gfxgfx
 
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
logo
 
gfx gfx
gfx
680601 Posts in 27601 Topics by 4068 Members - Latest Member: Dae Lims March 29, 2024, 12:01:02 PM
*
gfx*HomeHelpSearchCalendarLoginRegistergfx
gfxgfx
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.       « previous next »
Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 Go Down Print
Author Topic: Songs that would have been on SMiLE in '67...  (Read 13689 times)
Cam Mott
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 4171


View Profile
« Reply #25 on: January 16, 2011, 10:37:38 AM »

I guess the photos in the booklet were enough for him for whatever reason. That's a good point, he/they weren't too fastidious about getting everyone's face on every album. If it wasn't that, I'll guess Brian wanted the Boys to be the public face on the album since they were the public face of the group?
Logged

"Bring me the head of Carmen Sandiego" Lynne "The Chief" Thigpen
guitarfool2002
Global Moderator
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 9996


"Barba non facit aliam historici"


View Profile WWW
« Reply #26 on: January 16, 2011, 01:12:52 PM »

The reasoning behind the Smile album photos was revealed by Michael Vosse in, you guessed it, the Fusion article!  Smiley

Brian made the call on them. It was his humor trip - not the humor I understand in 2011 and completely sober - but that was Brian's humor.

First, he knew the Boston Harbor shot, of the Beach Boys looking silly and out of place in a boat on a cold day, looked ridiculous for an album. That is why he wanted the shot used.

Next, the booklet shot of Brian in his kitchen. That was Brian's wallpaper that seemed to pulsate if you looked at it a certain way, very in tune with what he and his circle of friends were doing in 65-66, so they did the split-screen image of it for a psychedelic effect.

Then, the cover art of the Smile Shop by Frank Holmes. Again, the suggestion is that Brian knew it was juvenile in a charming way, he knew it was childlike and had a touch of humor to it, so he went with it.

Finally, the striped shirts - I don't know if it was Vosse in Fusion but someone in the inner circle, if I remember, said that was deliberate too, to disarm or even trick the person looking at the cover into thinking it was another Beach Boys album and here were the guys with their matching striped shirts. As soon as you'd take the album out of the sleeve and listen all those notions of the kind of music a band wearing matching striped shirts would make would be shattered.

According to Vosse, all of these were Brian's choices and decisions, including the band photos like the one of Mike drinking milk in the booklet. They were all in tune with Brian's concept of humor at the time, but again I think in 2011 the nature of that humor is lost to history. It could be called absurdist humor, shots like the boat and the milk, or simple childlike humor like the Smile Shop front cover art. All of the shots were chosen for a reason, and it was not Capitol doing a random cut-and-paste from the graphics department.

A very important thing to take from Vosse's article is the notion that Brian thought humor was the gateway to enlightenment, and when someone laughed it opened them up for the more heavy ideas. That theory explains the absurdity of the Smile cover photos quite well.



Logged

"All of us have the privilege of making music that helps and heals - to make music that makes people happier, stronger, and kinder. Don't forget: Music is God's voice." - Brian Wilson
Andrew G. Doe
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 17767


The triumph of The Hickey Script !


View Profile WWW
« Reply #27 on: January 16, 2011, 01:31:53 PM »

Finally, the striped shirts - I don't know if it was Vosse in Fusion but someone in the inner circle, if I remember, said that was deliberate too, to disarm or even trick the person looking at the cover into thinking it was another Beach Boys album and here were the guys with their matching striped shirts. As soon as you'd take the album out of the sleeve and listen all those notions of the kind of music a band wearing matching striped shirts would make would be shattered.

One small question - what striped shirts ?
Logged

The four sweetest words in my vocabulary: "This poster is ignored".
guitarfool2002
Global Moderator
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 9996


"Barba non facit aliam historici"


View Profile WWW
« Reply #28 on: January 16, 2011, 02:11:43 PM »

Finally, the striped shirts - I don't know if it was Vosse in Fusion but someone in the inner circle, if I remember, said that was deliberate too, to disarm or even trick the person looking at the cover into thinking it was another Beach Boys album and here were the guys with their matching striped shirts. As soon as you'd take the album out of the sleeve and listen all those notions of the kind of music a band wearing matching striped shirts would make would be shattered.

One small question - what striped shirts ?

Checkerboard pattern, matching button-down shirts instead of striped. My bad.

Does the rest of the post seem accurate? Cheesy
Logged

"All of us have the privilege of making music that helps and heals - to make music that makes people happier, stronger, and kinder. Don't forget: Music is God's voice." - Brian Wilson
Andrew G. Doe
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 17767


The triumph of The Hickey Script !


View Profile WWW
« Reply #29 on: January 16, 2011, 02:32:51 PM »

Finally, the striped shirts - I don't know if it was Vosse in Fusion but someone in the inner circle, if I remember, said that was deliberate too, to disarm or even trick the person looking at the cover into thinking it was another Beach Boys album and here were the guys with their matching striped shirts. As soon as you'd take the album out of the sleeve and listen all those notions of the kind of music a band wearing matching striped shirts would make would be shattered.

One small question - what striped shirts ?

Checkerboard pattern, matching button-down shirts instead of striped. My bad.

Does the rest of the post seem accurate? Cheesy

I'd question the "another BB album/guys in matching shirts" as the band shot was on the back. The front would have been like no other BB album to date... actually, like precious few albums to date period.
Logged

The four sweetest words in my vocabulary: "This poster is ignored".
guitarfool2002
Global Moderator
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 9996


"Barba non facit aliam historici"


View Profile WWW
« Reply #30 on: January 16, 2011, 02:49:22 PM »

Finally, the striped shirts - I don't know if it was Vosse in Fusion but someone in the inner circle, if I remember, said that was deliberate too, to disarm or even trick the person looking at the cover into thinking it was another Beach Boys album and here were the guys with their matching striped shirts. As soon as you'd take the album out of the sleeve and listen all those notions of the kind of music a band wearing matching striped shirts would make would be shattered.

One small question - what striped shirts ?

Checkerboard pattern, matching button-down shirts instead of striped. My bad.

Does the rest of the post seem accurate? Cheesy

I'd question the "another BB album/guys in matching shirts" as the band shot was on the back. The front would have been like no other BB album to date... actually, like precious few albums to date period.

I wish I could remember who that was and where I saw it or heard it, but I remember the comment that the back cover shot of the Beach Boys was deliberate in showing them with the matching shirts to contrast that image with the music actually on the album. But I could be remembering a theory rather than a fact!

Interesting to note - all of the photos of the band from Boston in November 1966, as seen in the Smile booklet, show them wearing the checkerboard shirts. BUT - a photo from radio station WRKO that has the 'RKO DJ's posing with the band and their instruments in Boston shows them with the striped shirts. I'm guessing it's the 1966 Boston show because Mike is standing in front of the Theremin/Ribbon Controller, unless they played a Boston show in '67 where the photo was taken.
Logged

"All of us have the privilege of making music that helps and heals - to make music that makes people happier, stronger, and kinder. Don't forget: Music is God's voice." - Brian Wilson
Mahalo
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1156

..Stand back, Speak normally


View Profile
« Reply #31 on: January 16, 2011, 02:51:56 PM »

Of the songs, we know what several of them would have sounded like by listening to the tracks on box set and (in most cases) comparing them to their respective versions on BWPS.  These include "Wonderful", "DYLW", "Good Vibrations", "Cabin Essence", and (for the most part) "Vega-Tables".  We also have a good idea for both "Heroes And Villains" and "Surf's Up" but I'll get back to them in a bit.  As for the remaining songs (excluding "The Elements"), only one is missing the lead vocal (and possibly 60's era lyrics) and the other two are medleys.

As stated above, Brian prepared a completed backing track for "CIFOTM" and after hearing it coupled with "Wonderful" on BWPS, I finally had the answer to the reasoning behind the latter's abrupt ending (as I'm sure many of you did).  I'd bet my life the two of them were always meant to go together and I wouldn't doubt if Brian had at least some idea of the lyrics, even back in the 60's.  The recorded (backing) vocals aren't just nonsense words like "Oohm, bop didit" or "Wah wah who ha".  They're actual lyrics, repeating the "proposed" title and as eccentric as Brian (and the entire project) was, I doubt he or Van Dyke wrote lyrics for the backing vocals before having at least an idea of what the lead vocal would include.

Onto the other two, I'm thoroughly convinced they're both "shorthand".  Just as it is on BWPS, "I'm In Great Shape" is the self-titled piece, "I Wanna Be Around", and "Workshop".  Regardless of the tracklisting on BWPS, do we really think "Workshop" should be considered its own song?  Clearly, as with "IIGS" it's just a piece of a larger song.  And the same goes for Brian's arrangement of "The Old Master Painter".  It appears on BWPS (nearly) as the medley he always envisioned it to be: "Barnyard"/"TOMP"/"YAMS".  All those references to "the Barnyard medley"?  Hello!  "TOMP" IS "the barnyard medley."  The only thing missing is "Barnshine" following "YAMS" (as many people have said it did) but whether that changed before or after Darian's involvement, I wouldn't stake my life (tho my guess would be after; probably after Darian got used to it not being there, thanks to the box set, etc.)

So that leaves just the "singles"/"masterpieces" and "The Elements".  Everyone KNOWS Capital wanted the single version of "Good Vibrations" so I'm not even going to discuss it, other than to say I'll bet it was going to kick off side two, as opposed to ending it and I believe ending it was Darrin's idea, having realized how well it would fit with a reprise of "Our Prayer", which would have been the first "hidden" track (at the start of the album), beating the Beatles' "Her Majesty" to the punch by almost three years.  

And speaking of reprises, I'm convinced (sorry to keep using that word but I can't say it's a unequivocal fact, nor that it's just my "opinion") Brian always intended to include the "child section" at the end of "Surf's Up" to serve as a reprise to "CIFOTM".  (I also believe "CIFOTM" would have closed out side one and "Surf's Up" (with the reprise) would have done the same for side two (and the album itself).  Would the second movement of "Surf's Up" included fuller instrumentation (or even the same) as the first?  My guess is probably at one point.  Brian may have even intended to "fly it in" for the second go round; possibly with a couple of edits but I think after the Inside Pop performance was called "one aspect of new things happening in pop music today" and "a symbol of the change many of these young musicians see in our future", he may have hedged his bets and decided to replicate the sound of that performance for the second movement, as not to draw (possibly) negative comparisons to the version Oppenheim expressed such admiration for.

As for "Heroes And Villains, I'll keep it short but it's my belief that "Heroes And Villains" is the cantina version, while "Heroes And Villains Part 2" is essentially the single version.  They weren't specifically two separate songs (which is why many people have stated that was a just a case of misinformation).  Instead, I think they were recorded separately (hence the "HAVPT" session listings) with a clear delineation between them.  That way, if/when "HAV" was split between the two sides of a single, the split would sound intentional, unlike what we've all since heard on stuff like "American Pie", "Standing On The Top", etc.  To recap: Cantina version up to the tape explosion, tape explosion fades out, (flip, if listening to the 45), first chorus of the released single version to the end (possibly with the addition of Mike's "the heroes, the heroes..." part).

Finally "The Elements": "Fire" we know, so I'm not going into it but just as everyone "knew" "ILTSDD" was "Water" as soon as they heard it, I actually felt the same way about the earth section, the first time I heard "Fall Breaks..." Then there's all the "revelations" surrounding "All Day": "Oh my God. It's 'Air!" "But I thought '...Da Da' was 'Water'...."  Yep.  Just like "Bicycle Rider" is both "HAV " AND "DYLW" and "Child" is both "CIFTTM" AND "Surf's Up"!  Two themes four elements, one song, clocking in at a time not too crazy for even the most avant garde yet still VERY mainstream pop artist of the mid-60's.  Again, I could get more into it but I think that's more than enough to give you some idea of my thoughts.  Thanks for asking Wink

But then again, "Why should I speak? For I know nothing."

I agree totally Phoenix about the elements notion of two themes, four songs... I thought that was a great post.

Do you think that the Intro to H&V, as is listed on the boxset would've kicked off the single?

What is your final notion for the tracklisting? I have my own ideas that I put too much thought into, but definitely GV would've started side 2. I also think that there would have been very different single versions of the songs as compared to the album versions...i.e. SOT Wonderful and CIFOTM versions...anyways, great post Phoenix...the thread has taken a major tangent...
« Last Edit: January 16, 2011, 02:54:49 PM by noname » Logged
Ian
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1833


View Profile
« Reply #32 on: January 16, 2011, 03:13:04 PM »

In actuality-the Keith Badman book states that they shot that photo in Boston on the Nov 1966 tour but unfortunately research by me has shown that the date was one of Keith's many errors.  BBs were actually in Hartford, CT on Nov 17 1966 and skipped Boston on that tour.  Though-they could have stopped in Boston to have a photo session.
Logged
Cam Mott
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 4171


View Profile
« Reply #33 on: January 16, 2011, 03:28:19 PM »

Several years ago Guy Webster told me some were shot at Boston Harbor so I guess they did the shoot after visiting WRKO.
Logged

"Bring me the head of Carmen Sandiego" Lynne "The Chief" Thigpen
guitarfool2002
Global Moderator
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 9996


"Barba non facit aliam historici"


View Profile WWW
« Reply #34 on: January 16, 2011, 03:30:34 PM »

In actuality-the Keith Badman book states that they shot that photo in Boston on the Nov 1966 tour but unfortunately research by me has shown that the date was one of Keith's many errors.  BBs were actually in Hartford, CT on Nov 17 1966 and skipped Boston on that tour.  Though-they could have stopped in Boston to have a photo session.

Ian, thanks for that info, this is very interesting! If you could, please take a look at this photo, and I'm putting the link because the photo is literally huge and wouldn't work for this post:

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_kvpe5gk5TL1qax8c7o1_500.jpg

This was included in literature and a record album compilation from Boston's top 40 station WRKO. Please take a look at it and tell me if you think like I do that it dates from 1966. The Smile photos, like the boat, I believe were definitely taken in Boston, and Vosse even says it was Boston in the Fusion piece if I recall. Maybe they just stopped by? Or perhaps a show was played that's benn lost to history (I doubt that, but still...)

Either way, notice that all of the photos of the band in the Smile book have them in checked shirts, and the stage shot with the Boston DJ's at the link shows them in the striped shirts.

I'm really curious to hear thoughts on this!
Logged

"All of us have the privilege of making music that helps and heals - to make music that makes people happier, stronger, and kinder. Don't forget: Music is God's voice." - Brian Wilson
Phoenix
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 1212



View Profile
« Reply #35 on: January 16, 2011, 07:34:36 PM »

I agree totally Phoenix about the elements notion of two themes, four songs... I thought that was a great post.

Thanks!


Do you think that the Intro to H&V, as is listed on the boxset would've kicked off the single?

No.  I think I remember hearing it was mislabeled on the box set and was always the intro to "Fire"/"The Elements".  Either way, that's what I think and I doubt BWPS having it in the same place is just a coincidence..


What is your final notion for the tracklisting?
 
My personal opinion, like I said, is pretty darn close to what Brian (and company) eventually gave us:

Our Prayer (unlisted), possibly with "Gee" although I prefer it without it
Heroes And Villains ("two part" version, listed as one track)
Do You Like Worms (with lyrics, pretty much as they appeared in 2004)
The Old Master Painter ("Barnyard medley", 2004 arrangement, finishing with "Barnshine")
Cabin Essence
Wonderful
Child Is Father Of The Man (with lyrics, at least similar to 2004 version)

Good Vibrations (probably NOT preceded by "You're Welcome", tho I put it there on my person version, as my one indulgence)
I'm In Great Shape (medley)
Vega-Tables (I never thought of transitioning the workshop sounds into those of the vegetables but I totally believe that was Brain's plan from at least some point in the 60's)
Wind Chimes (either here or after "GV", possibly merged in some way with "Holiday", which probably went the way of "Trombone Dixie" by the time the tracklist was sent to Capital)
The Elements (as I said, kicking of with the mislabeled "H&V Intro", possibly ending with the "Water Chant", so technically two themes, four songs, and intro, and an outro)
Surf's Up


I also think that there would have been very different single versions of the songs as compared to the album versions.

Because of the industry practice of the time, I'm not sure how many singles would have been lifted from the album, nor if they would have used different version.  (To be honest, that idea hadn't crossed my mind.)  More than anything, I just took the alternate versions as explored but ultimately discarded possibilities.


anyways, great post Phoenix...the thread has taken a major tangent...

Thanks again for the kind words and I do concur (about the tangent).

Logged
buddhahat
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 2643


Hi, my name's Doug. Would you like to dance?


View Profile
« Reply #36 on: January 17, 2011, 01:55:44 AM »

I know this has been done before, many many times, but I'd like to see what this group of people think about this.

So as we know, there was a tracklisting printed out on the record sleeve for SMiLE in 1967.

So we can assume the following tracks would be included:
  • "Do You Like Worms?"
  • "Wind Chimes"
  • "Heroes and Villains"
  • "Surf's Up"
  • "Cabin Essence"
  • "Wonderful"
  • "Vega-Tables"

However what does everybody think would have happened with the other tracks, such as:
  • "I'm In Great Shape": Would it have been more than just the fragment? Or would "I Wanna Be Around" be included? "Workshop"? I doubt it.
  • "Child Is Father of The Man": Would it still have lead into "Surf's Up". It sure makes sense, but do we have any proof this was thought of before '03?
  • "The Elements": Probably would have had "I Love To Say Da Da" and "Mrs. O'Leary's Cow" but what else. Lets not even bother starting this
  • "The Old Master Painter": Was this always paired with "You Are My Sunshine"? Would there have been more to it?
  • "Look": My guess is this was either discarded or possibly meant to be part of "Wonderful" as one track? Most likely discarded.
  • "Holidays": This was probably discarded too.
  • "He Gives Speeches": Discarded.
  • "Barnyard": Maybe included with "I'm In Great Shape", maybe with "Heroes And Villains"....possibly discarded.
Anyways, what does everybody else think? Do we have any reason to believe that "Look" or "Holidays" would have made the album?

Still to me, that back cover tracklisting gives me trouble. How do "The Old Master Painter" and "I'm In Great Shape" warrant their own tracks. Alright, lets see what you guys think.

I think the answers to many of these question come down largely to personal hunches so, fwiw, here are mine:

Old Master Painter would have stayed its own track, a la the handwritten track list, with the addition of some type of fade. Either a version of the barnshine fade, although we know that Brian had cannibalized that for Heroes, although he did re-record the Barnshine Fade for Heroes - the one with Carl's doo-be-doos over the top), or another fade. Incidentally, has anyone edited the Banshine re-record onto the end of OMP/YAMS as it fits much better than the original barnshine imo?!

Child is father of the man - I think this would've been it's own track, independent of SU. I think the foreboding intro leading into Surf's Up was an entriely 04 creation. Incidentally I've always found that foreboding bridge section so compelling. To me it sounds like an expectant father waiting for his child to be born, and then of course you have the baby crying sounds in the chorus and verse. A fascinating song. I like Phoenix's idea of it closing Side 1 as a nice mirror to SU closing side 2 - never thought of that!

Good Vibrations - I strongly believe that at one point this was planned to follow Our Prayer, most likely as the lead track. It sounds far better coming out of OP than H&V does imo.

Look - I'm with those that suspect this may have been discarded. Shame though.

Ditto Holidays & He Gives Speeches.

The Elements - I'm not entirely sold on Da da being water. On one of the sessions you clearly hear them moving into another section after section 2, that doesn't sound dissimilar to CIFOTM. Imo, dada could well have been it's own independent track, maybe with a relationship to, or thematically similar to, CIFOTM. After all, the title suggests fatherhood (Love to Say Dada), and CIFOTM obviously deals with the cycle of life. Again just another hunch. All Day confuses things further - was it part of Heroes? I can't remember which was recorded first - All Day, or Dada? I Have a feeling it was the latter. Perhaps the melody of Dada/All Day was at one point water but then Brian decided to work it up into an independent track, just like Vegatables. Maybe All Day, was a proposed B-Side for H&V at some point? Who knows - it's obviously so difficult to unravel this stuff and I think Brian was changing his mind and cannibalizing songs very regularly.

I love Fire leading into I Wanna Be Around/Workshop and so my Elements consists largely of that.
Logged

Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes ......
Ian
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1833


View Profile
« Reply #37 on: January 17, 2011, 06:13:10 AM »

Guitar Fool, I looked thru the Boston Globe and the Boston Herald-there was no BB show in Boston in Nov 1966.  I did however find in the Hartford Times that the BBs were in Hartford, CT at Bushnell on the night Badman had them listed in Boston and that is confirmed (Hartford Times-Nov 17 1966.  Also an interview from that day published in the Hartford Courant on Dec 3 1966). They were in Boston in May 66 (Boston College and MIT) but that Theremin is for Good Vibrations-so I think that photo you posted is from the April 1967 shows (Back Bay Theatre)-and yes they had that look still in Apr 67.  Didn't get rid of the striped shirts till Nov 67.  I think I am right-looking at the photo-there are only subtle changes from the way they looked in Nov 66-but Bruce's hair is slightly longer-as indeed it was in Apr 67.
Logged
Ian
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1833


View Profile
« Reply #38 on: January 17, 2011, 06:23:07 AM »

Guitar Fool-By the way checkered shirts and striped shirts (two kinds-big stripes and pin stripes)-they wore em all in 66-67.  For example-German Magazine Bravo (Cover date Nov 21 1966) has photos of them in Germany in both stripes and checked shirts.  Striped shirts were more common-but when the others were in the wash-I guess they had to make due!
Logged
bgas
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 6372


Oh for the good old days


View Profile
« Reply #39 on: January 17, 2011, 06:59:06 AM »

Guitar Fool, I looked thru the Boston Globe and the Boston Herald-there was no BB show in Boston in Nov 1966.  I did however find in the Hartford Times that the BBs were in Hartford, CT at Bushnell on the night Badman had them listed in Boston and that is confirmed (Hartford Times-Nov 17 1966.  Also an interview from that day published in the Hartford Courant on Dec 3 1966). They were in Boston in May 66 (Boston College and MIT) but that Theremin is for Good Vibrations-so I think that photo you posted is from the April 1967 shows (Back Bay Theatre)-and yes they had that look still in Apr 67.  Didn't get rid of the striped shirts till Nov 67.  I think I am right-looking at the photo-there are only subtle changes from the way they looked in Nov 66-but Bruce's hair is slightly longer-as indeed it was in Apr 67.

Ian scores again! 
from WRKO site: 
http://wrko.org/happenings/hap_beachboys.html
Logged

Nothing I post is my opinion, it's all a message from God
oldsurferdude
Guest
« Reply #40 on: January 17, 2011, 08:25:09 AM »

Saw 'em in all of their striped glory-Johnstown, Pa. 1967.
Logged
guitarfool2002
Global Moderator
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 9996


"Barba non facit aliam historici"


View Profile WWW
« Reply #41 on: January 17, 2011, 08:31:51 AM »

Awesome answers! Thank you so much for clearing up the dates and places, and bgas, thank you for posting the WRKO link. I was on that page, I check there regularly, I first saw the photo of the Boys on that site a few years ago, but never saw the link you posted with the photos. A big thank you.

Indulge me on an semi-off-topic break for a minute, please!  Smiley

I lived in Boston for a time. One place I lived for several years was a dorm room at 150 Massachusetts Avenue, in the Back Bay. The "Back Bay Theater" was across the street, near Symphony Hall, at I believe 209 Massachusetts Avenue. Just two years or so after the Beach Boys played there in April 1967 the Back Bay Theater was torn down, I think it was 1969.

The link to WRKO had this photo of the Back Bay Theater when the Beach Boys played in April 67:





And I took this photo from my window in 1995, one of my last days at that address. I woke up to this every day:



The large white apartment building complex is where the Back Bay Theater used to stand. If you notice to the right, there is a row of older style buildings and storefronts. Then the big white building which looks out of place, then Symphony Hall is on the far left on that same side of the street. In the older Theater photo you can see Symphony Hall in the distance as the street angles off to the left.

Many memories of that area, including seeing Brian Wilson perform one of his earliest "comeback" concerts in the 1990's at Symphony Hall. The photos and discussion triggered some nostalgia, so I had to dig out that old photo. That's called "progress", and it was popular in the late 60's and early 70's to tear down those old theaters and buildings to replace them with buildings like that apartment complex.

It was neat to catch a glimpse of what that street used to look like.
Logged

"All of us have the privilege of making music that helps and heals - to make music that makes people happier, stronger, and kinder. Don't forget: Music is God's voice." - Brian Wilson
Ian
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1833


View Profile
« Reply #42 on: January 18, 2011, 11:41:45 AM »

Cool-Wish I'd seen them then.  That was a stressful tour, however.  Carl was arrested in NYC and a whole nightmare began for him that lasted five years.  On top of that-by April 67 they had to really be sweating about the future of Smile, not to mention a little lawsuit with Capitol.
Logged
Bicyclerider
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 2132


View Profile
« Reply #43 on: January 18, 2011, 12:42:47 PM »


 
My personal opinion, like I said, is pretty darn close to what Brian (and company) eventually gave us:

Our Prayer (unlisted), possibly with "Gee" although I prefer it without it
Heroes And Villains ("two part" version, listed as one track)
Do You Like Worms (with lyrics, pretty much as they appeared in 2004)
The Old Master Painter ("Barnyard medley", 2004 arrangement, finishing with "Barnshine")
Cabin Essence
Wonderful
Child Is Father Of The Man (with lyrics, at least similar to 2004 version)

Good Vibrations (probably NOT preceded by "You're Welcome", tho I put it there on my person version, as my one indulgence)
I'm In Great Shape (medley)
Vega-Tables (I never thought of transitioning the workshop sounds into those of the vegetables but I totally believe that was Brain's plan from at least some point in the 60's)
Wind Chimes (either here or after "GV", possibly merged in some way with "Holiday", which probably went the way of "Trombone Dixie" by the time the tracklist was sent to Capital)
The Elements (as I said, kicking of with the mislabeled "H&V Intro", possibly ending with the "Water Chant", so technically two themes, four songs, and intro, and an outro)
Surf's Up






I agree with the songs of course - they are the track list on the back cover - but would change the order on side one:

Prayer
Do you Like Worms
Heroes and Villains
Cabinessence
Old Master Painter
Wonderful
Child is Father

It's fun to speculate how Brian would have finished the unfinished songs in 67, but 'intro to Heroes" is NOT a mislabelling, the session sheet is pretty clear that is what the piece is, despite David Leaf putting it in front of Fire in 1988 but it does sound good there.  I'm in Great Shape is a mystery because we don't know what would be included besides the "I'm in the great shape of the open country" fragment we have from the Heroes demo for humble harv miller.  But I believe I'm in Great Shape would have been the "Barnyard Suite" since the true Barnyard with animal noises was also excised from Heroes along with Great Shape and of course fits thematically as well as musically.



Logged
Chris Moise
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 192


View Profile
« Reply #44 on: January 19, 2011, 10:46:18 PM »

  • "I'm In Great Shape": Would it have been more than just the fragment? Or would "I Wanna Be Around" be included? "Workshop"? I doubt it.
  • "Child Is Father of The Man": Would it still have lead into "Surf's Up". It sure makes sense, but do we have any proof this was thought of before '03?
  • "Look": My guess is this was either discarded or possibly meant to be part of "Wonderful" as one track? Most likely discarded.

Still to me, that back cover tracklisting gives me trouble. How do "The Old Master Painter" and "I'm In Great Shape" warrant their own tracks.
Brian prepared a completed backing track for "CIFOTM" and after hearing it coupled with "Wonderful" on BWPS, I finally had the answer to the reasoning behind the latter's abrupt ending (as I'm sure many of you did).  I'd bet my life the two of them were always meant to go together..

Just as it is on BWPS, "I'm In Great Shape" is the self-titled piece, "I Wanna Be Around", and "Workshop".

I realize speculation is the nature of the beast but I think we know with a reasonable degree of certainity much more about Smile than many of the posts in this thread show. Of course, there are some MAJOR mysteries and questions we'll never have answered (Elements, the 1/67 SU session to name but two) but, for example..

- I don't get the speculation re Child going into Wonderful or Child leading into Surf's Up. Every bit of evidence shows that Smile was going to be an album of 12 roughly 3 minute pop songs with no segues, link tracks, or movements with the possible exception of within "The Elements".

- Owing to the missing IIGS vocal session (rec 10/17) I don't think we have a clue what it was. For me this is the biggest mystery of all, just what in the hell was IIGS? I don't think "I Wanna Be Around" (rec. 11/29) has anything to do with IIGS. It doesn't make sense that work on a new basic track would be started 6 weeks after the vocal session. That and "I Wanna Be Around" sounds *nothing* like the IIGS demo on Endless Harmony or the short backing track attempts.

- No way Look or Holidays were going to make the album. Clearly work was abandoned on both very early in the sessions and neither were close to completion. I'd kill to hear that lost Look vocal overdub session though.

- Hasn't it been confirmed that the 2004 Child verse lyrics were in fact newly written?
« Last Edit: January 19, 2011, 11:59:59 PM by Chris Moise » Logged
juggler
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1121


View Profile
« Reply #45 on: January 20, 2011, 01:57:56 PM »

- Hasn't it been confirmed that the 2004 Child verse lyrics were in fact newly written?

Yes.

Maybe someday the original verse lyrics will surface on a long-lost tape or acetate or David Oppenheim's legendary 'Inside Pop' outtakes & audio.
Logged
Jim V.
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Online Online

Posts: 3038



View Profile
« Reply #46 on: January 21, 2011, 11:11:45 PM »

- Hasn't it been confirmed that the 2004 Child verse lyrics were in fact newly written?

Yes.

Maybe someday the original verse lyrics will surface on a long-lost tape or acetate or David Oppenheim's legendary 'Inside Pop' outtakes & audio.

Not that I don't believe this, but where was this confirmed?
Logged
Jeff
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 545



View Profile
« Reply #47 on: January 27, 2011, 01:56:26 PM »


 
My personal opinion, like I said, is pretty darn close to what Brian (and company) eventually gave us:

Our Prayer (unlisted), possibly with "Gee" although I prefer it without it
Heroes And Villains ("two part" version, listed as one track)
Do You Like Worms (with lyrics, pretty much as they appeared in 2004)
The Old Master Painter ("Barnyard medley", 2004 arrangement, finishing with "Barnshine")
Cabin Essence
Wonderful
Child Is Father Of The Man (with lyrics, at least similar to 2004 version)

Good Vibrations (probably NOT preceded by "You're Welcome", tho I put it there on my person version, as my one indulgence)
I'm In Great Shape (medley)
Vega-Tables (I never thought of transitioning the workshop sounds into those of the vegetables but I totally believe that was Brain's plan from at least some point in the 60's)
Wind Chimes (either here or after "GV", possibly merged in some way with "Holiday", which probably went the way of "Trombone Dixie" by the time the tracklist was sent to Capital)
The Elements (as I said, kicking of with the mislabeled "H&V Intro", possibly ending with the "Water Chant", so technically two themes, four songs, and intro, and an outro)
Surf's Up






I agree with the songs of course - they are the track list on the back cover - but would change the order on side one:

Prayer
Do you Like Worms
Heroes and Villains
Cabinessence
Old Master Painter
Wonderful
Child is Father

It's fun to speculate how Brian would have finished the unfinished songs in 67, but 'intro to Heroes" is NOT a mislabelling, the session sheet is pretty clear that is what the piece is, despite David Leaf putting it in front of Fire in 1988 but it does sound good there.  I'm in Great Shape is a mystery because we don't know what would be included besides the "I'm in the great shape of the open country" fragment we have from the Heroes demo for humble harv miller.  But I believe I'm in Great Shape would have been the "Barnyard Suite" since the true Barnyard with animal noises was also excised from Heroes along with Great Shape and of course fits thematically as well as musically.






I agree that the piece labeled H&V Intro is NOT the intro to Fire.  In addition to the fact that it is on the session sheet that way, it was released on the box set as H&V intro, AFTER David Leaf's apparently mistaken claim.

Also, it just doesn't make sense from a practical standpoint.  The Elements was to consist of four pieces. Fire by itself clocks in at 1:39.  If you were to add the :35 intro, that would make it 2:14--with three elements left to add!  So then you're faced with a situation in which The Elements is either a very long track, or a standard-length track that is completely dominated by Fire.  I don't think either of those possibilities are very likely, especially given the other evidence that the intro belongs to H&V.

Plus, listen to the whistles that open and close H&V intro--they're the same whistles as are periodically heard on H&V cantina.  To my ears, the intro was pretty clearly made for H&V.

Now maybe Brian thought at one point of making Fire a separate track, or simply replacing The Elements with Fire.  In that situation, I could see a credible argument that Brian might have moved the intro over, but I don't know of any evidence that Fire was ever thought of as a separate track.
Logged
Jeff
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 545



View Profile
« Reply #48 on: January 27, 2011, 02:13:38 PM »

  • "I'm In Great Shape": Would it have been more than just the fragment? Or would "I Wanna Be Around" be included? "Workshop"? I doubt it.
  • "Child Is Father of The Man": Would it still have lead into "Surf's Up". It sure makes sense, but do we have any proof this was thought of before '03?
  • "Look": My guess is this was either discarded or possibly meant to be part of "Wonderful" as one track? Most likely discarded.

Still to me, that back cover tracklisting gives me trouble. How do "The Old Master Painter" and "I'm In Great Shape" warrant their own tracks.
Brian prepared a completed backing track for "CIFOTM" and after hearing it coupled with "Wonderful" on BWPS, I finally had the answer to the reasoning behind the latter's abrupt ending (as I'm sure many of you did).  I'd bet my life the two of them were always meant to go together..

Just as it is on BWPS, "I'm In Great Shape" is the self-titled piece, "I Wanna Be Around", and "Workshop".

I realize speculation is the nature of the beast but I think we know with a reasonable degree of certainity much more about Smile than many of the posts in this thread show. Of course, there are some MAJOR mysteries and questions we'll never have answered (Elements, the 1/67 SU session to name but two) but, for example..

- I don't get the speculation re Child going into Wonderful or Child leading into Surf's Up. Every bit of evidence shows that Smile was going to be an album of 12 roughly 3 minute pop songs with no segues, link tracks, or movements with the possible exception of within "The Elements".

- Owing to the missing IIGS vocal session (rec 10/17) I don't think we have a clue what it was. For me this is the biggest mystery of all, just what in the hell was IIGS? I don't think "I Wanna Be Around" (rec. 11/29) has anything to do with IIGS. It doesn't make sense that work on a new basic track would be started 6 weeks after the vocal session. That and "I Wanna Be Around" sounds *nothing* like the IIGS demo on Endless Harmony or the short backing track attempts.

- No way Look or Holidays were going to make the album. Clearly work was abandoned on both very early in the sessions and neither were close to completion. I'd kill to hear that lost Look vocal overdub session though.

- Hasn't it been confirmed that the 2004 Child verse lyrics were in fact newly written?


It's interesting that no one is mentioning that I Wanna Be Around/Friday Night were labeled on the session sheets as belonging to I'mIn Great Shape.  I think it's a big mistake to simply dismiss that listing as an error, without any evidence that it was in fact erroneous.  Why couldn't the track consist, at least in part, of the "great shape" lyrics, followed by the tape explosion, I Wanna Be Around and the woodshop noises?  That order sounds to me like it works, and it was in that sequence on BWPS.  Without other evidence, it seems to me that is by far the most likely possibility.

As for the Barnyard Suite, I agree with the earlier poster that it was most likely the same as The Old Master Painter--meaning Barnyard, followed by The Old Master Painter, followed by You Are My Sunshine, followed by the cantina fade with YAMS overdubs.  Of course, Brian later used the cantina fade for H&V, so he may well have abandoned this track altogether, but I think the above sequence probably was used at one point in the process.
Logged
BJL
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 333


View Profile
« Reply #49 on: January 27, 2011, 05:18:41 PM »

It's interesting that no one is mentioning that I Wanna Be Around/Friday Night were labeled on the session sheets as belonging to I'mIn Great Shape.  I think it's a big mistake to simply dismiss that listing as an error, without any evidence that it was in fact erroneous.  Why couldn't the track consist, at least in part, of the "great shape" lyrics, followed by the tape explosion, I Wanna Be Around and the woodshop noises?  That order sounds to me like it works, and it was in that sequence on BWPS.  Without other evidence, it seems to me that is by far the most likely possibility.

As for the Barnyard Suite, I agree with the earlier poster that it was most likely the same as The Old Master Painter--meaning Barnyard, followed by The Old Master Painter, followed by You Are My Sunshine, followed by the cantina fade with YAMS overdubs.  Of course, Brian later used the cantina fade for H&V, so he may well have abandoned this track altogether, but I think the above sequence probably was used at one point in the process.

Not questioning, just curious: what is the evidence for barnyard going to old master painter?
Logged
gfx
Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 Go Up Print 
gfx
Jump to:  
gfx
Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines Page created in 0.964 seconds with 22 queries.
Helios Multi design by Bloc
gfx
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!