Dylan's Religious Phase

[Sir Rob]

Here's a question that I'm always wondering about.  Dylan got Jesus in 1979 (just, so it happened, as I had become interested in him.  This music and its rigid sentiments was not to my taste then and still isn't now.  Fortunately, at the time, there was lots of very wonderful other material for me to investigate) and I remember thinking "Well, that's it forever more!"  Let's face it, when most people get Jesus, they've got him for life - even someone of such a fickle and contrary nature as Bob Dylan, or so I thought!  But 2 or 3 albums later it was seemingly all over - just a phase like all the other phases in Dylan's career.  Or is it?  Is he still privately a believer in the hellfire and damnation stuff he was preaching on Slow Train Coming and Saved (yeah, that was the other thing that got me -it wasn't even nice cuddly religion, it was the real Jerry Falwell stuff, or so it has always seemed to me) but he realises it's not very good for shifting album units commercially?  Is he a 'Christian' still at all?  One thing that goes against this idea is that sometime in the mid 1980s he was photographed wearing a Jewish skullcap whilst attending the 'Bar Mitzvah' of one of his son's.  A Christian friend of mine says if he was the committed Christian he had previously appeared to be he wouldn't have been seen like this.  But I dunno.  Where do others think Bob is, religiously speaking (or otherwise) these days?

[Beckner]

A Christian friend of mine says if he was the committed Christian he had previously appeared to be he wouldn't have been seen like this.

And I am a Christian friend who asks, who determines these rules?

[Sir Rob]

A Christian friend of mine says if he was the committed Christian he had previously appeared to be he wouldn't have been seen like this.

And I am a Christian friend who asks, who determines these rules?

Jesus, I suppose - "I am the way, the truth and the life".  That's as far as my friend's concerned.  As for me - I did say "I dunno".

[Beckner]

No, Im talking about the idea that Dylan must not be a Christian bc he's wearing a particular hat. That doesn't add up to me. PLus, there is such a thing as "Jews for Jesus."

[zelilgirlI1cenu]

I'll be reading this thread with interest, since this is the last stuff I want to touch by Dylan, and religion bears very little interest to me. So do we know/does he say why he became a Christian?

[Evenreven]

No, Im talking about the idea that Dylan must not be a Christian bc he's wearing a particular hat. That doesn't add up to me. PLus, there is such a thing as "Jews for Jesus."

I've worn a Jewish cap when visiting a synagogue, and I'm not Jewish. I think I had to, if I remember correctly. Thus, Dylan would need to wear one if he wanted to go the bar mitzvah at all.

[Sir Rob]

I'll be reading this thread with interest, since this is the last stuff I want to touch by Dylan, and religion bears very little interest to me. So do we know/does he say why he became a Christian?

I seem to remember somewhere reading that Jesus walked up to him one night and said: "Why have you been resisting me?"

[zelilgirlI1cenu]

I'll be reading this thread with interest, since this is the last stuff I want to touch by Dylan, and religion bears very little interest to me. So do we know/does he say why he became a Christian?

I seem to remember somewhere reading that Jesus walked up to him one night and said: "Why have you been resisting me?"

and so it was that Bob Dylan did not resist anymore?

[Sir Rob]

No, Im talking about the idea that Dylan must not be a Christian bc he's wearing a particular hat. That doesn't add up to me. PLus, there is such a thing as "Jews for Jesus."

I've worn a Jewish cap when visiting a synagogue, and I'm not Jewish. I think I had to, if I remember correctly. Thus, Dylan would need to wear one if he wanted to go the bar mitzvah at all.

OK - I was just giving the view of one person who happens to be a very committed Christian.  I hope people will have more interest in this subject than this one detail of my post!  

[Sir Rob]

I'll be reading this thread with interest, since this is the last stuff I want to touch by Dylan, and religion bears very little interest to me. So do we know/does he say why he became a Christian?

I seem to remember somewhere reading that Jesus walked up to him one night and said: "Why have you been resisting me?"

and so it was that Bob Dylan did not resist anymore?

Well, apparently so. 

[zelilgirlI1cenu]

So what are his Christian albums like?
Unlistenable to??
Because?

The words are awful??

The music is awful???

[Sir Rob]

Slow Train Coming isn't bad from a musical point of view but the uncompromising "you've either got faith or you've got disbelief and there ain't no middle ground" message is just too much for my taste or sensibility.  It's straight 'born again' propaganda from an artist who had previously used religious imagery in his songs but in a much less unambiguous fashion.  Plus you have to remember this all came out in the context of the right wing resurgence, the election of Ronald Reagan etc.  It all had very bad connotations both for me and a lot of people who at that point made up his fan base.  My brother-in-law threw his copy of STC away!  (Bobby has certainly known how to p!ss off his fans!)  It also began a period of relatively crap albums IMO, religious or otherwise.  Whereas his album immediately before STC, Street Legal (the first Dylan album I ever properly listened to) is wonderful, one of the most under-rated of his career.  Mind you the last (fantastic) track on SL does begin - "There's a long distance train, crawling thru the rain..."   

[Jason]

I'm not a big fan of Dylan's Christian material. Saved (next to the Dylan album) is probably the worst album to bear Zimmie's name.

[Evenreven]

No, Im talking about the idea that Dylan must not be a Christian bc he's wearing a particular hat. That doesn't add up to me. PLus, there is such a thing as "Jews for Jesus."

I've worn a Jewish cap when visiting a synagogue, and I'm not Jewish. I think I had to, if I remember correctly. Thus, Dylan would need to wear one if he wanted to go the bar mitzvah at all.

OK - I was just giving the view of one person who happens to be a very committed Christian.  I hope people will have more interest in this subject than this one detail of my post! 

Sure, man. I was just sharing my (minimal) expertise.

I agree that STC isn't bad from a musical standpoint. "Gotta Serve Somebody" rocks hard, no question. I find the lyrics rather interesting too.
"It may be the devil, it may be the lord, but you gotta serve somebody"
This deals with our need for something/someone to serve, rather than preaching Christianity, at least that's how it sounds to me.

[Sir Rob]

No, Im talking about the idea that Dylan must not be a Christian bc he's wearing a particular hat. That doesn't add up to me. PLus, there is such a thing as "Jews for Jesus."

I've worn a Jewish cap when visiting a synagogue, and I'm not Jewish. I think I had to, if I remember correctly. Thus, Dylan would need to wear one if he wanted to go the bar mitzvah at all.

OK - I was just giving the view of one person who happens to be a very committed Christian.  I hope people will have more interest in this subject than this one detail of my post! 

Sure, man. I was just sharing my (minimal) expertise.

I agree that STC isn't bad from a musical standpoint. "Gotta Serve Somebody" rocks hard, no question. I find the lyrics rather interesting too.
"It may be the devil, it may be the lord, but you gotta serve somebody"
This deals with our need for something/someone to serve, rather than preaching Christianity, at least that's how it sounds to me.

On the contrary, I think Gotta Serve Somebody means if you ain't serving Jesus you're serving the devil.  "There ain't no middle ground" so to speak!

If only Dylan could have become a 'Christian' like William Blake:
 
I went to the Garden of Love,
And saw what I never had seen:
A Chapel was built in the midst,
Where I used to play on the green.

And the gates of this Chapel were shut,
And "Thou shalt not" writ over the door;
So I turned to the Garden of Love,
That so many sweet flowers bore;

And I saw it was filled with graves,
And tombstones where flowers should be;
And Priests in black gowns were walking their rounds,
And binding with briers my joys and desires.

Mind you, by the time of the fantastic 'Every Grain Of Sand' (my favourite religious Dylan song) maybe he had.

Also from this early-mid 80s time and another reason why I'm wondering whether Dylan moved away from right wing Christianity to right wing Judaism was his association with Rabbi Kahane who wanted all Palestinians expelled from Israeli occupied territory.  Then, of course, there came 'Neighbourhood Bully' a pretty obvious pro-Israel allegory.  I also remember rumours of Dylan having some investments in the Israeli military. 

[Jeff Mason]

Evangelical Christians are HUGE supporters of Israel, so that really means nothing.

I too, would love to know what happened to Dylan's faith after 1981, as to whether it was a passing phase or something he just realized needed to be toned down some.  He certainly hasn't said or done anything against Christian morality since then that I know of so maybe he just went quiet?

Speaking from those who favor this sort of music, let me just say that this is not propoganda in the slightest.  First off, all of his prouncements are from the Scripture.  If you are familiar with the religious right and Reagan, you could appreciate that this is not always true.  Secondly, it is very literate.  If you have much knowledge of most CCM music, this rings out loud and clear (in other words, you think that Dylan is bad....).  Finally, for those of us who believe, Dylan made two albums of faith that minister to our souls.  I am so thankful that Slow Train Coming and Saved exist (to be honest, I haven't heard Shot of Love yet).  So often I listen to my favorite music in spite of what it preaches/teaches/models.  It is refreshing and rare for a musical hero to not only not require a lyrical filter for me but also actually raise me up inside.

There will soon be a Dylan album review thread on the Smile Shop.  I have agreed to write the reviews for STC/Saved from a "unbelievers' guide to Christian Dylan", to show where the references to the Scripture come from and what he is saying and how a believer takes it.  By now everyone knows what unbelieving critics have to say.

[Sir Rob]

First off, all of his prouncements are from the Scripture. 

Well, this seems to be a tendency of all religious fundamentalists  - scriptural literalism.  It's a standpoint that not all people who call themselves 'Christian' take.  Then, of course, there's the whole social and political mileau that Dylan released this stuff into.

All evengelical Christians are 'HUGE' supporters of Israel?  That's a sweeping generalisation that even I'm not prepared to make.  But for those that are - it seems to fit the rest of the right wing Republican agenda.  Anyway - I'd sooner we got back to talking about Dylan and religion rather than letting this just slip into a row about religion and politics.

[Jeff Mason]

That political picture is radically different today, and Dylan never dabbled in politics.

There is a world of diff from Scriptural literalism and what the religious right believe.  I believe in the inspiration and infallibility of the Scripture and I think that the goals of the modern religious right are extra-biblical at best and heresy at worst.  The Bible calls us to use the church as the primary mechanism to produce spiritual change (which it says is what is fundamental), not political operations.  I have left a church before because it aligned itself with a political candidate and certain political positions that I didn't think were required biblical stands.

If you choose to see Dylan through that filter, I can't stop you.  But believe me, to say that you must serve someone spiritually is light years away from demanding that Christians boycott Disney, for example (a position of the Southern Baptist convention, for instance -- and I know, I used to be one).  Dylan focuses exclusively on the spiritual side of life with lyrics that stick to true Scriptural positions.

BTW -- I never said ALL evangelicals are Israel supporters.  But spend some time in that environment and you will find that most of them do favor our support of Israel (because of the prophecies involving the temple and the conversion of the Jews, if you favor the Hal Lindsey approach to prophecy).  I could easily see Dylan, who would be pro-Jew to begin with taking that one up.

As for sticking with Dylan, I am all for that.  I just am trying to communicate that you aren't compelled to use other Christian groups as your foundation for interpretation.

[Jeff Mason]

One sneak preview of that commentary -- Gotta Serve Somebody -- the alternative to serving Jesus according to the Scripture is NOT Satan.  It is the sin nature.  According to the Scripture, and this is basically Romans 6-8 for those who want to check up on what I am saying, humans in their basic capacity without Jesus in their life are not free to do selfless acts.  Acts done from a self-centered selfish motivation are defined as "sinful".  It's not just what you do, though that is critical too.  It is the motive behind the action.  Do you do good to get people to applaud you?  You really aren't doing good, according to the Scriptures.  Humans without Christ are not free to break from that motivation; all of their acts are at some level self-motivated.  Becoming a Christian breaks one free from that slavery of motivation; Christians become free from that and "slaves of righteousness", in other words, with the ability to do the selfless acts that God requires (and also still able this side of heaven to sin by selfish acts -- it truly is a choice for a believer).  THIS is what Dylan is getting at -- your actions will either be focused on God and His kingdom or yourself.  You have to serve one of them.  Now it so happens that your selfish acts are what the Devil would want you to do, so one could say that being a "slave of sin" makes the Devil happy.  But it would not be true to say that you are a puppet of the Devil.  This is a misinterpretation of Scripture and of Dylan.

[Chance]

I've always liked "Shot Of Love." It's a great sounding album, well produced and vibrant, whereas, from what I remember (haven't heard it since high school) "Slow Train Coming" was kind of monochromatic and subdued. I haven't heard "Saved," the cover scared me off at the time.

While everyone was surprised at the direction he'd taken, it was around this time that Dylan was really putting on some remarkable shows. I've been meaning to share these clips on the board for awhile, now that this topic has popped up, I've got the perfect opportunity. I really enjoy these, I point to these performances when someone tries to say that the Christian period was a crap phase in Bob's career. (Not that anybody has said that here.) The first two songs were never released on any of Dylan's albums as far as I know, so if you like what he was doing at this time, definately grab 'em. They come from an April 1980 show in Toronto, I love the soulful backing singers on these. The last tune comes from a November '80 show in San Francisco and features Michael Bloomfield on guitar.

Ain't Gonna Go To Hell
http://s52.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=3NW0QEOE9TUHW2QY75DALY4T4V

Coverdown, Breakthrough
http://s52.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=07GQD9HQPNBAB2WU8WULVKEU3D

The Groom's Still Waiting At The Alter
http://s52.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=15JZ96D23A3HC0NUUBCP8S3TA0

[al]

I'd always avoided this phase of Dylan's career too. Bought Slow Train Coming just after I got an SACD player as it was one of the few surround sound albums released, and I have to say it s really pretty good. Due to the fact that we are 20-odd years after the event, the 'conversion' is not as threatening as it seemed then, and I can pretty much put to one side any of the religiosity and just take it as a piece of music. I like it a lot actually. Saved is a fair bit naffer but I haven't listened to it a whole lot. Still haven't got Shot Of Love other than on a cassette I taped from the library years ago and I never really listen to tapes, but as someone said above, there are at least two really good songs on it - Heart of Mine and Every Grain Of Sand. I'll get around to it one day (about the same time I get hold of Dylan and the Dead....)

[Chance]

You should add "Groom's Still Waiting At The Alter" along with "Every Grain Of Sand" and "Heart Of Mine" as far as highlights on the album. I don't know if your tape has this, as it originally wasn't on the album, it was just a b-side, but it eventually got appended onto the lineup because it was so popular. Guess they thought it would spur album sales. It's a great track.

[Sir Rob]

I'd always avoided this phase of Dylan's career too. Bought Slow Train Coming just after I got an SACD player as it was one of the few surround sound albums released, and I have to say it s really pretty good. Due to the fact that we are 20-odd years after the event, the 'conversion' is not as threatening as it seemed then, and I can pretty much put to one side any of the religiosity and just take it as a piece of music. I like it a lot actually. Saved is a fair bit naffer but I haven't listened to it a whole lot. Still haven't got Shot Of Love other than on a cassette I taped from the library years ago and I never really listen to tapes, but as someone said above, there are at least two really good songs on it - Heart of Mine and Every Grain Of Sand. I'll get around to it one day (about the same time I get hold of Dylan and the Dead....)

Every Grain Of Sand is beautiful.  Religiosity like that I can take because it's appeals primarily on the level of the poetic.  It doesn't lambast the listener with a declamatory sermon for which he or she may not have any sympathy at all (well, I don't!).