Was Dennis a good drummer?

[Jay]

It seems to me that from around 1978 on Dennis became a pretty poor drummer in live concerts. Especially at the Knebworth 1980 concert, and pretty much every live recording that I have heard from that period on. I was just watching the Seattle 1983 video and I was surprised at just how bad he was playing. He just seemed to be banging away, with no real regard to being "technically correct". One every uptempo song he seemed to play basically the same cymbal and drum "crash, boom, crash, boom etc" beat. What do you guys think? Did his alcoholism and drug problems make him playing get worse over time?

[stack-o-tracks]

He played some great stuff on their early records and in early live performances. Like the TAMI Show.

Seems like he wasn't the same drummer towards the end. Could have something to do with the various injuries to his hands & feet throughout the years, but I'm sure there are more reasons. Some concerts it doesn't even look like his drum set is even set up with mics.

[Jay]

Some concerts it doesn't even look like his drum set is even set up with mics.

On the Seattle 1983 film, Mike Kowalski plays on a second drum kit along with Dennis, but I can't really make out two distinct drummers at once.

[XY]

With all respect, he was never a great drummer. He played really good live in the late 60's/early 70's, but after his hand injury, kind of lost it. He drummed with a lot of energy, fun to watch, but technically, played really poor. Knebworth for example, Keith Moon-energy, but otherwise, not that great. TAMI Show? Full power, but a simple backbeat.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

Dennis was a great drummer!

If you just got home from a Neil Peart drum clinic at Guitar Center and you pop in the Knebworth DVD, sure, you'll think he sucks, but he played what was right and good for the Beach Boys, and he was completely in tune with Brian's really heavy bottom-y, rolling  piano/songwriting style.

Dennis was pretty much self taught and he often bettered live what guys like Hal Blaine and Jim Gordon put down in the studio as professional session musicians. Not to mention all the great tracks he, himself provided for many many great Beach Boys songs.

Sure, he was more of a clubber than an "artist" but his playing simply felt good! Watching him on the Knebworth DVD, I think he kicks ass. He was a bit sloppy, sure, but he was doing a lot of goofing off and playing around, which affected his playing a bit, but it was a live gig and they all seemed to be having fun. I'm sure this translated to the audience.... Therefore Dennis was doing his job and doing it well!

It's funny how the best drummers: the most necessary and useful, are the ones who can play a simple straight beat, not lose it, and make it feel really good. But no one talks about them or charts out their playing in drum magazines.... But who really cares?

[Jason]

I don't often use such rudimentary terms to describe my disdain for any specific musician, but Neil Peart fucking sucks. Yes, I know he's a technical wizard. Yes, I know he has about two dozen different drums in his setup. His playing is boring as fucking hell.

[Mike's Beard]

I'd put Dennis in the same league as Ringo Starr - perfect drummer for the band they were in.

[WWDWD?]

I get a real kick out of watching Dennis drum on the Knebworth DVD. Man is he hitting those skins hard or what? The intro to California Girls is priceless... ***BUH BUH BUH BUH BUH*** I really like his drumming style throughout his career but I'm sure there were plenty of concerts where he was too far out of it and played quite sloppy (hence the extra/sober drummer).

Trying not to steer away from the topic at hand... but Ringo was a freaking awesome drummer. I think his playing and influence goes beyond being the "perfect drummer for the band he was in". Not saying that Mike's Beard was leaning towards it, but I've never understood the "Ringo was an amateur drummer" argument.

[WWDWD?]

I'd put Dennis in the same league as Ringo Starr - perfect drummer for the band they were in.

Sorry, I may have taken that the wrong way. 
They were perfect drummers for the band they were in... which were THE perfect bands.

[The Heartical Don]

It seems to me that from around 1978 on Dennis became a pretty poor drummer in live concerts. Especially at the Knebworth 1980 concert, and pretty much every live recording that I have heard from that period on. I was just watching the Seattle 1983 video and I was surprised at just how bad he was playing. He just seemed to be banging away, with no real regard to being "technically correct". One every uptempo song he seemed to play basically the same cymbal and drum "crash, boom, crash, boom etc" beat. What do you guys think? Did his alcoholism and drug problems make him playing get worse over time?

Don't know about the reasons, but -

I am not fond of his work on the 1973 live set. Esp. in songs like 'Help Me Rhonda', he smashes the entire song to smithereens (in an insensitive way). Perhaps other songs by other artists fare better by such an approach, but the BBs catalogue deserves better, IMHO.

[stack-o-tracks]

It seems to me that from around 1978 on Dennis became a pretty poor drummer in live concerts. Especially at the Knebworth 1980 concert, and pretty much every live recording that I have heard from that period on. I was just watching the Seattle 1983 video and I was surprised at just how bad he was playing. He just seemed to be banging away, with no real regard to being "technically correct". One every uptempo song he seemed to play basically the same cymbal and drum "crash, boom, crash, boom etc" beat. What do you guys think? Did his alcoholism and drug problems make him playing get worse over time?

Don't know about the reasons, but -

I am not fond of his work on the 1973 live set. Esp. in songs like 'Help Me Rhonda', he smashes the entire song to smithereens (in an insensitive way). Perhaps other songs by other artists fare better by such an approach, but the BBs catalogue deserves better, IMHO.

Wasn't Ricky Fataar drumming for them in 1973?

[The Heartical Don]

It seems to me that from around 1978 on Dennis became a pretty poor drummer in live concerts. Especially at the Knebworth 1980 concert, and pretty much every live recording that I have heard from that period on. I was just watching the Seattle 1983 video and I was surprised at just how bad he was playing. He just seemed to be banging away, with no real regard to being "technically correct". One every uptempo song he seemed to play basically the same cymbal and drum "crash, boom, crash, boom etc" beat. What do you guys think? Did his alcoholism and drug problems make him playing get worse over time?

Don't know about the reasons, but -

I am not fond of his work on the 1973 live set. Esp. in songs like 'Help Me Rhonda', he smashes the entire song to smithereens (in an insensitive way). Perhaps other songs by other artists fare better by such an approach, but the BBs catalogue deserves better, IMHO.

Wasn't Ricky Fataar drumming for them in 1973?

Ai... should I stand corrected? AGD, help!

[adamghost]

That's Ricky Fataar, not Dennis.  MILES different drummer.  And, it has been discussed on other forums, there's some question whether his approach was superior to Dennis' on the older material.

I never get tired of banging this drum (so to speak):  Dennis Wilson was one of my very favorite drummers.  Why?  Because he understood that a drummer needs to know four things:  start, 2, 4, end.  That's ALL that is necessary, about 75% of the time.  And Dennis could make a simple drum part sound like the end of the friggin' world.

Let me show you why Dennis was a great drummer.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJFd_i2gOdk -- "Only With You" on the HOLLAND album.  The drums are understated, basic.  And Ricky sounds bored out of his mind, even though he plays beautifully.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KoYk2mgE8A8 -- "I Wanna Pick You Up" on the LOVE YOU album.  Dennis this time.  The drums are even MORE basic.  And yet they SLAM.  And the whole track slams.  Dennis doesn't have the chops to play footsy with the beat.  So he just puts everything he has into what he can do.  (It didn't seem fair to point to the monster kick snare of "Honkin' Down The Highway" -- that's almost cheating)

Now I grant you, some of the difference is in Earle Mankey's engineering skills, but even so, you need a particular kind of drummer with a particular kind of attitude to get that slamming of a sound.  Part of what makes it slam is the simplicity, but you can't just zone out.  You have to really lay into the drums and also want to play like that.  I can tell you this because when I want that kind of sound on my own records...I play it myself!  Because I cannot find a "real" drummer who understands how to do it.  And live?  Yeah, he was erratic, but he also added fire.  When he was on, he was amazing.  Sadly, the on days were more and more rare from 1980 on...but even on KNEBWORTH, what he loses on technical points (and keep in mind he'd only been back in the band for a very short time at that point), he gains in just making the band compelling.

Don't believe me?  Then let me play for you one of the greatest drummers of all time, Mr. Al Jackson, Jr.:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l73FkH3v7yg

Technically, he and Dennis are on complete opposite sides of the spectrum.  But they accomplish the same thing with the same approach.  Keep it simple, keep the beat, and kill it.  It slams.

My two favorite drummers in rock 'n' roll.  I guarantee you with either of those guys behind the skins, the whole room is a movin'.

[adamghost]

Re: Ringo...they say his time was nearly flawless.  And man, that's the whole point, isn't it?  I mean, I know professional drummers that can play amazing fills but can't really keep time very well.

[LostArt]

Great posts, Adam.  I agree 100%.  Rock n' roll was never about technical skills (until maybe the prog/fusion era, which most would say isn't really r n' r...I shan't go there).  It was about having fun and kickin' ass.  Yeah, Dennis, man.  He had it.  I loved the days when you could listen to a drummer and know immediately who it was.  Dennis, Ringo, Bonham, Moon.  You don't hear guys like that anymore.

[kirt]

I think I read it in the Preiss book, Dorinda Morgan said something along  the lines, she found it refreshing that Dennis played without a lot of fills that so many drummers ,recording at her studio ,were using at the time.


Sometimes less is more.

[c-man]

Two great examples of great late-period Dennis live drumming:  the Midnight Special (1979, especially on Good Vibrations and Rock 'n' Roll Music), and Washington D.C. (1980, especially Sloop John B. for instance...a drummer friend of mine saw that and said, "He was a GREAT drummer").  Also Long Beach 1981 (Do It Again, School Days).   Unfortuantely he was drunk at a lot of the post 1977 shows, but those examples IMO show him playing with fire and gusto.

[pixletwin]

I don't often use such rudimentary terms to describe my disdain for any specific musician, but Neil Peart friggin' sucks. Yes, I know he's a technical wizard. Yes, I know he has about two dozen different drums in his setup. His playing is boring as friggin' hell.

Testify!!!! 

[mtaber]

Re: Ringo, was it John who, when asked if Ringo was the best drummer in the world, laughed and said "Ringo isn't even the best drummer in the Beatles!"

[rogerlancelot]

I don't often use such rudimentary terms to describe my disdain for any specific musician, but Neil Peart friggin' sucks. Yes, I know he's a technical wizard. Yes, I know he has about two dozen different drums in his setup. His playing is boring as friggin' hell.

Testify!!!! 

I have to disagree here. I think Neil Peart is one of the most exciting drummers I have ever seen live in concert. Other favorite drummers of mine include Ringo, Bill Bruford, any of Zappa's drummers from about 1973 on, Bonham, Moon, etc. And I enjoy DW's performances on the Long Beach '81 and Seattle '83 shows.

Least favorite drummers? How about Tommy Lee from Motley Crue and Lars Ulrich from Metallica? Both are very overrated in my opinion. Also the double drumming of the Grateful Dead used to disintegrate in concert a lot. Nick Mason is kind of boring on drums but I still loves me some Floyd. Peter Chris was very sloppy but that was supposed to be alcohol induced. Some of the worst drumming I have seen (and heard) was John Lennon in the Let It Be movie trying to play along with "Octopus's Garden".

[Mark Dillon]

For some great Dennis drumming, how about "When I Grow Up (To Be Man)" and "Girl Don't Tell Me"?

[Jon Stebbins]

Its fun to talk about Dennis' drumming...but the way this thread premise is posed seems kind of stupid to me. try this...

WAS BRIAN A GOOD SINGER?

It seems to me that from around 1976 on Brian became a pretty poor singer in live concerts. Especially at the Queen Mary 1981 concert, and pretty much every live recording that I have heard from that period on. etc... etc... etc...

Back to the subject at hand...Dennis was a great drummer. His feel and power were among the best in 60's/'70's rock. Watch the '69 Olympia concert... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8vJT5TyMEwI
His drumming has been complimented by so many other drummers (Hal Blaine, Max Weinberg, Taylor Hawkins etc...) not to mention Bobby Fig. Ricky F. and Mike K. who all loved the way Dennis played. But I don't need any expert to tell me he was good. The way he played always felt right. It enhanced the music and never got in the way. It was never about technique, he didn't really have any, he just played with heart. To me a concert like Knebworth '80 illustrates that he was by far the most passionate Beach Boy, and to watch him play, sloppy as it may be at times, is pure rock and roll joy. He gave the Beach Boys their testicles for sure. I was watching Seattle '83 with a friend, and Dennis is not in good shape, his stamina is gone...but we were laughing at how hard Mike Kowalski was working to keep up with Dennis, who just floors it on every song, with the least amount of wasted motion...he just powers his way through. Dennis was at his best from mid '64 until Brian started making him play soft in '66. And then again he was great from '68 when they got a brass section until '71 when he hurt his hand. When he comes back he's pretty damn good from '75 until '80 or '81...then its down hill for sure. But to ask "Is Dennis A Good Drummer?" Ask yourself this...do you like the drums on the studio recordings of these songs?
Surfer Girl
Catch A Wave
Hawaii
Little Saint Nick
The Warmth of The Sun
Don't Worry Baby
I Get Around
All Summer Long
Little Honda
Wendy
Girls On The Beach
Dance Dance Dance
When I Grow Up To Be A Man
Then I Kissed Her
Girl Don't Tell Me
You're So Good To Me
That's Not Me
I Can Hear Music
and on and on and on...

Dennis plays the drums on all of those classic songs, and so many more before and after the ones I listed.

Brian sang real good on those songs too...so ...Was Brian a good singer? Yes.

[Mike's Beard]

Re: Ringo...they say his time was nearly flawless.  And man, that's the whole point, isn't it?  I mean, I know professional drummers that can play amazing fills but can't really keep time very well.

I love Ringo's drumming style. His drums on "Helter Skelter" blows me away everytime I hear it! Technically it's pretty bad and many a session drummer would cringe at it but no one else would think to place those big booming tom tom fills where he does. Saying that, it helped that Macca was such an amazing bassist that he helped elevate much of Mr. Starky's playing.  If you want to talk about underrated drummers, Mick Avory of The Kinks was a brilliant drummer, very unique and inventive in his style.

[Rocker]

My two cents:

Dennis was one hell of a Rock'n'Roll-drummer. Perfect feeling and rhythm for that kind of music and the rhythm is the foundation for everything.
Certainly miles away from technical perfection, but no one argues that D.J. Fontana was great for Elvis' 50s stuff while he never ever comes close to Ronnie Tutt (one of the very best drummers I ever heard) to this day. Just listen to "Read teddy". Tutt also rocked, but in a different way, using more than just the basics.


And I'd like to say "hooray !" for two other great and legendary drummers: Hal Blaine and Buddy Harman

[kookadams]

I'd put Dennis in the same league as Ringo Starr - perfect drummer for the band they were in.

exactly. he was just as good as ringo. Im a drummer myself and I think dennis was very underrated, he was great.