Is it time to reappraise 15 Big Ones?

[Myk Luhv]

Love You is awesome.

[Jon Stebbins]

Love You is awesome.

Love You IS awesome...I agree. BUT as the follow up to 15BO it did more damage to the BB's reputation than good. It was like this... 15BO seemed juvenile and cheesy...they needed to follow that with something mature, meaty and substantial...but Love You is quirky and twisted...and juvenile. Yes in a good way, but no one really knew that until the '80's. So following 15BO with Love You was like breaking your arm by doing something foolish and then trying to heal it by being a clown at the circus.

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

Anybody else have an opinion on my alternate 15 BO?

[bgas]

the only reason 15BO seems better decades down the line is because of the weak BB's releases that came in its wake.

I disagree. First, I'm not a big fan of Holland. "Steamboat" has some cool ideas, but it plods. I got tired of the "California Saga" after a few listens. "Californ-i-a", in particular, is just stale countrified remix of "California Girls". And don't get me started on The Flame's song. Some of the other songs are strong, but it's not a great album. The production is more impressive than most of the actual songs, although I think that the production on "Sail on Sailor" was botched somewhat.

I also consider Carl & The Passions to be average. Again, I hate The Flame, and Dennis' songs drench too much syrup on my pancakes. That's half of the album right there. The rest ranks from OK to great. Surf's Up was a stronger release, but "Lookin' at Tomorrow (A Welfare Song)"  and "Student Demonstration Time" were the beginning of the end for me.

I think 15 Big Ones definitely ranks up there with Holland and Carl & The Passions. The strength of Brian and Carl's material on Surf's Up  is the only reason I'd rank it ahead of 15 Big Ones, and I'd say the Sunflower is about the same as Surf's Up.  Sunflower has a little too much Dennis and Bruce for my liking. I liked some of Dennis' songs on Sunflower, but I personally don't think he became a consistently great songwriter until the mid-70s.

Ummm... 'in the wake' means following, not preceding.

You wanna play semantics here? Because it cannot be found in the dictionary, the word "Ummm" does not exist. Neither does "koff".

well gee, I hate to disagree( not really) but according to the "urban dictionary"  www.urbandictionary.com (Always using definition #1):
"ummm" : >> it means shut up im thinking and i probably wont have a very good answer<<
 "koff":  >>'Koff is short for f*** Off. The origin of the word comes from an immature attempt at censorship. Some feel that removing the first three letters, emulating an FCC strategy to essentially chop the word down to something almost unrecognizable, detracts from the vulgarity of the word. <<

I, of course, can't attest that these are the usages to which AGD alludes, only that they ARE in the dictionary. 
I hope this clears that up.

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

For a moment I was wondering why Andrew was quoting his own posts, then I realize you jacked his profile pic.

[Myk Luhv]

Love You is awesome.

Love You IS awesome...I agree. BUT as the follow up to 15BO it did more damage to the BB's reputation than good. It was like this... 15BO seemed juvenile and cheesy...they needed to follow that with something mature, meaty and substantial...but Love You is quirky and twisted...and juvenile. Yes in a good way, but no one really knew that until the '80's. So following 15BO with Love You was like breaking your arm by doing something foolish and then trying to heal it by being a clown at the circus.

Oh yeah, I know what you meant and I agree completely. I just sometimes impulsively sail in to defend Love You just in case anyone was actually thinking it's not a good album. I think it's pretty hard to deny, however, that it is not also an album which is in almost every way a perfect compliment to Smley Smile. I would say the former album is at least as contentious as the latter. Both were complete upheavals in the musical world of The Beach Boys -- perhaps not quite revolutions in sound for them, but serious shake-ups compared to everything that came both before and after (Love You and Smiley Smile seem to me to be one-off instances of particular quirks of Brian's musical style). Lyrically though it is much the same subject matter -- girls, romance, sex, women, love, self-doubt, sundry sorts of melancholia from those and other things -- I think the lyrics on each album are particularly simple (in a 'universal sentiment' kind of way, not daft) and effective at their tasks. "The Night Was So Young" may not be as poetic as "The Surfer Moon" and "Gettin' Hungry" may not be as poetic as "Farmer's Daughter" [perhaps 'poetic' is the wrong word...] but it's not as if there is no precedent for such endearingly awkward directness or poetic lyrics are inherent superior comparatively. [Personally, I find more direct, conversational lyrics far more interesting and difficult to write -- almost anyone can find a way to squeeze out a image- or metaphor-laden lyric, even if they're clumsy and bad.]

I don't know if any of that made sense, I'm tired and am not so very interested in writing papers currently -- so you get that above mess instead!

[adamghost]

Alan Boyd has repeatedly made the argument, to me and others, that 15BO was sabotaged in the mix and that it's a much better album in raw form than people think.  I was skeptical but he played me a different mix of "Had To Phone Ya" that really was breathtaking, I have to admit.

In the late '70s Brian really was pioneering a sound that didn't really make sense to anyone until about four years later, when bands like the Human League and Ultravox came to the fore.  He really was ahead of his time again, but in the context of '76-'77, those grainy synth textures really were jarring.  Most of the people that were doing that kind of all-keyboard thing had much less aggressive sonic landscape at that time (thinking Gary Wright, Stevie Wonder, Todd Rundgren, etc.).

AAAARGH! I love/hate it when you guys with the inside connection do this to me!

How can I hear the remix of 15BO? In my dreams?

Why was it sabotaged? because it was pretty crap compared to what they could have achieved? Who sabotaged it? Brian?


I agree with you that brian was ahead of his time with those synths. Even now LY still sounds like nothing else, really.

Well, in this case, just listen to the track with headphones and if you have a good enough imagination, you can kind of hear what Alan's talking about and how the other mix sounded.  Everything just kinds of lays there, but listen to the chords, the string progressions, and imagine those brought out in the mix more.

Um, to answer your question about sabotage, that may have been too strong a word.  But keep in mind not everybody that gets the job is the best person for that particular job, and mixers and producers and everyone else have their own opinions about how things should sound.  If that person doesn't have an affinity for what they're working with (and perhaps they're in a difficult working environment that colors their perceptions), then you may get something that isn't as good as it could be...even though there's no conscious intent to do a bad job.  I'm a pretty good sound mixer for example, but if I mixed a Pantera record, I would probably do a pretty craptastic job, because I don't like metal and I don't have a real affinity for it.

[Dunderhead]

After listening to this a bunch and reading this thread, i have to say 15 Big Ones is much better than I remember. In The Still of the Night is like a glam rock song or something, it sounds like T.Rex. That Same Song is great for the vocal alone, you can tell Brian was really enthusiastic about the message and it works because of it. JOIML is very nice, just as good as everyone has been saying.
I think the oldies mostly work, but the album could have used a better song selection. I think a whole album of Brian Wilson recorded oldies would have been excellent and the sound he shows off here should have been embraced, it could have been a classic but the band just couldn't come together long enough to make something happen. Friends was really the last album the band did that was really stylistically and conceptually cohesive, since 20/20 the individual band members were all kind of doing their own things and the albums became a grab bag of different ideas. It worked on Sunflower, but only because every song there is so great, but by this time you can sense that the arrangement was really suffocating everyone's creativity. There are some gems here, but it's a far cry from the band's best.

[Mr. Cohen]

After listening to this a bunch and reading this thread, i have to say 15 Big Ones is much better than I remember.

Welcome to the Dark Side. The cocaine, hamburgers, milkshakes, porno mags, and piano are in the other room.

[Dunderhead]

the longer you like the beach boys the more you'll like even the worst things they recorded. It's just a matter of understanding, learning about each period, getting used to the songs. At the end of the day everything they did was great.

[Musketeer]

Anybody else have an opinion on my alternate 15 BO?

I think you made some good choices Billy.
I  think they should have stuck to the original plan of an all oldies album with maybe It's OK as a closer and then an album of new material.

My "new" album: River Song, Good Timin', That Same Song (w/gospel choir) Had To Phone Ya, Back Home, Everyone's In Love With You, Susie Cincinnati, Shortenin' Bread, Pacific Ocean Blues, Goodtime, San Miguel, Angel Come Home, California Feelin'

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

the longer you like the beach boys the more you'll like even the worst things they recorded. It's just a matter of understanding, learning about each period, getting used to the songs. At the end of the day everything they did was great.

Preach it, brother 

[Mr. Cohen]

the longer you like the beach boys the more you'll like even the worst things they recorded. It's just a matter of understanding, learning about each period, getting used to the songs. At the end of the day everything they did was great.

Right. Eventually, you graduate to a level where you enjoy Beach Boys '85 more than Pet Sounds. And you wonder why Brian lost his mind for awhile?

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

That might be stretching it a bit, but I can certainly list my top 2 Beach Boys songs as "Getcha Back" and "Goin On" without even a shred of shame.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

That might be stretching it a bit, but I can certainly list my top 2 Beach Boys songs as "Getcha Back" and "Goin On" without even a shred of shame.

[Wirestone]

Ah, 15 Big Ones. Such a great topic. Such an interesting period in the band history. So many things intersect here -- Landy, Mike, Carl, Brian, Dennis -- and so many consequences spiral out of the decisions made during this time.

I think the key to understanding the album -- and the disagreements around it -- is narrative. The Beach Boys have always been prey to it. They as a band told stories, and their fans tell stories. And the stories we tell about the band ultimately have more power than the band or the individuals inside it -- think of how the notion of the band's resident "genius" has warped (and sometimes enriched) Brian's life. Think of how his supposed villainy has affected Mike.

The story of Smile and Brian's genius flying the coop -- and then returning (or not) is the most powerful string of stories that fans tell. But there's another narrative too, and that's the one that has been published by Stebbins and others lately -- that of a band of several talented guys, including (in Dennis) someone who equaled Brian in his own ramshackle way. This story has the benefit of probably being closer to the truth -- or, in these divided times, of seeming more evenhanded.

Each camp has different touchstones. For the Brian camp, Smile is all, followed by Love You and a solo project or two (selections vary, although BW88, TLOS or BWRG are currently favored). For the band fans, Sunflower and Holland and Pacific Ocean Blue (with a stray solo Carl track or two) tell their story.

15 Big Ones hits at a point that's important and divisive for each group. For it is, undeniably, the place where the Beach Boys give up any hope of being a progressive, a modern, or at least a non-embarrassing band.

For those fans of Dennis and Carl, it shows them essentially giving up on the group. For fans of Brian, however, it's a place where a rejuvenation begins. You can hear innovative ideas beginning to percolate. You can hear some unusual original tunes beginning to emerge. It's tentative, and the mix seems intent on making the band sound like cardboard. But it's an album that undoubtedly lays ground for Love You. And for Brian fans, that's almost enough to forgive it any lapses.

Interestingly, I think that each group, each story, has some real truth here. 15BO is in many ways a crude, slapdash effort that shows a band in full artistic retreat. But for Brian, it was the first step toward seizing -- for all of a year or two -- real creative control of a band that was, originally, his baby. No wonder he thinks of it as a favorite album -- the guys were listening to him and depending on him again. And he was soon writing songs again. Weird songs, but interesting ones (he surely knew that LY had some kickass tunes on it).

Does this make the album good, exactly? Not really. There's too much on it that sounds tired and rote. But there are quirky, pleasing moments too.

This is definitely an album where an expanded edition would make a tremendous difference. One disc could contain all of Brian's oldies work (well, with some bad ones excised), with some remixes and stacks-of-tracks. The other disc could contain what the band had been working on, some of the Caribou sessions. etc. Such a release would be easy to assemble, and it would show how fertile and interesting the time surrounding 15BO was -- while still respecting the rest of the band.

[filledeplage]

the longer you like the beach boys the more you'll like even the worst things they recorded. It's just a matter of understanding, learning about each period, getting used to the songs. At the end of the day everything they did was great.

Preach it, brother 

What you two said!   It is knowing the "time frames..."

Rock and Roll Music is a home run that they still use in concert....true test of time...That Same Song is awesome on Youtube...and maybe a "retro feel." Its OK is a nice one as well...a Brian-Mike offering...

And, I like 85 and had it on today in the car...it is sort of a "skip around" to favorites...even though "taken as a whole" it is a good listen...Carl's vocals are amazing on this one...

Pet Sounds is great, but, I don't to listen to it every day...it is so "intense" - not "rock out" or "zone out" music...The Pet Sounds Sessions are of greater interest to me...It is less intense in a way because you hear the studio banter...

I recently rediscovered MIU, the good ones are magnificent the great sound just fills your car.  Even Hey Little Tomboy is neat in the sense that it is like one of the early 60's (very early- David Marks era) simplicity and rock style but with the sophistication and style that they learned on the "voyage"...I regard it as a "growth song."

It is nice to listen to an opinion of a professional critic, whose taste is ultimately subjective and bias ridden; but aren't we the best critics of what we like an enjoy?  Do we need someone to tell us what we like is trite, bland or poor work?  I don't think so...

 

[Dunderhead]

Ah, 15 Big Ones. Such a great topic. Such an interesting period in the band history. So many things intersect here -- Landy, Mike, Carl, Brian, Dennis -- and so many consequences spiral out of the decisions made during this time.

I think the key to understanding the album -- and the disagreements around it -- is narrative. The Beach Boys have always been prey to it. They as a band told stories, and their fans tell stories. And the stories we tell about the band ultimately have more power than the band or the individuals inside it -- think of how the notion of the band's resident "genius" has warped (and sometimes enriched) Brian's life. Think of how his supposed villainy has affected Mike.

The story of Smile and Brian's genius flying the coop -- and then returning (or not) is the most powerful string of stories that fans tell. But there's another narrative too, and that's the one that has been published by Stebbins and others lately -- that of a band of several talented guys, including (in Dennis) someone who equaled Brian in his own ramshackle way. This story has the benefit of probably being closer to the truth -- or, in these divided times, of seeming more evenhanded.

Each camp has different touchstones. For the Brian camp, Smile is all, followed by Love You and a solo project or two (selections vary, although BW88, TLOS or BWRG are currently favored). For the band fans, Sunflower and Holland and Pacific Ocean Blue (with a stray solo Carl track or two) tell their story.

15 Big Ones hits at a point that's important and divisive for each group. For it is, undeniably, the place where the Beach Boys give up any hope of being a progressive, a modern, or at least a non-embarrassing band.

For those fans of Dennis and Carl, it shows them essentially giving up on the group. For fans of Brian, however, it's a place where a rejuvenation begins. You can hear innovative ideas beginning to percolate. You can hear some unusual original tunes beginning to emerge. It's tentative, and the mix seems intent on making the band sound like cardboard. But it's an album that undoubtedly lays ground for Love You. And for Brian fans, that's almost enough to forgive it any lapses.

Interestingly, I think that each group, each story, has some real truth here. 15BO is in many ways a crude, slapdash effort that shows a band in full artistic retreat. But for Brian, it was the first step toward seizing -- for all of a year or two -- real creative control of a band that was, originally, his baby. No wonder he thinks of it as a favorite album -- the guys were listening to him and depending on him again. And he was soon writing songs again. Weird songs, but interesting ones (he surely knew that LY had some kickass tunes on it).

Does this make the album good, exactly? Not really. There's too much on it that sounds tired and rote. But there are quirky, pleasing moments too.

This is definitely an album where an expanded edition would make a tremendous difference. One disc could contain all of Brian's oldies work (well, with some bad ones excised), with some remixes and stacks-of-tracks. The other disc could contain what the band had been working on, some of the Caribou sessions. etc. Such a release would be easy to assemble, and it would show how fertile and interesting the time surrounding 15BO was -- while still respecting the rest of the band.

Great post. The amount of quality material the band produced over the years is staggering. I think Brian put it best when he said "We started out as little babies and we grew up into men," sums up the band perfectly. So many other acts would have split much earlier, but I like to think that their love for eachother kept them going on. In their 50 years together each of them has had a time to shine, and each of them brought a lot to the table.

[Ed Roach]

Ah, 15 Big Ones. Such a great topic. Such an interesting period in the band history. So many things intersect here -- Landy, Mike, Carl, Brian, Dennis -- and so many consequences spiral out of the decisions made during this time.

I think the key to understanding the album -- and the disagreements around it -- is narrative. The Beach Boys have always been prey to it. They as a band told stories, and their fans tell stories. And the stories we tell about the band ultimately have more power than the band or the individuals inside it -- think of how the notion of the band's resident "genius" has warped (and sometimes enriched) Brian's life. Think of how his supposed villainy has affected Mike.

The story of Smile and Brian's genius flying the coop -- and then returning (or not) is the most powerful string of stories that fans tell. But there's another narrative too, and that's the one that has been published by Stebbins and others lately -- that of a band of several talented guys, including (in Dennis) someone who equaled Brian in his own ramshackle way. This story has the benefit of probably being closer to the truth -- or, in these divided times, of seeming more evenhanded.

Each camp has different touchstones. For the Brian camp, Smile is all, followed by Love You and a solo project or two (selections vary, although BW88, TLOS or BWRG are currently favored). For the band fans, Sunflower and Holland and Pacific Ocean Blue (with a stray solo Carl track or two) tell their story.

15 Big Ones hits at a point that's important and divisive for each group. For it is, undeniably, the place where the Beach Boys give up any hope of being a progressive, a modern, or at least a non-embarrassing band.

For those fans of Dennis and Carl, it shows them essentially giving up on the group. For fans of Brian, however, it's a place where a rejuvenation begins. You can hear innovative ideas beginning to percolate. You can hear some unusual original tunes beginning to emerge. It's tentative, and the mix seems intent on making the band sound like cardboard. But it's an album that undoubtedly lays ground for Love You. And for Brian fans, that's almost enough to forgive it any lapses.

Interestingly, I think that each group, each story, has some real truth here. 15BO is in many ways a crude, slapdash effort that shows a band in full artistic retreat. But for Brian, it was the first step toward seizing -- for all of a year or two -- real creative control of a band that was, originally, his baby. No wonder he thinks of it as a favorite album -- the guys were listening to him and depending on him again. And he was soon writing songs again. Weird songs, but interesting ones (he surely knew that LY had some kickass tunes on it).

OK, gotta' admit to just browsing on this thread, but it's the comment about 'Dennis & Carl ... essentially giving up on the group' that is getting a response out of me... 
Maybe that was true with what 15 Big Ones became, but that's not the way Dennis & Carl started out.  Believe me, they had high hopes that what Brian was doing was just a 'warm-up', and that he was gearing up to doing some amazing work again.  And there was a sense of that in the beginning, with the tracks Brian was cutting with the likes of Steve Douglas.  Dennis & Carl didn't really lose faith until even the 'oldies' tracks that had had balls were drained of any life at all in the released versions...

[punkinhead]

All I have to say is I'm glad Mike didn't keep up with the 'formula'.
With the fact that 15 Big Ones did well on the charts, you'd think Mike would want something of that nature instead of Brian writing/producing something on his own.
From what I can tell, if Mike wanted to 'stick to the formula' of having another '15 Big Ones,' I'm surprised Mike didn't try another oldies album mixed with mediocre material.
I guess you could come up with a fan mix/tracklist of: 15 Bigger Ones.

[Mr. Cohen]

If you think about it, Punkinhead, that's what M.I.U. was.

[Glenn Greenberg]

Dennis & Carl didn't really lose faith until even the 'oldies' tracks that had had balls were drained of any life at all in the released versions...

What was the reason for this? Why did the released versions turn out that way?  And why were Dennis and Carl powerless to prevent it from happening?

Enquiring minds want to know! 

[Loaf]

For those fans of Dennis and Carl, it shows them essentially giving up on the group.

This is definitely an album where an expanded edition would make a tremendous difference. One disc could contain all of Brian's oldies work (well, with some bad ones excised), with some remixes and stacks-of-tracks. The other disc could contain what the band had been working on, some of the Caribou sessions. etc. Such a release would be easy to assemble, and it would show how fertile and interesting the time surrounding 15BO was -- while still respecting the rest of the band.

Brian, Dennis and Carl are all over the musician credits, so it seems as if it was a Wilson-brother led effort as far as laying down the tracks goes. Rallying round to help Brian get back in the game. It seems like they're on LY to a large extent as well. It's with MIU that it seems they gave up on the group. Giving the Mike n' Al faction greater control.

I love the idea of a remixed expanded 73-76 box set. Everything post-Holland up until the LY demos. All the Caribou stuff, all the Lucy Joneses that we read about buy have never heard, etc... I'd buy it.

[punkinhead]

If you think about it, Punkinhead, that's what M.I.U. was.

Yeah, I reckon so.
To be honest, I actually like the production of MIU of 15 Big Ones, except the covers...for some reason, I dont enjoy Come Go with Me on MIU, I prefer (like many do) the earlier version...I think Brian cut that one.

[Andrew G. Doe]

If you think about it, Punkinhead, that's what M.I.U. was.

Yeah, I reckon so.
To be honest, I actually like the production of MIU of 15 Big Ones, except the covers...for some reason, I dont enjoy Come Go with Me on MIU, I prefer (like many do) the earlier version...I think Brian cut that one.

Nope - Alan cut it solo one night when the band had hired a mobile to turn up at Brian's place, and he was the only one to show.