How the Holland LP stands up in 1973

[Magic Transistor Radio]

A lot of people on here are saying that music went way down hill after 1973. Well, on the one hand, I think that it was the end of one of the greatest eras in music. The psychadelic/proggressive era was one of the most creative times in music. But the mid 70s saw something different on the horizen. Bands like Queen, ELO, Devo, The B-52s, U2, REM, etc all had something fresh and new to say. And I could easily start another thread comparing Love You to other albums in 1977.

Anyway, I am pleasently suprised the Holland received considerations for album of the year! I really like Holland, but I don't think it stands up to Dark Side. I do think it stands up to Band on the Run and Mind Games.

Blondie Chaplin summed up what I feel in an interview. He said that Holland was better then So Tough. But the direction the Beach Boys were going (with Chaplin/Fataar and Carl as producer) was not fully realised. It only had two years to develop. Pacific Ocean Blue gives a good idea of what the next album might have sounded like had they continued to move forward.

[matt-zeus]

I do believe that Matt-Zeus hit it right on the head!
Him and I both share the Genesis/Beach Boys as our 2 favorite bands. And the Genesis I'm talking about is anything BEFORE "Duke"(which was their last real Genesis LP).
It's the structure of the chords and song craftsmanship by Brian Wilson and Tony Banks/Mike Rutherford/Steve Hackett that actually make these two bands very "akin" to one another.
But above all...........it's the Heartfelt EMOTION that both bands bring to their music that has always been the real draw to myself.

 Bri

I would put Queen as my absolute favourite with the BB, Led Zeppelin and Genesis in joint second. I always thought Queen were (to be simplistic) a cross between the BBs and Zeppelin early on. There are many parallels between Queen and Genesis too, particularly in regard to the division of their 70s and 80s work, though I find Queens 80s work a lot more palatable than Genesis'!

[Menace Wilson]

(...)though I find Queens 80s work a lot more palatable than Genesis'!

I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that Genesis continued to be great up thru Genesis in '83.  Invisible Touch in '86 had some okay moments, but was a little obvious and massively overexposed. 

The real career killer (imo) was We Can't Dance in '91.   

[matt-zeus]

(...)though I find Queens 80s work a lot more palatable than Genesis'!

I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that Genesis continued to be great up thru Genesis in '83.  Invisible Touch in '86 had some okay moments, but was a little obvious and massively overexposed. 

The real career killer (imo) was We Can't Dance in '91.   

Oh yeah I actually quite like Invisible Touch as it was the first Genesis album I ever heard when I was very little - it's a great 80s pop album - to me WCD as you rightly point out is the low point.

[Mike's Beard]

I rarely listen to them anymore but Queen firmly remain in my top 10 all time groups. Their 1973 debut was pretty good and I consider Queen 2 to be a masterpiece, it's one part metal, one part Brian Wilson, set to Tokienish lyrics.

Queen's 80's albums were hideous but even then they always managed to write a couple of good singles for each one and were amazing live.

[matt-zeus]

I rarely listen to them anymore but Queen firmly remain in my top 10 all time groups. Their 1973 debut was pretty good and I consider Queen 2 to be a masterpiece, it's one part metal, one part Brian Wilson, set to Tokienish lyrics.

Queen's 80's albums were hideous but even then they always managed to write a couple of good singles for each one and were amazing live.

Queen 2 is indeed a masterpiece IMO, the whole thing is great, the first 3 songs sets it up but it's side two which really shows just how brilliant a writer Freddie was, the whole thing is fucking genius.

I know some people are down on their 80s stuff but there are plenty of gems in there, I think it was a lack of inspiration, indifference, drugs, band infighting, the changing pop scene, technology etc which meant they had to change. I think there's a handful of really great songs on each album from Hot Space (really underrated) up through to Innuendo. 1989s The Miracle I think is their weakest album but there's still some fun bits on it.

[Mike's Beard]

Freddie was a great songwriter up until the late 70's then the parties, coke and male orgies really seemed to sidetrack him creatively. Notice how it was Roger and John "the background two" that wrote practically all the 80's hits.

[the captain]

Freddie wrote some cool '80s songs, too, though, if not necessarily hits. But he has been quoted in interviews (around the time of his solo album) as saying he just didn't have the patience to work at songs at that point: if it wasn't going to come right away, fuckit. And frankly, that's how a lot of (but not all) 1980s Queen sounds to me. Here's an idea, ok, good enough. Done.

[MD]

"Ringo" LP by Ringo Starr...

Arguably his best...

MD...

[Mr. Cohen]

As an aside, am I the only one who thinks that the Beach Boys were absolutely crazy to think that the whole ecological/political angle on Surf's Up and through to Holland would get them mainstream respect? I wasn't alive at the time, but when I hear music from the early 70s, I don't see where ecology and politics were a major factor on the charts. I hear that 70s funk vibe creeping in, more 'rock ballads', more dramatic performances with more theatrics, and a syrupy sheen coating everything.

Adding a more funky contingent to the band was a good idea, but the raw, rustic feels on So Tough and Holland don't sound radio-friendly to me (except for "Marcella", but they took too long to release it as a single, going with "Mess of Help" instead). It doesn't have that sheen you expect on your typical Hot 100 topper. Don't misunderstand me,  I like the direction they were taking musically, but it didn't seem mainstream. I guess they were going for the artsy crowd, but did attracting that smaller crowd really translate into a lot of record sales? And why the artsy crowd? It was like the BBs biggest long shot after the late 60s, but they went after it. It's like they still couldn't get over their failure with SMiLE psychologically. 6 years had gone by and it's like they wanted that '66 hippie crowd!  Maybe people were wearing bell-bottoms, but they didn't have the radical mindsets of that era.

And the politics/ecological commentaries on Surf's Up... are you kidding me? Did they expect people to sing "Don't Go Near the Water" in their homes? Again, I love the music, but the lyrics are absolutely silly by most people's standards. If you can't play a song for your friends without them scratching their heads or laughing, I'm sorry, but you have to accept that it's silly. "Feel Flows" should of been a single, I think, except they messed up with Jack's overly esoteric lyrics. Tone it down, Jack, we get that you're intelligent already, but not even James Joyce was this willfully confusing. Can anyone tell me what that song means, beside that I need to feel things flow?

Again, I love these albums, but if I was their manager, I would have told them that they were flushing their careers down the toilet, and fast. They were better off taking their Sunflower approach and making it even more mature in terms of lyrical concepts. Dennis managed to combine very mature musical and lyrical concepts with "Forever", and the BBs messed it up again by not pushing it as the lead single. At the same time, I can't fault them for picking "Add Some Music", as it was actually pretty good from a maturity concept (could've been a 3 Dog Night song!) and was written by Brian. I think their image is what held it back. Had they persevered with more songs like that, I think they would have eventually broken through. In my opinion, what had hurt them the most in the last few years before Sunflower in terms of public approval was Brian's goofy innocence. I like the concept of the song "Friends", but do you see Joe Sixpack singing along when it comes on his radio? Probably not.

Should have hired me as a manager!

[the captain]

I wasn't alive at the time either, but the late 60s and early 70s were when ecological awareness was taking off. I'm not saying it was top of the charts, but remember, they were going for top of the charts via coolness. And coolness? Yeah, i'd say ecological awareness was in that vein. It was the post-hippie but still back-to-earth kind of vibe. Wasn't the first Earth Day in 1970? And that is when in the U.S. the first modern environmental legislation was passed (under FUCKINGNIXON!).

[Jon Stebbins]

As an aside, am I the only one who thinks that the Beach Boys were absolutely crazy to think that the whole ecological/political angle on Surf's Up and through to Holland would get them mainstream respect? I wasn't alive at the time, but when I hear music from the early 70s, I don't see where ecology and politics were a major factor on the charts.

Go back and research the LP and singles charts in the early '70's. Ecological and politically themed releases like Marvin Gaye's "Mercy Mercy Me (The Ecology)" and CSNY's "Ohio" were definitely a major factor on the charts. Was it a good idea for the BB's to follow suit? In a few cases it worked and in a few it was pretentious. But to say those themes were not commercially viable in those days really proves you weren't around...and that you don't research your points.

[the captain]

Note to self: don't forget to research before posting on message board.

[drbeachboy]

@Luther

Lots of people pose questions here looking for answers; hopefully factual. A little research goes a long way. I was in the 13-16 years old range during the 1970-1973 period. Top 40 radio may not have been all ecological/political, but FM radio sure was. That was the hip thing to sing about. At that point in The Boys' career, that was where they were aiming their sites. Surf's Up and Holland both fared decently because of it. When you compare how well Friends, 20/20 and Sunflower did, I would say they pretty much made the right move going in that direction. Overall though, I think their live act helped more than anything else. They were especially good from 71 through 73. They could rock the house.

[the captain]

I think either you think I was asking a question about the ecological messaging (which I wasn't) or you're missing that I'm joking around with the "research" thing (which I was).

[drbeachboy]

I figured that you were teasing Jon. I took it as a half joking, half meant it, type of remark. I'm glad it was whole joking. ;-)

[The Heartical Don]

As an aside, am I the only one who thinks that the Beach Boys were absolutely crazy to think that the whole ecological/political angle on Surf's Up and through to Holland would get them mainstream respect? I wasn't alive at the time, but when I hear music from the early 70s, I don't see where ecology and politics were a major factor on the charts.

Go back and research the LP and singles charts in the early '70's. Ecological and politically themed releases like Marvin Gaye's "Mercy Mercy Me (The Ecology)" and CSNY's "Ohio" were definitely a major factor on the charts. Was it a good idea for the BB's to follow suit? In a few cases it worked and in a few it was pretentious. But to say those themes were not commercially viable in those days really proves you weren't around...and that you don't research your points.

I want to point out here that back then, Jack Rieley and Dutchman Machiel Botman released an eco-themed album that is pretty good, according to AGD (Andrew, I hope I remembered this rightly). It was quite pretentious, but got good reviews at the time. It was called 'Western Justice'. If I am right, Carl was involved in some way or another. I will do a bit of research soonish on this topic. I'd guess the album was ahead of its time.

[phirnis]

The Western Justice album was even reissued on CD a couple of years ago. Never heard it, though. I always imagine it to sound like a cross between "The Trader" and Neil Young.

[The Heartical Don]

It's easy  go to: http://www.western-justice.com

Carl's not mentioned in the list of those involved. However, I was quite surprised to see Roxy Music's Eddie Jobson there, and producer John Leckie in a much younger incarnation.

[MBE]

Western Justice is ok. I'm not overly impressed but it's worth hearing as a curo. There are some photos in of underage nudes. That was a little creepy.

[The Heartical Don]

Western Justice is ok. I'm not overly impressed but it's worth hearing as a curo. There are some photos in of underage nudes. That was a little creepy.

I'd say that back then '60s ideology was still going strong. Underage nudes wouldn't be accepted nowadays. Back then, discussions about legalizing paedophilia were doing the rounds, also about taking away legal restrictions re: the age of consent. Strange days indeed...

[Mike's Beard]

Legalising paedophilia? Proof positive that people were taking too many substances in the early 70's!

[The Heartical Don]

Legalising paedophilia? Proof positive that people were taking too many substances in the early 70's!

Don't know. Those were other times; I think the world nowadays, despite its many problems, has a more sober and healthy outlook on these matters. Then, you also had very dubious porn (re: the age of the female models), normally available in street shops. Group sex was fully accepted, and I don't even want to know how many marriages were destroyed by that, not to mention the number of children that were burdened with psychiatric problems for the rest of their lives by their swinger parents...

[Magic Transistor Radio]

As an aside, am I the only one who thinks that the Beach Boys were absolutely crazy to think that the whole ecological/political angle on Surf's Up and through to Holland would get them mainstream respect? I wasn't alive at the time, but when I hear music from the early 70s, I don't see where ecology and politics were a major factor on the charts. I hear that 70s funk vibe creeping in, more 'rock ballads', more dramatic performances with more theatrics, and a syrupy sheen coating everything.

Adding a more funky contingent to the band was a good idea, but the raw, rustic feels on So Tough and Holland don't sound radio-friendly to me (except for "Marcella", but they took too long to release it as a single, going with "Mess of Help" instead). It doesn't have that sheen you expect on your typical Hot 100 topper. Don't misunderstand me,  I like the direction they were taking musically, but it didn't seem mainstream. I guess they were going for the artsy crowd, but did attracting that smaller crowd really translate into a lot of record sales? And why the artsy crowd? It was like the BBs biggest long shot after the late 60s, but they went after it. It's like they still couldn't get over their failure with SMiLE psychologically. 6 years had gone by and it's like they wanted that '66 hippie crowd!  Maybe people were wearing bell-bottoms, but they didn't have the radical mindsets of that era.

And the politics/ecological commentaries on Surf's Up... are you kidding me? Did they expect people to sing "Don't Go Near the Water" in their homes? Again, I love the music, but the lyrics are absolutely silly by most people's standards. If you can't play a song for your friends without them scratching their heads or laughing, I'm sorry, but you have to accept that it's silly. "Feel Flows" should of been a single, I think, except they messed up with Jack's overly esoteric lyrics. Tone it down, Jack, we get that you're intelligent already, but not even James Joyce was this willfully confusing. Can anyone tell me what that song means, beside that I need to feel things flow?

Again, I love these albums, but if I was their manager, I would have told them that they were flushing their careers down the toilet, and fast. They were better off taking their Sunflower approach and making it even more mature in terms of lyrical concepts. Dennis managed to combine very mature musical and lyrical concepts with "Forever", and the BBs messed it up again by not pushing it as the lead single. At the same time, I can't fault them for picking "Add Some Music", as it was actually pretty good from a maturity concept (could've been a 3 Dog Night song!) and was written by Brian. I think their image is what held it back. Had they persevered with more songs like that, I think they would have eventually broken through. In my opinion, what had hurt them the most in the last few years before Sunflower in terms of public approval was Brian's goofy innocence. I like the concept of the song "Friends", but do you see Joe Sixpack singing along when it comes on his radio? Probably not.

Should have hired me as a manager!

Adding a more funky contingent to the band was a good idea, but the raw, rustic feels on So Tough and Holland don't sound radio-friendly to me (except for "Marcella", but they took too long to release it as a single, going with "Mess of Help" instead). It doesn't have that sheen you expect on your typical Hot 100 topper. Don't misunderstand me,  I like the direction they were taking musically, but it didn't seem mainstream. I guess they were going for the artsy crowd, but did attracting that smaller crowd really translate into a lot of record sales? And why the artsy crowd? It was like the BBs biggest long shot after the late 60s, but they went after it. It's like they still couldn't get over their failure with SMiLE psychologically. 6 years had gone by and it's like they wanted that '66 hippie crowd!  Maybe people were wearing bell-bottoms, but they didn't have the radical mindsets of that era.

And the politics/ecological commentaries on Surf's Up... are you kidding me? Did they expect people to sing "Don't Go Near the Water" in their homes? Again, I love the music, but the lyrics are absolutely silly by most people's standards. If you can't play a song for your friends without them scratching their heads or laughing, I'm sorry, but you have to accept that it's silly. "Feel Flows" should of been a single, I think, except they messed up with Jack's overly esoteric lyrics. Tone it down, Jack, we get that you're intelligent already, but not even James Joyce was this willfully confusing. Can anyone tell me what that song means, beside that I need to feel things flow?

Again, I love these albums, but if I was their manager, I would have told them that they were flushing their careers down the toilet, and fast. They were better off taking their Sunflower approach and making it even more mature in terms of lyrical concepts. Dennis managed to combine very mature musical and lyrical concepts with "Forever", and the BBs messed it up again by not pushing it as the lead single. At the same time, I can't fault them for picking "Add Some Music", as it was actually pretty good from a maturity concept (could've been a 3 Dog Night song!) and was written by Brian. I think their image is what held it back. Had they persevered with more songs like that, I think they would have eventually broken through. In my opinion, what had hurt them the most in the last few years before Sunflower in terms of public approval was Brian's goofy innocence. I like the concept of the song "Friends", but do you see Joe Sixpack singing along when it comes on his radio? Probably not.

Should have hired me as a manager!

[Magic Transistor Radio]

As an aside, am I the only one who thinks that the Beach Boys were absolutely crazy to think that the whole ecological/political angle on Surf's Up and through to Holland would get them mainstream respect? I wasn't alive at the time, but when I hear music from the early 70s, I don't see where ecology and politics were a major factor on the charts. I hear that 70s funk vibe creeping in, more 'rock ballads', more dramatic performances with more theatrics, and a syrupy sheen coating everything.

Adding a more funky contingent to the band was a good idea, but the raw, rustic feels on So Tough and Holland don't sound radio-friendly to me (except for "Marcella", but they took too long to release it as a single, going with "Mess of Help" instead). It doesn't have that sheen you expect on your typical Hot 100 topper. Don't misunderstand me,  I like the direction they were taking musically, but it didn't seem mainstream. I guess they were going for the artsy crowd, but did attracting that smaller crowd really translate into a lot of record sales? And why the artsy crowd? It was like the BBs biggest long shot after the late 60s, but they went after it. It's like they still couldn't get over their failure with SMiLE psychologically. 6 years had gone by and it's like they wanted that '66 hippie crowd!  Maybe people were wearing bell-bottoms, but they didn't have the radical mindsets of that era.

And the politics/ecological commentaries on Surf's Up... are you kidding me? Did they expect people to sing "Don't Go Near the Water" in their homes? Again, I love the music, but the lyrics are absolutely silly by most people's standards. If you can't play a song for your friends without them scratching their heads or laughing, I'm sorry, but you have to accept that it's silly. "Feel Flows" should of been a single, I think, except they messed up with Jack's overly esoteric lyrics. Tone it down, Jack, we get that you're intelligent already, but not even James Joyce was this willfully confusing. Can anyone tell me what that song means, beside that I need to feel things flow?

Again, I love these albums, but if I was their manager, I would have told them that they were flushing their careers down the toilet, and fast. They were better off taking their Sunflower approach and making it even more mature in terms of lyrical concepts. Dennis managed to combine very mature musical and lyrical concepts with "Forever", and the BBs messed it up again by not pushing it as the lead single. At the same time, I can't fault them for picking "Add Some Music", as it was actually pretty good from a maturity concept (could've been a 3 Dog Night song!) and was written by Brian. I think their image is what held it back. Had they persevered with more songs like that, I think they would have eventually broken through. In my opinion, what had hurt them the most in the last few years before Sunflower in terms of public approval was Brian's goofy innocence. I like the concept of the song "Friends", but do you see Joe Sixpack singing along when it comes on his radio? Probably not.

Should have hired me as a manager!

I believe that they were very succesful in changing their image. They went from being surfing Dorris Days in 1970 to a very hip underground band in 1971.  Not that images are always real, but they did get some minor hit songs and underground radio play around that time. I believe that one more album after Holland could have put them back into the mainstream. Of course they did with Endless Summer. But imagine if they had also released a proggressive album that was a big hit at the same time! 2 Different mainstream audiences at the same show. Could've been crazy!