50 PM »

I get a real kick out of watching Dennis drum on the Knebworth DVD. Man is he hitting those skins hard or what? The intro to California Girls is priceless... ***BUH BUH BUH BUH BUH*** I really like his drumming style throughout his career but I'm sure there were plenty of concerts where he was too far out of it and played quite sloppy (hence the extra/sober drummer).

Trying not to steer away from the topic at hand... but Ringo was a freaking awesome drummer. I think his playing and influence goes beyond being the "perfect drummer for the band he was in". Not saying that Mike's Beard was leaning towards it, but I've never understood the "Ringo was an amateur drummer" argument.

Yeah, me neither.  Ringo's one of the best ever.  I think most drummers concede that as well.  Wasn't really flashy but an awesome drummer.  My favorite is probably "Day Tripper" whoo the drums are great on that. 
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Ron
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« Reply #36 on: February 23, 2011, 03:00:40 PM »

Re: Ringo...they say his time was nearly flawless.  And man, that's the whole point, isn't it?  I mean, I know professional drummers that can play amazing fills but can't really keep time very well.

Yeah, I listened to his famous 'solo' on Golden Slumbers/The End the other day, there's not much to it but the whole while in the background "bapbapbapbapbapbapbapbapbapbapbapbapbap" dead on some wildass tempo while he solos around it.  Fantastic at keeping the beat steady.  I read an article once praising his drumming, and they claimed that out of all the studio tapes and all the takes that broke apart because somebody screwed something up, it was only Ringo 2 or 3 times.  Also they lauded his ability to play the different styles the guys wrote, and especially John's stuff.  John had strange time signatures on many of his songs, and even had one or two that dropped a beat out in the middle of the track apparently?  Not sure if it was spliced that way or just written that way.  I know what song they're talking about but can't think of it right now, it misses a beat right in the middle of the song. 

Anways, simple tricks anybody can learn but Ringo developed those tracks. 

Back to Dennis, the Beach Boys didn't need the worlds greatest drummer, he was a hell of an asset to the band and became as good as he needed to be.  A lot of the later sloppy drumming he did live appeared to me to be more based on him screwing around, then him not being capable of pulling it off.  Also didn't Hal Blaine claim he was a great drummer?  I'll take that endorsement anyday. 
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Jon Stebbins
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« Reply #37 on: February 23, 2011, 03:15:08 PM »

Jon might correct me on this, but I would argue that Dennis became much more of a "lock" player after he came back in '74.  I love the groove on a lot of the '76-77 Wilson-only basics.  It may be something similar to the Def Leppard situation (albeit much less drastic) where he had less ability to do fills because of his hand injury, and became more beat-focused.  I'm just speculating, but to me the '70s Dennis has much more of a pocket than pre-accident Dennis.  A lot of what I love about his drumming is his playing in the late '70s.
You are right, his locking capability actually started surfacing more in '68 to '71, and definitely was there in '75 - '77, maybe for the very reason you stated. it became a kind of hit and miss(no pun) thing once he was so substance addled, but you could still see it in there, just not as consistent. My "wild horse" comparison really pertains to 1964 Dennis vs. 1964 Ringo. Nothing is black and white, but Dennis did have pocket player flair as well. He just had consistency issues.
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Ron
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« Reply #38 on: February 23, 2011, 03:27:56 PM »

Re: Ringo, was it John who, when asked if Ringo was the best drummer in the world, laughed and said "Ringo isn't even the best drummer in the Beatles!"

Yes, that's John for you.  An incredibly dry sense of Humour, and one of his best quotes.  John loved Ringo however and I'm sure intended it as a joke.  Didn't he (and the Beatles) basically beg Ringo to be in the Beatles?  In Liverpool Ringo was the man, everybody wanted him in their band.  

John did an interview with Rolling Stone (the day? a few days?) shortly before he died.  When asked about Ringo he said "Ringo's a Damn Good Drummer.  He was always a good drummer.  He's not technically good, but I think Ringo's drumming is underrated the same way Paul's Bass playing is underrated.  Paul and Ringo stand up anywhere with any of the rock musicians"

Still one of the greatest quotes of all time though, lol.  

In my opinion, the greatest thing about Ringo's playing is it's selfless.  He never told a single person he was a great drummer.  He never tried to be showy or over the top, never soloed.  When John came to him and wanted to do something like "I'm Only Sleeping", Ringo played it the way John wrote it.  When Paul brought him "Let it Be", Ringo played it the way Paul wrote it.  When George brought him songs with Sitars and indian instruments, again Ringo played it the way George wrote it.  Who the hell else would have pulled all that off?  His ability to make his job not about himself but about the song is admirable.  

I really like mr. Stebbins comments on this, well said. 
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Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again
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« Reply #39 on: February 23, 2011, 03:30:37 PM »

Dennis also provided some really really good session guy type drumming for the 15 Big Ones album. I know no one expects anything great drum-wise on that album, but he does some really cool stuff, and more interesting little fills than usual. Listening to him on A Casual Look, for instance, always makes me smile. What he does coming out of the bridge is pure magic!
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the captain
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« Reply #40 on: February 23, 2011, 03:31:28 PM »

Neil Peart types/Tony Williams types
Tony Williams, as in Miles Davis Quintet? I hope you meant to say there is a Neil Peart type, and there is a separate Tony Williams type. Because certainly they can't be considered the same type. What Williams was doing on, say, Miles Smiles, is just fabulous. Sure, he was technically brilliant, but also every bit as sympathetic as a Ringo Starr. Generally speaking, though, I'm in the camp of the feel-drummers. Technical drumming is overwhelmingly dull to me. (Ditto for most technical rock guitar, keyboard, or anything else, though. I respect it ... I just don't enjoy it.)
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« Reply #41 on: February 23, 2011, 04:00:15 PM »

Yes, there certainly IS a Neal Peart type! Have you ever had the displeasure of holding open drummer auditions? Trust me: they come out of the woodwork!

I only mentioned Tony Williams as a jazz type and because, in my opinion, he's the greatest drummer ever to live.
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the captain
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« Reply #42 on: February 23, 2011, 04:17:53 PM »

Whew. I just wanted to make sure you didn't think those two were one and the same type.
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« Reply #43 on: February 23, 2011, 04:21:42 PM »

Ha! Neal Peart wishes they were of the same type!!!

Tony was the greatest! Could any other drummer of his technical ability ever manage to just play that simple hi-hat groove on 98% of the In A Silent Way album???

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« Reply #44 on: February 23, 2011, 04:26:05 PM »

I think that 'Rain' showcases Ringo at his best!
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« Reply #45 on: February 23, 2011, 04:36:50 PM »

He's great on "Rain".  I've also always loved how he stops on a dime and switches time signatures in "She Said, She Said".  Mike Portnoy once said that the drum part to "Everybody's Got Something To Hide Except For Me & My Monkey" was among the most difficult parts he's ever had to learn.
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« Reply #46 on: February 23, 2011, 05:44:19 PM »

Plus, lest we forget, Ringo looked really cool in the Help! movie when he's playing in the studio with a cigarette hanging out of his mouth!
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« Reply #47 on: February 23, 2011, 05:54:24 PM »

Let's not forget, too, that both Ringo and Dennis excelled at putting across their PERSONALITY in those mid-60s performances and interviews. Ringo was one of the funniest of the Beatles (hell, he's the star of Hard Day's Night). Dennis was the most magnetic of the BBs, and did some serious acting (Two Lane Blacktop).

Each of them understood, in a really simple way, the showmanship of being the man behind the drums, and each had a simple, open charisma that included everyone. Lennon, for example, was snarky -- he obviously had contempt for a certain kind of Beatlefan. And Mike, in later years, certainly made generalizations about uberfans of the BBs' experimental material. But both Dennis and Ringo liked nearly everything their bands did -- and really, each was the biggest fan of their respective bands inside the bands!

I mean, Dennis sacrificed a solo career to stay with his group. Ringo would have stayed in the Beatles forever. They both are, in a way, the emblems of their groups.
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« Reply #48 on: February 23, 2011, 06:00:35 PM »

I'm not musically knowledgable enough to comment on the drumming techniques, but the Beach Boys had an incredible live energy when Dennis was drumming that has gone unmatched since his death in '83. Even concerts in the early 80's when he was under the influence, the band could still rock! They never rocked quite the same way ever again. He brought a great energy the way he pounded the drums. For my money, Bobby F. comes the closest, but Dennis's contribution will be forever measured by the fact the BB never again sounded the same live with that energy  after his death
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« Reply #49 on: February 23, 2011, 06:03:48 PM »

greatestdrummerinthehistoryofmusicwastheoneandonly                 buddyrich    endofstory
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