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Author Topic: Sean O'Hagan and the BBs  (Read 16960 times)
Menace Wilson
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« on: August 30, 2010, 03:26:47 PM »

Can't remember seeing a thread on this subject recently, and I only just learned about it myself: the (abandoned) plan to have Sean O'Hagan of the High Llamas "oversee" a Beach Boys album with Brian(!?!).

Good article about it here, written by "DJ M" (most likely a Smiley Smiler I'd bet):

http://uncanny1.blogspot.com/2005/05/brian-wilsonandy-paleysean-ohagan.html

Would love to know more.
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Wirestone
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« Reply #1 on: August 30, 2010, 06:03:11 PM »

That's about it.

The Sean O'Hagan thing never got beyond talk.

The Don Was sessions happened, but Carl scotched the project. He didn't believe in the material.
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jackstar74
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« Reply #2 on: August 30, 2010, 09:53:37 PM »

That's about it.

The Sean O'Hagan thing never got beyond talk.

The Don Was sessions happened, but Carl scotched the project. He didn't believe in the material.

Always really blew my mind how Carl didn't believe in the material during the Was sessions, yet he was ok with the god-awful SIP tunes?Huh Carl kind of f***ed Brian over.
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« Reply #3 on: August 31, 2010, 12:17:11 AM »

I remember when that article appeared in Uncut in the summer of 1998, it was really exciting to read as I thought 'Cool, maybe there's a good album in here somewhere' but then it went on to explain about Imagination and all that. I was a big Llamas fan at the time too so it was extra disappointing. I did manage to obtain the Paley stuff a couple of years later and they were very wrong not to have released it IMO.
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« Reply #4 on: August 31, 2010, 12:24:45 AM »

I remember when that article appeared in Uncut in the summer of 1998, it was really exciting to read as I thought 'Cool, maybe there's a good album in here somewhere' but then it went on to explain about Imagination and all that. I was a big Llamas fan at the time too so it was extra disappointing. I did manage to obtain the Paley stuff a couple of years later and they were very wrong not to have released it IMO.

Agree on the Paley stuff. Sometimes it's unfairly dismissed. A wonderful 'last BBs album' was lurking in there somewhere.
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« Reply #5 on: August 31, 2010, 04:01:58 AM »

Reads like a lot of authorial input to that article...
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GoogaMooga
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« Reply #6 on: August 31, 2010, 06:18:35 AM »

I remember reading an interview with Bruce Johnston where he expressed an interest in a Beach Boys - High Llamas collaboration. I think it would have been tops! with or without Brian's involvement. But best with Brian on board as well, of course.
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Wirestone
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« Reply #7 on: August 31, 2010, 06:33:17 AM »

Also -- in Carlin's book it's suggested that Brian was not thrilled with the idea of working with Sean. He wanted to produce an album with the Beach Boys. If Don Was and Andy Paley helped, that was okay. They were friends and helped him do his thing. Bringing in Sean -- to Brian at least -- was seen as the group not trusting him, yet again.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2010, 06:34:32 AM by Wirestone » Logged
Menace Wilson
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« Reply #8 on: August 31, 2010, 07:50:11 AM »

I'm a little confused.  If Wilson was already recording with Paley and Was, how come O'Hagan was brought in?  Were they already talking about scrapping the Paley/Was stuff and starting over?
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Wirestone
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« Reply #9 on: August 31, 2010, 08:43:40 AM »

Relevant graf from Carlin's book:

"I have no idea why it didn't come together," Mike says. "I think everyone was willing to do it. I'm not sure how eager, but certainly willing." In 1998, Brian pointed the finger at Carl. "Well, a month after Carl sang Soul Searchin', he said he didn't like it and didn't want it on an album. That he didn't like it and had changed his opinion." According to Melinda Wilson, the real problem was that Carl didn't think Brian's new music was commercial enough. As a counterproposal, he and the other Beach Boys proposed teaming Brian with Sean O'Hagan, the leader of British avant-pop band the High Llamas. But Brian wasn't interested in doing that. "He didn't pick up a positive vibe," she says. "And Brian was really hurt that he had gone to them and asked them to work with him, and they had turned him down."

Some of the sequencing here might be a little off -- that'll happen when a lot of wrangling and bad feelings are put in a paragraph. But it captures the emotional dynamic. And frankly, I think Brian was wise not to collaborate with O'Hagan. The two don't actually have a lot in common aesthetically (the Llamas capture some of the sonic tricks, but it's done in service to lounge/exotica irony), and I can't imagine a collaboration working out particularly well.
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exposedbrain
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« Reply #10 on: August 31, 2010, 09:00:03 AM »

I wouldn't say that their borrowing of lounge/exotica styles is ironic. I think Sean O'Hagan genuinely appreciates and is influenced by that music.
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Wirestone
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« Reply #11 on: August 31, 2010, 09:09:33 AM »

I think you're right. Irony isn't the word I want.

The general point is more that Sean O'Hagan has a certain distant, chiller approach to his musical materials. None of the Llamas songs (that I've heard) seem like they were written in moment of personal anguish (or, for that matter, jubilation). It's a somewhat detached approach.

This isn't to say the music isn't brilliant -- I actually managed to see the band on a rare U.S. tour and chat with Mr. O'Hagan some 12 years ago. A really nice guy, who really loves his "Friends." But that also makes sense, because that's one of the most lounge/exotica influenced BB albums, and one featuring a certain coolness and detachment.
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Menace Wilson
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« Reply #12 on: August 31, 2010, 09:23:55 AM »

This story really gives a whiff of just how toxic things were/are in BBs-land.  "Let's bring in a guy to sound like young Brian since old Brian ain't cutting it."  Not to mention Mike Love's seemingly resentful, passive/aggressive behavior towards O'Hagan, or Johnston's "be corporate...The Beach Boys love corporate" stuff.  Uggghhhh. 

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« Reply #13 on: August 31, 2010, 09:25:50 AM »

Relevant graf from Carlin's book:

"I have no idea why it didn't come together," Mike says. "I think everyone was willing to do it. I'm not sure how eager, but certainly willing." In 1998, Brian pointed the finger at Carl. "Well, a month after Carl sang Soul Searchin', he said he didn't like it and didn't want it on an album. That he didn't like it and had changed his opinion." According to Melinda Wilson, the real problem was that Carl didn't think Brian's new music was commercial enough. As a counterproposal, he and the other Beach Boys proposed teaming Brian with Sean O'Hagan, the leader of British avant-pop band the High Llamas. But Brian wasn't interested in doing that. "He didn't pick up a positive vibe," she says. "And Brian was really hurt that he had gone to them and asked them to work with him, and they had turned him down."

Some of the sequencing here might be a little off -- that'll happen when a lot of wrangling and bad feelings are put in a paragraph. But it captures the emotional dynamic. And frankly, I think Brian was wise not to collaborate with O'Hagan. The two don't actually have a lot in common aesthetically (the Llamas capture some of the sonic tricks, but it's done in service to lounge/exotica irony), and I can't imagine a collaboration working out particularly well.
Working out well musically? Or not working out well personally? Personally, I'm fairly confident I would find the outcome of their collaboration wildly interesting.
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« Reply #14 on: August 31, 2010, 09:41:05 AM »

This is from a review of some Sunrays collection by Richie Unterberger. I think that it accurately expresses the problem with bands who say they're "influenced by" The Beach Boys:
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[A]s was often the case in imitative rock music, the Sunrays were a much more lightweight version of the original model. Imagine the Beach Boys' most superficial and Whitest mid-'60s sides with more mainstream L.A. pop arrangements and you have some idea of where the Sunrays were coming from. The harmonies are accomplished but on the sterile side, with even more of the Four Freshmen influence that colored the Beach Boys' vocal arrangements. [. . .] And, most important, the material is mostly inconsequential, frothy pop [. . .] To be honest, they make the Beach Boys  sound gritty, proving that it took more than smooth, high vocal harmonies to capture that group's magic; it also took the complexity and emotional depth of Brian Wilson's compositions and production, which of course couldn't be emulated.
Of course, replace 'The Sunrays' and 'Rick Henn' with whatever '90s/2000s Beach-Boys-influenced band you like! I think it still fits. Am I cynical? Probably! Too many bands can capture the letter of The Beach Boys well enough in making complex, pleasant-sounding pop music with fine vocal harmonies and whatnot. The spirit, however, is the missing aspect of the feel that truly makes it transcendent. I think one of the few recent albums to capture both is The Complete Pet Soul by Splitsville. See: "Aliceanna", "The Love Songs Of B. Douglas Wilson" (no merda!), "Caroline Knows", and so on. Curiously, their imitation manages to not be merely that; ostensibly it is because they -- as you might say of a gospel group -- got the spirit!
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Andrew G. Doe
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« Reply #15 on: August 31, 2010, 09:55:26 AM »

Relevant graf from Carlin's book:

"I have no idea why it didn't come together," Mike says. "I think everyone was willing to do it. I'm not sure how eager, but certainly willing." In 1998, Brian pointed the finger at Carl. "Well, a month after Carl sang Soul Searchin', he said he didn't like it and didn't want it on an album. That he didn't like it and had changed his opinion." According to Melinda Wilson, the real problem was that Carl didn't think Brian's new music was commercial enough. As a counterproposal, he and the other Beach Boys proposed teaming Brian with Sean O'Hagan, the leader of British avant-pop band the High Llamas. But Brian wasn't interested in doing that. "He didn't pick up a positive vibe," she says. "And Brian was really hurt that he had gone to them and asked them to work with him, and they had turned him down."

There's a degree of dis-ingenuity here in leaving out a major portion of the equation, which was the offer that was on the table from V2 and its being declined by Brian's management who decided he needed to do a solo album (Imagination) first. Bruce has gone on record as saying that was one of the stupidest decisions in the band's history.
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« Reply #16 on: August 31, 2010, 10:44:52 AM »

Two more anecdotes: O'Hagan reportedly met with Joe Thomas, who in his words was producing "very right-wing country artists" and mentioned that Brian was an avant-garde artist and Thomas laughed in his face.

When Brian was asked of O'Hagan he said "he's doing things I did thirty years ago, why would I want to do that?"
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« Reply #17 on: August 31, 2010, 10:47:25 AM »

Everyone quoted in this story (O'Hagan, Bruce, Melinda, Brian) has an agenda.

It makes it very hard to figure out an objective truth.
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« Reply #18 on: August 31, 2010, 11:08:08 AM »

"He's doing things I did 30 years ago, why would I want to do that?" says Brian a couple of years before he takes Pet Sounds out on the road and resurrects Smile. Oh the irony!
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« Reply #19 on: August 31, 2010, 11:11:08 AM »

It's up to debate, but I'm pretty sure Brian was talked into Pet Sounds & Smile tours, it wasn't necessarily his idea or his favorite thing to do. Now if it was the "Shortenin' Bread" Tour, yes then I'd agree.
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I like the Beatles a bit more than the Boys of Beach, I think Brian's band is the tops---really amazing. And finally, I'm liberal. That's it.
Wirestone
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« Reply #20 on: August 31, 2010, 11:14:15 AM »

I think the Brian quote is of questionable veracity. It appeared in print, I know, but still ...

Also, the band was offered a Pet Sounds tour (with Brian) of its own, but Carl shot that down because he told Melinda that he thought Brian would embarrass himself.
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« Reply #21 on: August 31, 2010, 11:16:07 AM »

I know Mike might not be the warmest guy in the world all the time but I find it really hard to believe he called Sean O'Hagan a f****t as soon as they met. . .
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Menace Wilson
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« Reply #22 on: August 31, 2010, 11:17:53 AM »

I think the Brian quote is of questionable veracity. It appeared in print, I know, but still ...

I had the same thought.  It doesn't sound like something he'd say.
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Wirestone
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« Reply #23 on: August 31, 2010, 11:21:17 AM »

I kinda doubt that Sean O'Hagan played live with the band. I've never heard it from anyone other than him -- although, they did play Cincinnati on August 9 1996 (http://www.btinternet.com/~bellagio/gigs96.html), so it possible. That narrows down the time frame, too -- that's after sessions for Stars and Stripes wrapped, but before its release. Joe Thomas was on the scene by that point, too.

(The dismissal of a Cincinnati Beach Boys crowd as rednecks? Pretty silly.)
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jackstar74
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« Reply #24 on: September 01, 2010, 12:10:34 PM »

I said it before and I'll say it again, Carl really screwed Brian over during this time.
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