Smiley Smile

[the captain]

Listening to the released version is akin to sticking your head in a bucket of glue while listening.

Maybe that would make listeners appreciate it properly...

 

[brother john]

Listening to the released version is akin to sticking your head in a bucket of glue while listening.

Maybe that would make listeners appreciate it properly...

 

I'd just like to say Listen again, before going on to say that sticking your head in a big bucket of weed might also be a potential enhancener for the uninitiated listener...

[I. Spaceman]

The image of BB's have been ruined time and time again, by the various incarnations they have appeared in, so I doubt if that's the  problem that some people could have with "Smiley Smile", at least if they know the entire output of the group.

Right, but people here constantly complain about their particular image of the group being ruined.  It's a huge issue, not just a given.  Some people have a problem with the Mike Love Beach Boys, and think he's ruined the group's image as intelligent songwriters.  Others seem to hate Smiley Smile for forcing them to really analyze what sounds like "half-assed" noise instead of just drooling over the same, easy, old bits over and over again ("That tag from 'Fun Fun Fun,' far out!").  If Brian was trying to compete with the best of the 60s, he succeeded with Smiley Smile so much that it hurt.  It makes the Smile fans look traditional, and I think that's the problem people have with Smiley Smile.  A lot of fans like to gush about Brian's perfectionism and the layers of hidden complexity in his best known songs.  I think they resent him for putting out an album that is as beautiful as anything he wrote earlier but sounds, superficially, like amateur work.  It fodas with the Brian Wilson image too much by showing him as a creative guy willing to put one over on his fans to see why they really liked him in the first place.

How about the fans that just think the album sucks? The same fans who like Pet Sounds and Wild Honey, but don't like the crap inbetween the two?

Yep, those are exactly the type of morons Chris is talking about.

[Chris D.]

How about the fans that just think the album sucks? The same fans who like Pet Sounds and Wild Honey, but don't like the crap inbetween the two?

You can never "just" like or dislike something.  There are always reasons, whether you try to figure them out or not.  If you have serious emotional problems you go to a psychologist to figure them out, right?  So why not try to understand why you react a certain way to this album?  I think if fans just want to be lazy and say the album just sucks, they don't deserve to listen to any music.   That's the same mentality that killed Smile, the album that is the reason for this site existing in the first place.  And that's something I'll never get about a lot of Beach Boys fans.  Somehow many Smile fans are able to praise Brian's "weird" lost music while totally trashing the amazing, "weird" stuff he actually finished ("Smiley Smile," "Love You").  That kind of mentality makes the Beach Boys looking outdated and boring to non-fans more than Mike Love ever could.

As for a remix, I don't begrudge people wanting to hear the music differently, but I think the album's non-dynamic sound is part of the whole concept.  Marilyn said Brian's reaction to the Beach Boys' dismissal of Smile was something like "You think you can do it better, go ahead assholes," and Smiley Smile was his way of saying it -- not just to the band but also to the fans.  It's like Brian is saying, "You think I'm cracking emotionally and out-of-control?  Here's out-of-control for you."  The music just wouldn't be right conceptually if it was exciting in the same way as "Surfin' Safari" or "Little Honda" or any of those earlier songs.  I don't think any 60s band would have had the guts to put out something so counter to their image as this is.  At least not any major chart acts.  Coming after Pet Sounds and Smile it makes you wonder why people were upset that Dylan went electric.

[the captain]

I think if fans just want to be lazy and say the album just sucks, they don't deserve to listen to any music.

I'm not sure if I could disagree with any statement about music more than I do that one.

[the captain]

Although it would fit in quite well on a Cecil Taylor message board.

[I. Spaceman]

He's totally right, of course.

[the captain]

Which of us is right?

[I. Spaceman]

Chris D.

[the captain]

Well, damnit, now I need to disagree with both of you.  It is the most pretentious of sentiments for an artist to expect that an audience "do homework" for his or her art's sake. If an audience wants to study it, fine. But to expect it? Where do you get off?

[I. Spaceman]

That's not what he said, at all.

[the captain]

I think if fans just want to be lazy and say the album just sucks, they don't deserve to listen to any music.

To insist that a fan who has a negative reaction toward music take the time to reason him- or herself through it and explain on some detailed level why that may be seems awfully pretentious of an artist. If someone likes it and doesn't know why, fine. If someone hates it and doesn't know why, fine. No analysis is required.

[I. Spaceman]

No, if someone is dealing with music negatively or positively on a purely reactionary level, then pretending it's analysis, that's the problem.
If Joe Blow heras it and goes "It's weird, huh-huh, it sucks!" that's one thing. But on a review thread where we are here for the express purpose of studied analysis, it damn well is the time to analyse closely what someone's real reasons are for liking or disliking.

[HighOnLife]

How about the fans that just think the album sucks? The same fans who like Pet Sounds and Wild Honey, but don't like the crap inbetween the two?

You can never "just" like or dislike something.  There are always reasons, whether you try to figure them out or not.  If you have serious emotional problems you go to a psychologist to figure them out, right?  So why not try to understand why you react a certain way to this album?  I think if fans just want to be lazy and say the album just sucks, they don't deserve to listen to any music.   That's the same mentality that killed Smile, the album that is the reason for this site existing in the first place.  And that's something I'll never get about a lot of Beach Boys fans.  Somehow many Smile fans are able to praise Brian's "weird" lost music while totally trashing the amazing, "weird" stuff he actually finished ("Smiley Smile," "Love You").  That kind of mentality makes the Beach Boys looking outdated and boring to non-fans more than Mike Love ever could.

Oh, I can just like or dislike something quite easily, and for just one reason if it's a good one in my mind. In this particular case, I have several reasons why I dislike Smiley.

Fans have nothing to do with the Beach Boys looking outdated and boring. That's the band's fault. Horrid handling of their catalogue, too numerous to count greatest hits collections, the Beach Boys endless touring jukebox, the 'un-hip' striped shirts, the PR nightmares over the years (members suing members), Brian's mental illnesses, Charles Manson, etc. etc. etc.

[the captain]

No, if someone is dealing with music negatively or positively on a purely reactionary level, then pretending it's analysis, that's the problem.
If Joe Blow heras it and goes "It's weird, huh-huh, it sucks!" that's one thing. But on a review thread where we are here for the express purpose of studied analysis, it damn well is the time to analyse closely what someone's real reasons are for liking or disliking.

No arguments there.

[Jason]

Smiley Smile rocks and the only people here who get it are me, Ian, Luther, and Chris D.

[the captain]

Fans have nothing to do with the Beach Boys looking outdated...

Actually, fans have everything to do with any band "looking outdated." After all, what is outdated other than popular culture deciding that something is no longer stylish? It is completely an invention. No band would ever be outdated if not for the concept of fans (and companies) moving on to force a new "in."

[the captain]

Smiley Smile rocks and the only people here who get it are me, Ian, Luther, and Chris D.

Aw, shucks. Ain't I somethin'? And to think, I'm one of the people who said it's only an OK album. (Maybe Jason didn't read my posts closely.)

[Jason]

Aw, shucks. Ain't I somethin'? And to think, I'm one of the people who said it's only an OK album. (Maybe Jason didn't read my posts closely.)

You still get it.

[the captain]

I'd have to agree with that, I guess.

[HighOnLife]

Fans have nothing to do with the Beach Boys looking outdated...

Actually, fans have everything to do with any band "looking outdated." After all, what is outdated other than popular culture deciding that something is no longer stylish? It is completely an invention. No band would ever be outdated if not for the concept of fans (and companies) moving on to force a new "in."

The Beach Boys were once the 2nd most popular group in the world. The fans had nothing to do with it from that point. It was all up to the Boys whether they would stay in that spot or fall off the face of the earth. Did the same fate happen to the Beatles? The Stones?

I would suggest that the artist is the one holding the cards.

[the captain]

Fans have nothing to do with the Beach Boys looking outdated...

Actually, fans have everything to do with any band "looking outdated." After all, what is outdated other than popular culture deciding that something is no longer stylish? It is completely an invention. No band would ever be outdated if not for the concept of fans (and companies) moving on to force a new "in."

The Beach Boys were once the 2nd most popular group in the world. The fans had nothing to do with it from that point. It was all up to the Boys whether they would stay in that spot or fall off the face of the earth. Did the same fate happen to the Beatles? The Stones?

I would suggest that the artist is the one holding the cards.

The artist could be considered to be holding the cards if holding the cards means bowing to the whims of the public's taste. If an artist is going to do whatever that artist is going to do regardless, and live with the public's reaction, then the fans are holding the cards.

I'd say, with any true/honest artists, the public is holding the cards.

[HighOnLife]

Did the Beatles ever cater to the whims of the buying public, or in their case was it: they could sh*t a brick and sell it like it was gold?

[I. Spaceman]

Definitely.
As Paul said, "Thank You Girl was really just a way of saying thank you for buying this record".

[Chris D.]

I think if fans just want to be lazy and say the album just sucks, they don't deserve to listen to any music.

To insist that a fan who has a negative reaction toward music take the time to reason him- or herself through it and explain on some detailed level why that may be seems awfully pretentious of an artist. If someone likes it and doesn't know why, fine. If someone hates it and doesn't know why, fine. No analysis is required.

I don't think it's pretentious at all, and I don't even see why the act of analysis should be forced.  If you love something a lot, why wouldn't you involuntarily think about it to the point of thorough analysis?  I think if you're going to really criticize something you need to have specific reasons for it, whether you' think it's a model worth imitating or as an example of what not to do.  What's pretentious to me is casually dismissing someone's hard work without even offering your own creation as an example of how things should be done, whether that creation is more music or a thought-out criticism or whatever form of expression you like.  A casual dismissal implies that the person has such little regard for music that I don't think they deserve it.  If you're going to treat music as a cheap commodity then are you really fit to judge it?  I don't think so.  If you can't be bothered to explore why something is bad, then how can you ever expect to find something good?  It's the definition of pretention to arbitrarily knocking down albums, in this case, as if the musician owes you the albums and has nothing better to do than flirt with your own laziness.

Oh, I can just like or dislike something quite easily

Then explain how that is possible.

Fans have nothing to do with the Beach Boys looking outdated and boring. That's the band's fault. Horrid handling of their catalogue, too numerous to count greatest hits collections, the Beach Boys endless touring jukebox, the 'un-hip' striped shirts, the PR nightmares over the years (members suing members), Brian's mental illnesses, Charles Manson, etc. etc. etc.

A trend can only happen if people follow it, so the ones you mention (striped shirts, for example) would require the approval of a certain number of fans.  Even you focus on certain aspects of the band as being necessary parts of their character, those aspects being trends because you associate their popularity within a certain timeframe.  Somehow you even manage to view mental illness and a cult leader as trends because they can become "outdated."  By portraying the aspects of the Beach Boys you mention as trends integral to their overall character you force the band to be a certain thing.  In other words, The Beach Boys would not be the Beach Boys without Brian's mental illness or Charles Manson.  This is what I was pointing out about people forcing Smiley Smile to not be what the Beach Boys are about musically.  They see the album as being out of character.  Yet it exists, so this issue cannot be reconciled within the fans who oppose it.  You cannot pick and choose from a band's history what makes up their character.  It's all part of their character.  Your own feelings about what they should be are an entirely different subject.  You cannot decide what is real about them or what isn't, but you can decide what you like or don't like.  When a large number of fans don't like something, as many did when turning against the striped shirt image, the trend is over and the fans have made the band outdated.  If Brian's mental illness, Charles Manson, striped shirts, and poorly mishandling your catalog surged in popularity then the Beach Boys would no longer be outdated because the fans would offer new approval.  So they have a lot to do with  making a band outdated.  The band can only be itself.