gfxgfx
 
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
logo
 
gfx gfx
gfx
650717 Posts in 26004 Topics by 3711 Members - Latest Member: JPP4 September 21, 2019, 04:53:09 PM
*
gfx*HomeHelpSearchCalendarLoginRegistergfx
gfxgfx
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.       « previous next »
Pages: [1] 2 Go Down Print
Author Topic: Salesman 1967: Craig Smith, Mike Nesmith, and Mike Love...and Brian?  (Read 9491 times)
guitarfool2002
Global Moderator
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 8708


"Barba non facit aliam historici"


View Profile WWW
« on: February 21, 2011, 09:07:19 AM »

I was going through some albums and found the compilation Apache Inca by Craig Vincent Smith (Satya Sai Maitreya Kali), and had a listen to his song Salesman on that set. Salesman of course was recorded by the Monkees and Mike Nesmith on the Pisces Aquarius album in late 1967, but the version on Apache has Mike Love in the studio talking with who I assume to be Craig Smith into an open mic as the track plays in the background.

If this has been covered before, I apologize for repeating it, and just to bring anyone who hasn't heard this up to speed, a little background:

Craig Smith was a Los Angeles musician and one of those guys who seemed to have all the right connections. He was in a group called "Chris and Craig", and had a project called the "Penny Arkade". With his various groups, he got the ear of Mike Nesmith from the Monkees who was looking for groups to produce outside the Monkees. Obviously he had the clout and the backing to afford these side projects, especially at the height of The Monkees in 67. So he invited Craig and the band to live at his house and rehearse and write the music which he would produce. Mike recorded "Salesman" and had it on the Monkees TV show which put a nice chunk of change into Smith's pocket.

Smith also had connections with Nick Venet and Steve Douglas who had power at Capitol, as well as access to the studio scenes...and I think it was Venet, Douglas, or both who eventually pitched Craig's songs to Andy Williams and Glen Campbell, who recorded them. The money he made from those songs enabled him to travel and explore his spirituality, which led to the name change and the rest of the story which can be found online. It's most likely Nick Venet and/or Steve Douglas had the connection to the Beach Boys and got Smith into a working relationship with them.

What I want to know about is that tape of Salesman. Again, it's Mike Love and who I think is Smith discussing the track as it plays over the monitors in the studio, somewhat hard to hear. It's a heavier and dirtier sounding version than the one Nesmith later sang, which had a definite Sir Douglas "She's About A Mover" groove holding it together. At one point the conversation starts on adding parts:

Mike Love says this after backing vocal parts are mentioned: "You and I and Brian can do it...when he gets back from Big Bear in, like, two days, and tonight or tomorrow we'll put on the flute with Charles Lloyd..."

Does he mean Brian Wilson? Was Smith or any of the bands he had around that time a part of Brother Records' stable of artists along the lines of Redwood, which Brian had brought in?

The timeline confuses me - Salesman was released by The Monkees in late 1967, and Smith and other band members say Nesmith put them up in his house in 1967 as well, if I remember. So can anyone date this Salesman tape with Mike Love? Was it in fact a Brother records project with suggestions from Nick Venet? Did anything further happen with the overdubs being discussed for the song on that tape?

I hope I'm not repeating what has been covered before, but a tape like this fascinates me especially coming from the time I think it dates from in 1967, and featuring some of my favorite musicians. I want to know more! Smiley
Logged

"All of us have the privilege of making music that helps and heals - to make music that makes people happier, stronger, and kinder. Don't forget: Music is God's voice." - Brian Wilson
Andrew G. Doe
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 17767


The triumph of The Hickey Script !


View Profile WWW
« Reply #1 on: February 21, 2011, 09:22:59 AM »

Well, the album it was on was released in 1971 (Apache - Apache/Inca, is a 2fer reissue of those two albums in 2000) which would tie in with Mike's reference to Charles Lloyd, who played on Surf's Up. Lloyd certainly wasn't involved with The Beach Boys in 1967, so I feel the dating of the tape to that era is very questionable.

Also, the version of "Salesman" on Apache is in reality the Penny Arkade version, produced by Nesmith in 1967 or thereabouts, so the possible connection with Brother falls apart pretty much right there.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2011, 09:38:26 AM by Andrew G. Doe » Logged

The four sweetest words in my vocabulary: "This poster is ignored".
guitarfool2002
Global Moderator
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 8708


"Barba non facit aliam historici"


View Profile WWW
« Reply #2 on: February 21, 2011, 09:38:28 AM »

Well, the album it was on was released in 1971, which would tie in with Mike's reference to Charles Lloyd, who played on Surf's Up. Lloyd certainly wasn't involved with The Beach Boys in 1967, so I feel the dating of the tape to that era is very questionable.

Interesting! It was released in '71 but the album was apparently music Smith recorded between 1967 and 1971, so unfortunately for Salesman there was no firm date for the track - it could be anything. One thing to consider is how Craig Smith was somewhat "normal" by LA music standards when he was working with Nesmith and the rest, and after he funded his spiritual trips with his songwriting money, he came back and was so different he was unrecognizable to some people who knew him as Craig instead of his new name. Would he have re-recorded an old song about a drug dealer with Mike Love in 1971 after all of his personal changes?

The Charles Lloyd reference does suggest a definite time, yet it feels like a demo from before the Monkees recorded the song. A tough one without more documentation.
Logged

"All of us have the privilege of making music that helps and heals - to make music that makes people happier, stronger, and kinder. Don't forget: Music is God's voice." - Brian Wilson
guitarfool2002
Global Moderator
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 8708


"Barba non facit aliam historici"


View Profile WWW
« Reply #3 on: February 21, 2011, 09:54:32 AM »

Just adding a bit more fuel to this, I can't find a single source for a date on this recording and it seems the Charles Lloyd reference may be the clincher for an approximate date. The album was originally sold by Smith himself in 1971-72 on the streets after he had returned from Peru, so they say on other places, yet no information beyond the fact that they are recordings from 1967 up to the time he was selling the record in 1971 seems to exist. There are tracks from when Nesmith was producing the Penny Arkade in 1967 on the same album as Salesman, to further confuse this.

The Nick Venet connection bothers me a bit, time-wise. Pure speculation, but after the 60's and their contracts with Capitol had expired, just how involved was Nick Venet with the Beach Boys? Yet the suggestion was made that Venet was the connection between Smith and the band which led to the recording of Salesman.
Logged

"All of us have the privilege of making music that helps and heals - to make music that makes people happier, stronger, and kinder. Don't forget: Music is God's voice." - Brian Wilson
Andrew G. Doe
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 17767


The triumph of The Hickey Script !


View Profile WWW
« Reply #4 on: February 21, 2011, 09:56:10 AM »

Well, the album it was on was released in 1971, which would tie in with Mike's reference to Charles Lloyd, who played on Surf's Up. Lloyd certainly wasn't involved with The Beach Boys in 1967, so I feel the dating of the tape to that era is very questionable.

Interesting! It was released in '71 but the album was apparently music Smith recorded between 1967 and 1971, so unfortunately for Salesman there was no firm date for the track - it could be anything. One thing to consider is how Craig Smith was somewhat "normal" by LA music standards when he was working with Nesmith and the rest, and after he funded his spiritual trips with his songwriting money, he came back and was so different he was unrecognizable to some people who knew him as Craig instead of his new name. Would he have re-recorded an old song about a drug dealer with Mike Love in 1971 after all of his personal changes?

The Charles Lloyd reference does suggest a definite time, yet it feels like a demo from before the Monkees recorded the song. A tough one without more documentation.

Hello ?  I did date the track - it's the Penny Arkade recording from 1967, just as "Country Girl" on Inca is.  Smith recycled a lot of the Arkade's unreleased material on those two albums.
Logged

The four sweetest words in my vocabulary: "This poster is ignored".
Andrew G. Doe
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 17767


The triumph of The Hickey Script !


View Profile WWW
« Reply #5 on: February 21, 2011, 10:00:05 AM »

Just adding a bit more fuel to this, I can't find a single source for a date on this recording and it seems the Charles Lloyd reference may be the clincher for an approximate date. The album was originally sold by Smith himself in 1971-72 on the streets after he had returned from Peru, so they say on other places, yet no information beyond the fact that they are recordings from 1967 up to the time he was selling the record in 1971 seems to exist. There are tracks from when Nesmith was producing the Penny Arkade in 1967 on the same album as Salesman, to further confuse this.

The Nick Venet connection bothers me a bit, time-wise. Pure speculation, but after the 60's and their contracts with Capitol had expired, just how involved was Nick Venet with the Beach Boys? Yet the suggestion was made that Venet was the connection between Smith and the band which led to the recording of Salesman.

By November 1969 Venet had left Capitol for MediArts, where he was head of A&R.
Logged

The four sweetest words in my vocabulary: "This poster is ignored".
guitarfool2002
Global Moderator
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 8708


"Barba non facit aliam historici"


View Profile WWW
« Reply #6 on: February 21, 2011, 10:04:08 AM »

Well, the album it was on was released in 1971, which would tie in with Mike's reference to Charles Lloyd, who played on Surf's Up. Lloyd certainly wasn't involved with The Beach Boys in 1967, so I feel the dating of the tape to that era is very questionable.

Interesting! It was released in '71 but the album was apparently music Smith recorded between 1967 and 1971, so unfortunately for Salesman there was no firm date for the track - it could be anything. One thing to consider is how Craig Smith was somewhat "normal" by LA music standards when he was working with Nesmith and the rest, and after he funded his spiritual trips with his songwriting money, he came back and was so different he was unrecognizable to some people who knew him as Craig instead of his new name. Would he have re-recorded an old song about a drug dealer with Mike Love in 1971 after all of his personal changes?

The Charles Lloyd reference does suggest a definite time, yet it feels like a demo from before the Monkees recorded the song. A tough one without more documentation.

Hello ?  I did date the track - it's the Penny Arkade recording from 1967, just as "Country Girl" on Inca is.  Smith recycled a lot of the Arkade's unreleased material on those two albums.

Right, right, I get that but then is the tape in question Mike Love talking over the old Arkade track from '67 dating from 1971 or thereabouts based on the Lloyd reference? I'm curious how and where Mike and possibly Brian got involved with Smith, and if it was 1971, by several reports Smith was pretty far out there even by LA standards. I'm trying to make sense of the thing and it's tough!
Logged

"All of us have the privilege of making music that helps and heals - to make music that makes people happier, stronger, and kinder. Don't forget: Music is God's voice." - Brian Wilson
Andrew G. Doe
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 17767


The triumph of The Hickey Script !


View Profile WWW
« Reply #7 on: February 21, 2011, 10:07:55 AM »

Well, the album it was on was released in 1971, which would tie in with Mike's reference to Charles Lloyd, who played on Surf's Up. Lloyd certainly wasn't involved with The Beach Boys in 1967, so I feel the dating of the tape to that era is very questionable.

Interesting! It was released in '71 but the album was apparently music Smith recorded between 1967 and 1971, so unfortunately for Salesman there was no firm date for the track - it could be anything. One thing to consider is how Craig Smith was somewhat "normal" by LA music standards when he was working with Nesmith and the rest, and after he funded his spiritual trips with his songwriting money, he came back and was so different he was unrecognizable to some people who knew him as Craig instead of his new name. Would he have re-recorded an old song about a drug dealer with Mike Love in 1971 after all of his personal changes?

The Charles Lloyd reference does suggest a definite time, yet it feels like a demo from before the Monkees recorded the song. A tough one without more documentation.

Hello ?  I did date the track - it's the Penny Arkade recording from 1967, just as "Country Girl" on Inca is.  Smith recycled a lot of the Arkade's unreleased material on those two albums.

Right, right, I get that but then is the tape in question Mike Love talking over the old Arkade track from '67 dating from 1971 or thereabouts based on the Lloyd reference? I'm curious how and where Mike and possibly Brian got involved with Smith, and if it was 1971, by several reports Smith was pretty far out there even by LA standards. I'm trying to make sense of the thing and it's tough!

No idea, and I doubt Brian was ever in the same room... but yes, they're talking over a 1967 tape in 1971.
Logged

The four sweetest words in my vocabulary: "This poster is ignored".
guitarfool2002
Global Moderator
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 8708


"Barba non facit aliam historici"


View Profile WWW
« Reply #8 on: February 21, 2011, 10:14:50 AM »

Well, the album it was on was released in 1971, which would tie in with Mike's reference to Charles Lloyd, who played on Surf's Up. Lloyd certainly wasn't involved with The Beach Boys in 1967, so I feel the dating of the tape to that era is very questionable.

Interesting! It was released in '71 but the album was apparently music Smith recorded between 1967 and 1971, so unfortunately for Salesman there was no firm date for the track - it could be anything. One thing to consider is how Craig Smith was somewhat "normal" by LA music standards when he was working with Nesmith and the rest, and after he funded his spiritual trips with his songwriting money, he came back and was so different he was unrecognizable to some people who knew him as Craig instead of his new name. Would he have re-recorded an old song about a drug dealer with Mike Love in 1971 after all of his personal changes?

The Charles Lloyd reference does suggest a definite time, yet it feels like a demo from before the Monkees recorded the song. A tough one without more documentation.

Hello ?  I did date the track - it's the Penny Arkade recording from 1967, just as "Country Girl" on Inca is.  Smith recycled a lot of the Arkade's unreleased material on those two albums.

Right, right, I get that but then is the tape in question Mike Love talking over the old Arkade track from '67 dating from 1971 or thereabouts based on the Lloyd reference? I'm curious how and where Mike and possibly Brian got involved with Smith, and if it was 1971, by several reports Smith was pretty far out there even by LA standards. I'm trying to make sense of the thing and it's tough!

No idea, and I doubt Brian was ever in the same room... but yes, they're talking over a 1967 tape in 1971.

Now if only we could narrow it down to when Brian was away at Big Bear Lake, we'd have the date!

I'm kidding, really... Cheesy
Logged

"All of us have the privilege of making music that helps and heals - to make music that makes people happier, stronger, and kinder. Don't forget: Music is God's voice." - Brian Wilson
Steve Mayo
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 1146



View Profile
« Reply #9 on: February 21, 2011, 05:21:38 PM »

speaking of the monkees, uk fans can look forward to this..

 http://www.cinemablend.com/celebrity/Monkees-Reunite-British-Tour-30202.html#

but no papa nez.
Logged
Mr. Mike
Smiley Smile Newbie

Offline Offline

Posts: 8


View Profile
« Reply #10 on: April 07, 2012, 12:17:03 PM »

Hi folks,

I know this is an old thread, but hopefully I can fill in some blanks...

Around 1963-64, Craig Smith was part of a folk-music group called The Good Time Singers, which put out some LPs and singles on Capitol and appeared regularly on The Andy Williams Show.   He left that group and in 1965 auditioned for a role as part of a folk-singing trio  on a TV show called 'The Happeners'.  A pilot episode was filmed, but the show didn't get picked up.  However, Craig and one of the other singers, Chris Ducey, hit it off and decided to continue making music.  They cut one single on Capitol in 1966 as Chris & Craig - it was produced by Steve Douglas, backed by the W-Crew (with Glen Campbell on guitar). 

They made the rounds on the LA scene and struck up a friendship with Mike Nesmith while making appearances at the hootenannies at The Troubadour, which, by mid-'67 led to Nesmith's taking Chris & Craig under his wing, renaming them Penny Arkade and recording their songs to shop around for a deal.  By mid-'68, with no record deal in sight, Craig left the band and went on his journey, funded by royalties from recordings of his songs (Heather MacRae, The Robbs, Andy Williams, The Monkees, Glen Campbell).  Penny Arkade continued on without him until mid-'69. 
Craig (now known as Maitreya Kali) self-released the LPs 'Apache' and 'Inca'  in '71-'72, using some of the Penny Arkade recordings, solo  acoustic recordings, and a few recordings with an unknown backing band (he did have a band around this time, but its longevity and recording output is unknown).   Some of the solo numbers are his older compositions, and one is a Penny Arkade tune with rewritten lyrics - as Arkade bass player Don Glut said, "it's like he hadn't gotten too far off the beaten track to realize that some of the old stuff he did was really good".

As far as 'Salesman' in particular, I would venture to say that the version in question was recorded after the Penny Arkade days - all of the PA recordings known to exist were released on the excellent Sundazed release in 2004, and 'Salesman' isn't on there.   The recording on 'Pisces Aquarius' seems to predate the existence of Penny Arkade;  Nesmith said that he liked its similarity to 'She's About A Mover', while on 'Apache' it clearly has a different style. 

As an aside: the Penny Arkade release is really, really good.  And, if you see a double-album version of 'Apache/Inca' at a garage sale, snap it up - an original copy (it's said that Craig pressed 30 copies total) went for over $10k last December.
Logged
Pretty Funky
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 5365


View Profile
« Reply #11 on: April 07, 2012, 12:25:15 PM »

speaking of the monkees, uk fans can look forward to this..

 http://www.cinemablend.com/celebrity/Monkees-Reunite-British-Tour-30202.html#

but no papa nez.

That story is over a year old. Try googling Davy Jones for an update!
Logged
rogerlancelot
Guest
« Reply #12 on: April 07, 2012, 01:55:40 PM »

speaking of the monkees, uk fans can look forward to this..

 http://www.cinemablend.com/celebrity/Monkees-Reunite-British-Tour-30202.html#

but no papa nez.

That story is over a year old. Try googling Davy Jones for an update!

It's an old thread. And don't be picking on Davy!
Logged
guitarfool2002
Global Moderator
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 8708


"Barba non facit aliam historici"


View Profile WWW
« Reply #13 on: April 07, 2012, 03:48:01 PM »

I do have the Sundazed release, and it's interesting. The story/saga of Craig Smith is almost as interesting as the records he made! The actual songs are not quite as musically great as I had expected but definitely worth having.

His story reminded me a bit of Eden Ahbez who came up this week as well - another guy who took the royalties he made from having his song recorded by a major pop artist and basically dropped out of society.

Just a point to add - Nesmith must have believed in Craig Smith and the Arkade quite a bit because not only did he mentor them and offer to work on their music, he also put them up at his house and let them practice and stay there for a time...from what I've heard, that is. Imagine a guy with Nesmith's stature as a pop star in 1967 opening his house for you. Pretty cool.
Logged

"All of us have the privilege of making music that helps and heals - to make music that makes people happier, stronger, and kinder. Don't forget: Music is God's voice." - Brian Wilson
Mr. Mike
Smiley Smile Newbie

Offline Offline

Posts: 8


View Profile
« Reply #14 on: April 08, 2012, 10:34:40 AM »

I wonder if Mike Love is even aware that the 'Salesman' recording/demo/conversation was actually released.   I'd love to know what if/what he remembers.   So many questions!



Logged
Mr. Mike
Smiley Smile Newbie

Offline Offline

Posts: 8


View Profile
« Reply #15 on: May 05, 2012, 09:37:43 AM »

Just wanted to add...Craig Smith was well-acquainted with both Mike and Brian, so the familiar tone during the 'Salesman' recording makes sense. 
Logged
SG7
Guest
« Reply #16 on: May 05, 2012, 10:11:18 AM »

Is Craig Smith still around? This is interesting history.
Logged
Jason Penick
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 579



View Profile
« Reply #17 on: May 05, 2012, 12:23:39 PM »

I'm laughing right now at the thought of Mike Love hanging out with a guy who had a spider tattooed on his forehead.  LOL

The mention of Charles Lloyd dates the overdub session to 1971, but Mr. Mike is right in saying that there is no Penny Arkade version of "Salesman", or it would have been on the Sundazed comp.  I'd love to be able to hear the track sans overdubs someday, but most likely it is lost to history.

Apache and Inca are both amazing, by the way.  Some of Smith's later acoustic stuff is on par with Forever Changes.
Logged

SUICIDE
It only makes things worse. You can't solve anything by killing yourself. I mean, things can only get better, but if you're dead, they may not. -- Brian Wilson
Mr. Mike
Smiley Smile Newbie

Offline Offline

Posts: 8


View Profile
« Reply #18 on: May 29, 2012, 08:12:33 AM »

Is Craig Smith still around? This is interesting history.

Craig is still around, but not doing 'well'.  He's homeless, living on the streets of LA, the last I heard...
Logged
Mr. Mike
Smiley Smile Newbie

Offline Offline

Posts: 8


View Profile
« Reply #19 on: June 28, 2012, 09:22:48 PM »

So,  just the other day, a message was posted on Craig Smith-related page of a blog I frequently read.   Here's what it says:

I too met him in 1972, I think in Santa Monica. He gave me a ride back to my dorm at UCLA and after that would randomly show up at odd hours. My roommate was not too thrilled by his scary appearance even then. I knew he was the “real thing” as he took me to his record company to pick up something and then we dropped by to visit Brian Wilson at his house. Mrs. Wilson came home with the kids while we were there and I could tell she was not happy to see Matreya in her living room (not to mention me). Brian was friendly enough. Matreya gave me one of his albums which I loved but somehow misplaced. He talked about the Manson crowd too and at some point I had to insist he not show up anymore as he was scaring the lovely co-eds on my floor! I have read about him on-line and have also wondered if he is still out there on the streets somewhere. So sad.
Logged
Mr. Mike
Smiley Smile Newbie

Offline Offline

Posts: 8


View Profile
« Reply #20 on: October 17, 2012, 09:20:58 PM »

Sad news to report...it's been discovered that Craig Smith died this past March, at age 66.
Logged
Les Garçons de la plage
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 30


View Profile
« Reply #21 on: February 16, 2019, 05:08:02 PM »

I know this is an old topic, but I have not posted here for a while or have been familiar with Craig Smith's music back in 2012...

Having read about Craig Smith's recording sessions (from Mike Stax's excellent book  and other articles and interviews) it would not be impossible for this track to have been recorded in 1970. To my memory, the tracks Revelation and Love Is Our Existence were recorded back then, and Salesman sounds quite similar in terms of instrumentation (acoustic guitar, bass and a tiny bit amateurish drums), though unlike the two aforementioned tracks Salesman has no vocals fed through a Leslie speaker. After the release of the book, more recordings, writings etc. from Craig Smith have been recovered; some collected on the album Love Is Our Existence but apparently there will be more to come - so I hope you folks do not mind me sharing pure speculation before some actual info comes up.
Logged
“Big Daddy”
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 329



View Profile
« Reply #22 on: February 16, 2019, 06:30:43 PM »

Mike Stax’s book is fascinating and highly recommended. Some interesting Beach Boys connections for those curious.
Logged

For those who believe that Brian walks on water, I will always be the Antichrist.
Custom Machine
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1258



View Profile
« Reply #23 on: February 16, 2019, 11:50:33 PM »

I'd never heard of Craig Smith until GF's post seven years ago. Here's an interesting article, from Sept. 2016, reviewing Mike Stax's book. When Craig Smith left for a trip on the Hippie Trail in 1968 Mike Love threw a going away party at his house. Unfortunately, Mike declined to be interviewed for the book. https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/7bmxzx/swimming-through-the-darkness-the-hunt-for-craig-smith-psychedelic-messiah
Logged
Fall Breaks
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1238


How it really got to my soul


View Profile
« Reply #24 on: February 17, 2019, 07:56:48 AM »

I'd never heard of Craig Smith until GF's post seven years ago. Here's an interesting article, from Sept. 2016, reviewing Mike Stax's book. When Craig Smith left for a trip on the Hippie Trail in 1968 Mike Love threw a going away party at his house. Unfortunately, Mike declined to be interviewed for the book. https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/7bmxzx/swimming-through-the-darkness-the-hunt-for-craig-smith-psychedelic-messiah
I also sought out the book and the music after reading this thread. Truly fascinating story (and the Penny Arkade version of Country Girl is a 10/10).
Logged

"I think people should write better melodies and sing a little sweeter, and knock off that stupid rap crap, y’know? Rap is really ridiculous" -- Brian Wilson, 2010
gfx
Pages: [1] 2 Go Up Print 
gfx
Jump to:  
gfx
Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines Page created in 0.229 seconds with 21 queries.
Helios Multi design by Bloc
gfx
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!