gfxgfx
 
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
logo
 
gfx gfx
gfx
680599 Posts in 27601 Topics by 4068 Members - Latest Member: Dae Lims March 29, 2024, 02:00:30 AM
*
gfx*HomeHelpSearchCalendarLoginRegistergfx
gfxgfx
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.       « previous next »
Pages: 1 2 3 4 [5] 6 7 8 9 Go Down Print
Author Topic: Mike Love wanted the Beach Boys to finish SMiLE  (Read 33999 times)
Cam Mott
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 4171


View Profile
« Reply #100 on: January 14, 2011, 09:56:21 AM »

My theory is there was at least another version of H&V after the "cantina", based on there being additional H&V recordings post that mix.

The master for H&V side/part 2 was presumably to include that which was i.d.ed as for Part/Side 2 master, maybe some additional material hard to say. My guess is both parts/sides were finished in March and they together were what was thereafter heard/discussed as the [one of?] 5 or 6 minute H&V.

There is the objection that Brian said in February that he wasn't sure and didn't want to give away too much of SMiLE on the single. That might have meant the OMP fade which he included in the H&V mix or it might have meant what he had done so far for H&V Part 2, both sampled SMiLE at the time. My theory could fly in the face of that if he meant Part 2 except, Brian began recordings that would give away SMiLE on Part 2 in January and he resumed recordings which would give away SMiLE in Part 2 in later February. It seems to me this leave room for Brian to have started Part 2 as a SMiLE sampler, then Feb. he's not sure and stops, then presumably changes his mind and resumes sampling SMiLE for Part 2. Or he might have meant he didn't want to give away too much with H&V side 1 but that wouldn't make as much sense to me.
Logged

"Bring me the head of Carmen Sandiego" Lynne "The Chief" Thigpen
donald
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 2485



View Profile
« Reply #101 on: January 14, 2011, 10:04:29 PM »

smile shop lives!
Logged
guitarfool2002
Global Moderator
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 9996


"Barba non facit aliam historici"


View Profile WWW
« Reply #102 on: January 15, 2011, 12:08:12 AM »

There is the objection that Brian said in February that he wasn't sure and didn't want to give away too much of SMiLE on the single...

...Or he might have meant he didn't want to give away too much with H&V side 1 but that wouldn't make as much sense to me.

Just a few posts earlier I said this:
That "In The Cantina" mix has not only the surprise/humor element which what Brian's whole trip for Smile, but also the radical sound effects (tape explosion/distortion), the musical effects (French Horn overblowing), the general pulse and drive of the track which was closer to the production feel of Good Vibrations, and a moment of sheer beauty (the whole In The Cantina middle section, which is stunning as a standalone piece of music).

I think it makes perfect sense. Heroes And Villains, the "Cantina" mix, is a microcosm of the full Smile album. Especially, specifically, and emphatically the kind of humor leading to enlightenment or humor leading to beauty trip which Vosse described so well in the Fusion article. It's all there in a few minutes, from the new production tricks to the modular songwriting, from the humor to the Old West travelogue, finally to the beauty of a melody over delicate chords contrasted with jarring discordant and non-melodic voices.

Everything in Brian's then-current bag of tricks as a producer and songwriter which he wanted to use for Smile might be found in that Heroes mix if you listen for it.

Makes perfect sense to me if Brian thought he put all his eggs in one basket, in the form of a single like Heroes versus a full album.

In that case I don't believe the sampler notion at all, and the "not wanting to give away too much" of the album statement fits well with that Heroes Cantina mixdown.
Logged

"All of us have the privilege of making music that helps and heals - to make music that makes people happier, stronger, and kinder. Don't forget: Music is God's voice." - Brian Wilson
guitarfool2002
Global Moderator
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 9996


"Barba non facit aliam historici"


View Profile WWW
« Reply #103 on: January 15, 2011, 12:10:34 AM »

smile shop lives!

Yes
Logged

"All of us have the privilege of making music that helps and heals - to make music that makes people happier, stronger, and kinder. Don't forget: Music is God's voice." - Brian Wilson
Cam Mott
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 4171


View Profile
« Reply #104 on: January 15, 2011, 05:25:51 AM »

There is the objection that Brian said in February that he wasn't sure and didn't want to give away too much of SMiLE on the single...

...Or he might have meant he didn't want to give away too much with H&V side 1 but that wouldn't make as much sense to me.

Just a few posts earlier I said this:
That "In The Cantina" mix has not only the surprise/humor element which what Brian's whole trip for Smile, but also the radical sound effects (tape explosion/distortion), the musical effects (French Horn overblowing), the general pulse and drive of the track which was closer to the production feel of Good Vibrations, and a moment of sheer beauty (the whole In The Cantina middle section, which is stunning as a standalone piece of music).

I think it makes perfect sense. Heroes And Villains, the "Cantina" mix, is a microcosm of the full Smile album. Especially, specifically, and emphatically the kind of humor leading to enlightenment or humor leading to beauty trip which Vosse described so well in the Fusion article. It's all there in a few minutes, from the new production tricks to the modular songwriting, from the humor to the Old West travelogue, finally to the beauty of a melody over delicate chords contrasted with jarring discordant and non-melodic voices.

Everything in Brian's then-current bag of tricks as a producer and songwriter which he wanted to use for Smile might be found in that Heroes mix if you listen for it.

Makes perfect sense to me if Brian thought he put all his eggs in one basket, in the form of a single like Heroes versus a full album.

In that case I don't believe the sampler notion at all, and the "not wanting to give away too much" of the album statement fits well with that Heroes Cantina mixdown.

Yep, I see your point. I just am looking at it from a more literal angle, as direct quotes from the album tracks. To me Part 2 is that literal, it is all and only [as far as we know] direct quotes from other album tracks but with a twist that gives them their own identity as H&V Part 2 apart from the album track from which they are sampled. That and more Part 2 sessions are post the cantina mix, so whatever happened to or after cantina, Part 2 happened also. I just suspect that the H&V [part/side1] sessions following cantina mix altered it some way we might be able to guess at if we knew what was recorded -and- Part 2 happened also in those post-cantina sessions which we know are samples of album tracks. Anyway, I lost my point and I'm repeating myself - so...............[wanders off]
Logged

"Bring me the head of Carmen Sandiego" Lynne "The Chief" Thigpen
Been Too Long
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 47


View Profile
« Reply #105 on: January 15, 2011, 12:01:54 PM »

This goes back to the old smileshop, I think, but the sampler theory went like this:

Brian made a statement to a reporter that he had made the final mix of Heroes the night before but didn’t know what to put on the other side of the single. From this statement we know that a) Heroes at that time only covered one side of the 45 so not yet a two sided single and, b) Heroes was short enough to fit on only one side (probably around 3 minutes, maybe a little longer?)

About a month later Mike plays a tape to a reporter of Heroes that is 5 to 6 minutes long.

So during that month the composition and recording of the second side of the two sided single took place. So what was recorded then?

Well the article where Brian makes the statement about mixing Heroes came out in mid February ’67 and I believe the safety copy tape is dated February 10th 1967, I’d need to look it up. The Mike article is from late March so the second side of Heroes was recorded between those dates.

There were five tracking dates between that time for Heroes (the only smile track still being worked on): February 15th, 27th, 28th, and March 1st and 2nd all at Western. Van Dyke Parks was back working on the project again and is heard on the session tapes helping to work out the new sections. Four track sections were produced from these sessions:

“Prelude to Fade” (the country and western theme)
“Fade to Heroes and Villains”
“Intro to Heroes and Villains” (from the GV Boxset)
“Heroes and Villains Side 2” (the Bicycle Rider theme with the heavy bass and percussion, this became the chorus for the Smiley version of Heroes)

There were also several vocal sessions between Feb 15th and March 2nd but they do not appear to have been heard. So going from just the tracks you’d have about 2 minutes of music. If added to the end of the Heroes 3 minute single the whole thing would last about 5 to 6 minutes.

The sampler idea is that each of those four sections quotes a different song from Smile:
“Prelude to Fade” is the verse of Heroes and Villains
“Fade to Heroes and Villains” is the last section of The Old Master Painter
“Intro to Heroes and Villains” The Elements? It sounds like the fire track a little
“Heroes and Villains Side 2” is the chorus of Do You Like Worms but in a key that works with Heroes (Heroes in C#, Worms chorus in C, but HaV Side 2 is in G#)

Each one of these sections would then have had Heroes adapted lyrics recorded over the top of them in the way that “Bicycle Rider just see what you’ve done” became “Heroes and Villains just see what you’ve done.” During the session for “Prelude to Fade” Brian and Van discuss lyrics to be recorded over that section of music so that adds weight to this idea.

This also explains why Brian is re-recording sections of preexisting songs, in the case of the Fade an exact duplicate, 3 to 4 months after the original was completed all under the title of HaV and at the end of two months of Heroes sessions.

That’s what I remember of that idea. I may have saved those threads off the bravenet board so I’ll look to see if I can find any other info on this stuff. I also remember hearing about the rumored Pet Sounds sampler but it may have been from the same erroneous source.
Logged
Cam Mott
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 4171


View Profile
« Reply #106 on: January 16, 2011, 05:59:43 AM »

OK, in my theory you keep track of what is for what by the master number so sessions relevant to the final SMiLE single are 57020 for the part/side 1 of H&V and 57045 for the part/side 2 of H&V.

So for part 1 there are several sessions beginning on Dec 19 1966 unless someone has earlier documentation for  #57020.

Part 2 is:

Jan 5: DYLW sample [labeled "Side 2"]
Feb 27: something recorded at Western with 4 musicians including Gene Estes
Feb 28: "Fade out" - The re-recorded more sombre? OMP fade with Carl's vocal
March 1: "Intro" - Fire sample
March 2: "Insert" - something recorded at Western by 5 musicians and Hal Blaine

I suppose some of the vocal sessions were probably for Part 2 also but I don't have any documentation. I was supposed to BE getting whatever was available once but it never happened.

The Feb 15 "prelude to fade" would be on 57020 Part 1 in my theory.

What tracks associated with H&V have that flappy sounding thingy or kind of like a baseball card in your bike spokes?

Logged

"Bring me the head of Carmen Sandiego" Lynne "The Chief" Thigpen
buddhahat
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 2643


Hi, my name's Doug. Would you like to dance?


View Profile
« Reply #107 on: January 17, 2011, 02:13:00 AM »

This goes back to the old smileshop, I think, but the sampler theory went like this:

Brian made a statement to a reporter that he had made the final mix of Heroes the night before but didn’t know what to put on the other side of the single. From this statement we know that a) Heroes at that time only covered one side of the 45 so not yet a two sided single and, b) Heroes was short enough to fit on only one side (probably around 3 minutes, maybe a little longer?)

About a month later Mike plays a tape to a reporter of Heroes that is 5 to 6 minutes long.

So during that month the composition and recording of the second side of the two sided single took place. So what was recorded then?

Well the article where Brian makes the statement about mixing Heroes came out in mid February ’67 and I believe the safety copy tape is dated February 10th 1967, I’d need to look it up. The Mike article is from late March so the second side of Heroes was recorded between those dates.

There were five tracking dates between that time for Heroes (the only smile track still being worked on): February 15th, 27th, 28th, and March 1st and 2nd all at Western. Van Dyke Parks was back working on the project again and is heard on the session tapes helping to work out the new sections. Four track sections were produced from these sessions:

“Prelude to Fade” (the country and western theme)
“Fade to Heroes and Villains”
“Intro to Heroes and Villains” (from the GV Boxset)
“Heroes and Villains Side 2” (the Bicycle Rider theme with the heavy bass and percussion, this became the chorus for the Smiley version of Heroes)

There were also several vocal sessions between Feb 15th and March 2nd but they do not appear to have been heard. So going from just the tracks you’d have about 2 minutes of music. If added to the end of the Heroes 3 minute single the whole thing would last about 5 to 6 minutes.

The sampler idea is that each of those four sections quotes a different song from Smile:
“Prelude to Fade” is the verse of Heroes and Villains
“Fade to Heroes and Villains” is the last section of The Old Master Painter
“Intro to Heroes and Villains” The Elements? It sounds like the fire track a little
“Heroes and Villains Side 2” is the chorus of Do You Like Worms but in a key that works with Heroes (Heroes in C#, Worms chorus in C, but HaV Side 2 is in G#)

Each one of these sections would then have had Heroes adapted lyrics recorded over the top of them in the way that “Bicycle Rider just see what you’ve done” became “Heroes and Villains just see what you’ve done.” During the session for “Prelude to Fade” Brian and Van discuss lyrics to be recorded over that section of music so that adds weight to this idea.

This also explains why Brian is re-recording sections of preexisting songs, in the case of the Fade an exact duplicate, 3 to 4 months after the original was completed all under the title of HaV and at the end of two months of Heroes sessions.

That’s what I remember of that idea. I may have saved those threads off the bravenet board so I’ll look to see if I can find any other info on this stuff. I also remember hearing about the rumored Pet Sounds sampler but it may have been from the same erroneous source.


Great post , thanks for this info.

So it's not too much of a stretch to suppose the 5/6 min H&V might have had roughly the following structure:

a1. Heroes Cantina mix up to tape explosion
a2. Prelude to Fade
a3. Fade re-record with Carl's vocals

b1. Heroes Intro
b2. Do You Like Worms chorus
b3. ?

What could've followed the Worms section - perhaps another fade? What would the part 2 fade have been: Tag to Part 1 (The Do A Lot variation)? Barnyard?

Where do Gee and the "Dit Dit Dit heroes & Villains" variations & Swedish Frog fit into all this? Gee has always sounded like an intro and I've never managed to reconcile it with the Heroes Intro. When were Gee etc. recorded? Could they have usurped some of the part 2 recording mentioned above?
« Last Edit: January 17, 2011, 02:14:59 AM by buddhahat » Logged

Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes ......
buddhahat
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 2643


Hi, my name's Doug. Would you like to dance?


View Profile
« Reply #108 on: January 18, 2011, 02:55:26 AM »

Where do Gee and the "Dit Dit Dit heroes & Villains" variations & Swedish Frog fit into all this? Gee has always sounded like an intro and I've never managed to reconcile it with the Heroes Intro. When were Gee etc. recorded? Could they have usurped some of the part 2 recording mentioned above?


Sorry to reply to and quote my own post, but just considering my previous question:

If Heroes Part 2 at an early stage consisted of Heroes Intro and the minor key bicycle Rider theme, how does this fit with the other pieces that were apparently recorded for part 2 of H&V, i.e. Gee, Swedish Frog and the major key bike rider theme variations? The biggest curiosity for me is that there were potentially two intro pieces for Part 2: Heroes Intro (the whistles & bells one) and Gee. I know there's no evidence for Gee being the intro to Part 2 but it certainly sounds like an opener.

Not sure if the dates back this up, but could it be that Gee, Swedish Frog and the major key bike rider variations replaced the initial Part 2 sections, i.e. Heroes Intro and Minor Key bike rider section? Perhaps as a direct result of Brian deciding to use the minor key bike rider section as part of the main H&V single, rather than as part of the b-side?
Logged

Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes ......
guitarfool2002
Global Moderator
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 9996


"Barba non facit aliam historici"


View Profile WWW
« Reply #109 on: January 18, 2011, 08:01:55 AM »

Where do Gee and the "Dit Dit Dit heroes & Villains" variations & Swedish Frog fit into all this? Gee has always sounded like an intro and I've never managed to reconcile it with the Heroes Intro. When were Gee etc. recorded? Could they have usurped some of the part 2 recording mentioned above?


Sorry to reply to and quote my own post, but just considering my previous question:

If Heroes Part 2 at an early stage consisted of Heroes Intro and the minor key bicycle Rider theme, how does this fit with the other pieces that were apparently recorded for part 2 of H&V, i.e. Gee, Swedish Frog and the major key bike rider theme variations? The biggest curiosity for me is that there were potentially two intro pieces for Part 2: Heroes Intro (the whistles & bells one) and Gee. I know there's no evidence for Gee being the intro to Part 2 but it certainly sounds like an opener.

Not sure if the dates back this up, but could it be that Gee, Swedish Frog and the major key bike rider variations replaced the initial Part 2 sections, i.e. Heroes Intro and Minor Key bike rider section? Perhaps as a direct result of Brian deciding to use the minor key bike rider section as part of the main H&V single, rather than as part of the b-side?

First, consider the theory that the Heroes "Intro" was nothing more than a mistake in naming the piece, because even in the years since it showed up that way on the box set it's been more accepted that it was a part of the Fire element much more than any part of Heroes, down to the key and the general flow of the tune. As much as even the most arcane or tuneless fragments labeled "Heroes" still seem to share a common texture or mood or whatever, that "Intro" piece simply fits better with Fire than anything on heroes, and that includes Swedish Frog too!

With the keys, and major or minor, part of that piece I re-posted in the Smile Jigsaw thread mentions how some of the chords fit into a bigger scheme. For example, Brian in several places throughout Smile does a ii-V chord riff or motif, one great example is Bicycle Rider. Those chords can be looked at in context of what harmonies surround them, and where if anywhere specific do they resolve.

If you hear a song like Santana's "Evil Ways", it's a ii-V jam tune, and in that case it's a modal minor sound, based on the Dorian mode. It's heard as a minor-modal song. If you hear Bicycle Rider, in the context of "Do You Like Worms", it's the same ii-V chord progression (G minor to C), but in the case of Worms it's in the context of a piece written in F major. G minor to C major, within the key of F major, is the strongest resolution of chords in a jazz harmony context. The ii-V is the building block of jazz harmony, and if you see a G minor to C major phrase eventually leading to F major, that phrase would be analyzed as a ii-V in F major rather than a standalone minor key or modal progression.

If there is a piece like Bicycle Rider which is G minor to C major, it would not fit nor would it resolve into the key of Heroes which is C#. I cannot remember, did Brian do Bicycle Rider in another key to fit Heroes as well, or did he simply graft the G minor version from Worms onto a comp reel of some kind that became "Part 2"? I'm thinking he raised the key at some point to take it out of Worms.
Logged

"All of us have the privilege of making music that helps and heals - to make music that makes people happier, stronger, and kinder. Don't forget: Music is God's voice." - Brian Wilson
buddhahat
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 2643


Hi, my name's Doug. Would you like to dance?


View Profile
« Reply #110 on: January 19, 2011, 12:25:21 AM »

Hi Guitar Fool,

Thanks for the chord info. I play guitar but my theory is terrible so it is always interesting to hear the more theoretical perspective on the Smile music.

The bicycle rider section was rerecorded in a key compatible with Heroes and this is probably most easily demonstrated by taking a listen to Heroes Sections from the GV boxset - there are two bike rider sections, one with lone piano, and the other with train-like percussion (which I think was later used as a backing track on the H&V 45 but may be mistaken). They obviously sit very comfortably within H&V's key of C#.

Heroes Intro I was certain was a Heroes, not Elements, track but couldn't remember why I'd reached this conclusion other than from what I've read here. However, I see Bicycle Rider is asserting in another currently active thread that the session material places Heroes Intro very much as a H&V track and that its association with Fire stems from the two pieces being erroneously tacked together by David Leaf in 88. Imo it actually doesn't sound especially out of place when grouped with the moodier Heroes sections such as the Bike Rider theme - especially as it's bells and whistles remind me of some sort of runaway train. I think if we didn't have a complete edit of Cabinessence, we might struggle to reconcile the Home On The Range sections with Who Ran The Iron Horse - Brian was doing all sorts of discordant couplings at that point and I believe Heroes Intro was quite typical of this.
Logged

Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes ......
Bicyclerider
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 2132


View Profile
« Reply #111 on: January 19, 2011, 07:24:29 AM »



First, consider the theory that the Heroes "Intro" was nothing more than a mistake in naming the piece, because even in the years since it showed up that way on the box set it's been more accepted that it was a part of the Fire element much more than any part of Heroes, down to the key and the general flow of the tune. As much as even the most arcane or tuneless fragments labeled "Heroes" still seem to share a common texture or mood or whatever, that "Intro" piece simply fits better with Fire than anything on heroes, and that includes Swedish Frog too!




[/quote]

Nice theory, but it's wrong - it is NOT "accepted" that the Heroes intro was a part of the Fire element, it clearly was   recorded as Heroes intro and was logged as a "Heroes Part Two" session, this in early March when Brian was working on the final mixes of the 2 parted single.  He recorded overdubs on the Intro to Heroes and that too was still titled "Intro to Heroes" so the chance it would be mislabeled twice is nonexistent.  You're not alone in thinking it goes well with Fire, but then Prayer goes better before Worms then before the cold opening of Heroes (cantina mix), but does that mean that's where it belongs?  In your personal mix perhaps, but ascribing an intention of Brian's to put something clearly recorded and labeled as Intro to Heroes as part of Fire in 1967 has absolutely no basis.  David Leaf put it before Fire without any input from Brian when the Smile tapes were looked at for a possible release in 1988.

As for the two parted single - the article where Mike plays the 5 or 6 minute single to a reporter was in June, right after the Monterey Pop Festival.  That's three months plus after Part 1/cantina was mixed, not one month.  But it seems all work on the Smile 2 sided version ceased after March from the recording record. 

Not all sections recorded as "Part 2" would necessarily have ended up as the side two single - for example, the Bicycle Rider Worms chorus.  That was recorded in January and probably was to be part of the A side, as it appears to be edited in with the familiar verses of the cantina version on the SOT mix attempts.  It was likely rejected as it then did not appear on the cantina version in February - AND Brian subsequently recorded what would be the chorus of the Smiley single as a "Part 2" section, so that the Worms chorus was no longer needed. 
Logged
Andrew G. Doe
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 17767


The triumph of The Hickey Script !


View Profile WWW
« Reply #112 on: January 19, 2011, 08:07:03 AM »

As for the two parted single - the article where Mike plays the 5 or 6 minute single to a reporter was in June, right after the Monterey Pop Festival. 

July 8th 1967 is the date of the report... and Mike played the reporter a tape, not a single acetate, which lasted six minutes. Mike also stated "there are about six different tapes of this number about and now it is just a matter of selecting the right one". So... Mike didn't play anyone a 5-6 minute two-part single, he played one of half a dozen different tapes, which happened to last six minutes. No mention of two sides by anyone in the report. Them's the facts.
Logged

The four sweetest words in my vocabulary: "This poster is ignored".
Bicyclerider
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 2132


View Profile
« Reply #113 on: January 19, 2011, 09:43:05 AM »

Well, if that 5-6 minute version was to be the single, then it would have to be 2 sided, wouldn't it? 

But you're right, he doesn't mention two sides.

As for the side two being a Smile "sampler" - I think the explanation is much more straightforward and easy than that.  In constructing Part 2 of Heroes, Brian was ransacking ideas from other songs he had been working on.  Just as he took Barnshine to end Part 1/the cantina version.  Was Part 1 also a "sampler" because it used a section from another song?  No, Brian was just using sections to knit together a Heroes "suite" like he did for Good Vibrations.  And what sections labeled Part 2 are parts of other songs?  Besides the remake of Barnshine as the tag for Part 2 (already in Part 1), and the Heroes and Villains chorus recycling the Bicycle Rider of Worms (in a different key), that's about it.  This hardly a "sampler" makes.  Sometimes we overthink things, and it's really simpler than we want it to be.  And if Brian wanted as much of Smile to be a surprise as possible, why would he do a "sampler" on the Bside?  When he said he wanted as much to be a surprise as possible and didn't know what he was going to do on the Bside, he mentioned he might do something with just him and the piano.  Again, not really consistent with the sampler theory.  Could be he was referring to the piano version of the Bicycle Rider theme.

Now for the Pet sounds sampler/medley - I have no clue if it exists or not.  A strange idea if it's true.  I'd think that might be something appropriate for a promo single rather than a commercial release.
Logged
Andrew G. Doe
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 17767


The triumph of The Hickey Script !


View Profile WWW
« Reply #114 on: January 19, 2011, 10:02:22 AM »

Sometimes we overthink things, and it's really simpler than we want it to be. 

 Grin

Two words: Occam's Razor.
Logged

The four sweetest words in my vocabulary: "This poster is ignored".
guitarfool2002
Global Moderator
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 9996


"Barba non facit aliam historici"


View Profile WWW
« Reply #115 on: January 19, 2011, 10:33:29 AM »


Nice theory, but it's wrong - it is NOT "accepted" that the Heroes intro was a part of the Fire element, it clearly was   recorded as Heroes intro and was logged as a "Heroes Part Two" session, this in early March when Brian was working on the final mixes of the 2 parted single.  He recorded overdubs on the Intro to Heroes and that too was still titled "Intro to Heroes" so the chance it would be mislabeled twice is nonexistent.  You're not alone in thinking it goes well with Fire, but then Prayer goes better before Worms then before the cold opening of Heroes (cantina mix), but does that mean that's where it belongs?  In your personal mix perhaps, but ascribing an intention of Brian's to put something clearly recorded and labeled as Intro to Heroes as part of Fire in 1967 has absolutely no basis.  David Leaf put it before Fire without any input from Brian when the Smile tapes were looked at for a possible release in 1988.


But consider this:

Where is that so-called "Intro" piece on Brian Wilson's own "personal mix" of Smile, the Grammy winning mix we call BWPS? Not mine, but Brian's?

It appears AS PART OF FIRE! He accepted it, the audience accepted, his collaborators accepted it, so it seems to be at least somewhat accepted. Either way, it's on the closest thing to an official Smile album from the man himself. Did he at some point prior to 1988 or 2003 possibly try to put it together himself, or did he take David Leaf's cue, perhaps it sounded better, and went with that version of "Fire"?

He won a Grammy for that very Fire piece, too. I have never, but never, made a personal mix of Smile so whatever acceptance of Fire as many now know it in the context of a finished Smile appears just as Brian put his name on the creation. And whatever was once labeled "H&V Intro" is known to the masses as part of Fire.

 Smiley



Logged

"All of us have the privilege of making music that helps and heals - to make music that makes people happier, stronger, and kinder. Don't forget: Music is God's voice." - Brian Wilson
guitarfool2002
Global Moderator
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 9996


"Barba non facit aliam historici"


View Profile WWW
« Reply #116 on: January 19, 2011, 10:56:57 AM »




In this photo, he's holding the Grammy he just won for "Heroes And Villains Intro". Grin
Logged

"All of us have the privilege of making music that helps and heals - to make music that makes people happier, stronger, and kinder. Don't forget: Music is God's voice." - Brian Wilson
Been Too Long
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 47


View Profile
« Reply #117 on: January 19, 2011, 10:58:33 AM »


 Brian subsequently recorded what would be the chorus of the Smiley single as a "Part 2" section, so that the Worms chorus was no longer needed.  

Alan Boyd stated in 2001 when he was doing the new mix of Heroes for the “Hawthorn” cd that the chorus track (Bicycle rider theme with the “train like percussion”) was actually logged as "Heroes and Villians Side Two" on the original tape box. I seem to remember that being from the session on February 27th 1967.
Does anyone still have access to the expanded liner notes from “Hawthorn?” They’re not on the Capital website anymore; I think some of this information is from there.


July 8th 1967 is the date of the report... and Mike played the reporter a tape, not a single acetate, which lasted six minutes. Mike also stated "there are about six different tapes of this number about and now it is just a matter of selecting the right one". So... Mike didn't play anyone a 5-6 minute two-part single, he played one of half a dozen different tapes, which happened to last six minutes. No mention of two sides by anyone in the report. Them's the facts.

The article I was remembering was titled “Beach Boys’ New Single to Last Five Minutes” and I think it was from March '67. At least from before the single was switched to vegetables in April. The article where Mike plays that tape states that the interview took place 3 days after Monterey which would be, June 21st? I must have put the two articles together in my mind. Does anyone know the date of the “Single to Last Five Minutes” article I mentioned? It may have been a clipping I saw in LLVS, sounds like something Derek Taylor would have put out. I don’t have my copy available right now.

Anything 5 minutes or longer, if it were released as one single, had to have been split over two sides of a 45 rpm record. It just wouldn’t fit on a single side.

The “cantina” mix is from a tape box labeled “’heros & villains’ as of 2/10/67 master” and is a safety copy. The time is listed as “2:57 MASTER” The article where Brian talks about mixing the single is from NME for the week ending February 18, 1967, by Tracy Thomas in the “America calling” section. It states, “THE Beach Boys next single, ‘Heroes And Villains’, will be released as soon as Brian Wilson decides on the B-side. Brian told me this week, ‘I’m doing the final mix on the A-side tonight, but I can’t decide what to do on the other side.”
He then runs through some options (Pet Sounds tracks, piano solo, but not another Smile track) but doesn’t mention a 2 sided single as something he had thought about. Two weeks later he records the section called “Heroes and Villians Side Two.”

For several reasons that interview had to have taken place on February 10th, but before the 15th at very latest.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2011, 11:32:38 AM by Been Too Long » Logged
Been Too Long
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 47


View Profile
« Reply #118 on: January 19, 2011, 11:13:14 AM »

OK, in my theory you keep track of what is for what by the master number so sessions relevant to the final SMiLE single are 57020 for the part/side 1 of H&V and 57045 for the part/side 2 of H&V.

So for part 1 there are several sessions beginning on Dec 19 1966 unless someone has earlier documentation for  #57020.

Part 2 is:

Jan 5: DYLW sample [labeled "Side 2"]
Feb 27: something recorded at Western with 4 musicians including Gene Estes
Feb 28: "Fade out" - The re-recorded more sombre? OMP fade with Carl's vocal
March 1: "Intro" - Fire sample
March 2: "Insert" - something recorded at Western by 5 musicians and Hal Blaine

I suppose some of the vocal sessions were probably for Part 2 also but I don't have any documentation. I was supposed to BE getting whatever was available once but it never happened.

The Feb 15 "prelude to fade" would be on 57020 Part 1 in my theory.

What tracks associated with H&V have that flappy sounding thingy or kind of like a baseball card in your bike spokes?



I gave up on tape master numbers after spending some time working with a guy that worked extensively in the recording industry in the 60’s and 70’s. The simple answer is that the number is identifying a reel of tape for library purposes but doesn’t tell anything about the music on it or its purpose. Even worse, Brian was taking these track masters to Columbia studios and bouncing them to one track on an 8 track tape for the vocals. This 8 track tape would get a new, different master number assigned to it. That would be the much more important master number anyways since its closer to the end of the process. Plus adding in the scooping and cutting up of tape Brian was doing (i.e. Wind Chimes) and well, it's a mess. If you have any better information on this let me know, I once spent a lot of time working out which section matched each master number but it never really made any sense.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2011, 11:36:38 AM by Been Too Long » Logged
OneEar/OneEye
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 321


View Profile
« Reply #119 on: January 19, 2011, 12:18:27 PM »


Anything 5 minutes or longer, if it were released as one single, had to have been split over two sides of a 45 rpm record. It just wouldn’t fit on a single side.


Bob Dylan proved that wasn't the case with Like A Rolling Stone, didn't he?   Just saying...
Logged
Andrew G. Doe
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 17767


The triumph of The Hickey Script !


View Profile WWW
« Reply #120 on: January 19, 2011, 12:53:41 PM »

The article I was remembering was titled “Beach Boys’ New Single to Last Five Minutes” and I think it was from March '67. At least from before the single was switched to vegetables in April.

There's no external date, but the piece mentions the European tour starting on May 2nd. Now, granted it says "Beach Boys new single will probably last five minutes" (and yes, it is Taylor) but back in those days, when anyone said "single", they invariably meant the A side. Significantly, Taylor doesn't say the song takes up both sides of the single.

As for length, well, less than a year later "Hey Jude" clocked in at 7.11, and "MacArthur Park" before that was slightly longer. I think a five minute A side in mid-1967 was entirely feasible. "Ode to Billie Joe" in summer 1967 was 4.15 long.
Logged

The four sweetest words in my vocabulary: "This poster is ignored".
OneEar/OneEye
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 321


View Profile
« Reply #121 on: January 19, 2011, 01:22:30 PM »

and in 1965 Dylan had an A side that ran over 6 minutes.
Logged
Been Too Long
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 47


View Profile
« Reply #122 on: January 19, 2011, 03:52:28 PM »


Bob Dylan proved that wasn't the case with Like A Rolling Stone, didn't he?   Just saying...

Yeah, you're right. Bob Dylan did it first. That seems really impressive for 1965. I remember that the DJ’s had to flip the record to play the whole song on the radio but I guess there were two versions, the long version and the split version. I knew that 7 plus minutes was possible by 1968 but about 4 1/2 minutes seemed to be it for the mid sixties. I thought the Beatles were having a problem with needles skipping on singles in 1966 due to the grooves being too thin. Guess not.


There's no external date, but the piece mentions the European tour starting on May 2nd. Now, granted it says "Beach Boys new single will probably last five minutes" (and yes, it is Taylor) but back in those days, when anyone said "single", they invariably meant the A side. Significantly, Taylor doesn't say the song takes up both sides of the single.


You beat me to it. I found my copy of LLVS. “Beach Boys’ new disc lasts five minutes!” Looks like it’s from “Disc” magazine and by Derek Taylor, no date. It does say “disc” not single in the article title but it’s probably not worth debating the use of that word as opposed to single. The song just appears to have gone from 3 minutes on February 10th to 5 minutes by March or April. Also noticed that it states that the Smile album will have 12 tracks and even lists eight of them. That answers some of those questions!

I found a link to the expanded liner notes from the “Hawthorne” album here:

http://www.albumlinernotes.com/Hawthorne__CA.html

Great seeing this again but here is the important part:
“So Brian assembled a version of Heroes and Villains, re-recording several sections in a makeshift studio newly installed at his home, and using just a few segments from the original Smile sessions for the new single [(the verses, and the track for the chorus - logged as "Heroes and Villians Side Two" on the original tape box)].

The chorus section was originally intended to be part of a separate piece of music. The first piece of music would end, then you would pick up the record, flip it over and start the next piece of music; but they are both called “Heroes And Villains.”
The notes just say it was recorded February 1967 but I think I remember that it matched the session on February 27th.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2011, 03:57:47 PM by Been Too Long » Logged
buddhahat
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 2643


Hi, my name's Doug. Would you like to dance?


View Profile
« Reply #123 on: January 20, 2011, 04:37:59 AM »


‘I’m doing the final mix on the A-side tonight, but I can’t decide what to do on the other side.”
He then runs through some options (Pet Sounds tracks, piano solo, but not another Smile track) but doesn’t mention a 2 sided single as something he had thought about. Two weeks later he records the section called “Heroes and Villians Side Two.”

For several reasons that interview had to have taken place on February 10th, but before the 15th at very latest.


This is fascinating  - I didn't realise there was a quote from Brian directly referring to the Cantina mix. Thanks for that.

As far as the likelihood of a two sided Heroes and Villains goes, I know this has been debated before, but surely the fact that Tag to Part 1 is referred to as such, suggests that Heroes at that stage consisted of two sections - each with definite tags. That in itself, suggests to me that Brian was creating a Heroes A & B side at that point. The riposte to this in the past has been that sections of songs were often labelled as part 1, 2 etc e.g. "Fire: The Elements Part 1", but when something is called 'Tag to Part 1' that really suggests that Part 1 is a song in itself with its own ending, and not just a section, doesn't it? Throw 'Heroes Intro' into the mix (i.e. an intro for Heroes that was unlikley to be an intro to the A side) and that's extremely strong evidence for a two sided single imo.
Logged

Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes ......
Roger Ryan
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1528


View Profile
« Reply #124 on: January 20, 2011, 10:16:27 AM »

Yeah, you're right. Bob Dylan did it first. That seems really impressive for 1965. I remember that the DJ’s had to flip the record to play the whole song on the radio but I guess there were two versions, the long version and the split version. I knew that 7 plus minutes was possible by 1968 but about 4 1/2 minutes seemed to be it for the mid sixties. I thought the Beatles were having a problem with needles skipping on singles in 1966 due to the grooves being too thin. Guess not.

Was the Dylan single changed from being on two sides to one side by the 70s? I bought it around '76 and all of "Like A Rolling Stone" was on one side.

I think you're misremembering the Beatles situation. As I recall, McCartney (and the others) were frustrated that the bass frequency was always being reduced during mastering because Abbey Road engineers believed needles would skip if too much bass was present (regardless of the song's length). The Beatles forced the issue by arguing that American recordings contained more bass and the result was an increased bass presence for the "Paperback Writer" single and subsequent recordings.
Logged
gfx
Pages: 1 2 3 4 [5] 6 7 8 9 Go Up Print 
gfx
Jump to:  
gfx
Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines Page created in 1.482 seconds with 22 queries.
Helios Multi design by Bloc
gfx
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!