Brian & SMiLE

[Mike's Beard]

Pepper was 11 years before I was born so I can offer zero cultural perspective on the album Jon, only what I have read in the history books. Yes it was a watershed moment from a production standpoint, opened the public's mind to what a 'pop' group could achieve musically, spearheaded the shift from singles to 'album orientated material', blah blah blah......  but looking back years later can anyone honestly say "Being for the Benefit of Mr.Kite" is y'know, a good song? 

[Sam_BFC]

Has Brian ever performed Heroes and Villains with his band like the single/Smiley version?

Not sure - been a while since I've watched the Radio City DVD. Anyone ?

I think the Radio City version is just like the single version with the ascending vocal harmony thing at the end.  Or basicallly the BWPS version without the intro, cantina section or tag...?

[Jon Stebbins]

Pepper was 11 years before I was born so I can offer zero cultural perspective on the album Jon, only what I have read in the history books. Yes it was a watershed moment from a production standpoint, opened the public's mind to what a 'pop' group could achieve musically, spearheaded the shift from singles to 'album orientated material', blah blah blah......  but looking back years later can anyone honestly say "Being for the Benefit of Mr.Kite" is y'know, a good song? 

It's good compared to "Whistle In".

[Mike's Beard]

I'd say they're a draw. 

[Curtis Leon]

Pepper was 11 years before I was born so I can offer zero cultural perspective on the album Jon, only what I have read in the history books. Yes it was a watershed moment from a production standpoint, opened the public's mind to what a 'pop' group could achieve musically, spearheaded the shift from singles to 'album orientated material', blah blah blah......  but looking back years later can anyone honestly say "Being for the Benefit of Mr.Kite" is y'know, a good song? 

Um... yeah? A good song is a good song no matter who, where, or what made it. It's like calling the Kinks outdated. Music that like doesn't date.

[TdHabib]

but looking back years later can anyone honestly say "Being for the Benefit of Mr.Kite" is y'know, a good song? 

A fantastic song and production. I love it.

[Mike's Beard]

Curtis, my point was I thought it was a terrible song! Thought so when I first heard it around the age of 13, still think so now after Christ knows how many changes in my musical tastes. "She's Leaving Home" is another song I cannot physically listen to.

[Mr. Cohen]

Ringo doesn't even think that Sgt. Pepper was the Beatles best album. It was more the feeling of the era, which permeated the record, that made it such a watershed moment.

[rab2591]

but looking back years later can anyone honestly say "Being for the Benefit of Mr.Kite" is y'know, a good song? 

I can't say I really like the original version, but the 'Love' version is fantastic:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IG2zgWdYgCY

I'd have to say 'Rubber Soul' is my favorite album by the Beatles, but I can't think of a better song in their collection than 'Lovely Rita' - ok, maybe 'Here There And Everywhere', but still....

[Ron]

Revolver has always been my favorite Beatles album, I can still remember the first time I heard it.  I played that stuff so much when I was younger though I really haven't listened to any of it for years. 

[Runaways]

since we're on the beatles and sgt peppers.  EVERYONE should watch this video of this dude explaining why sgt peppers is much better than pet sounds.  gosh it's just hilarious. so so hilarious. even the beatles' fans can't believe how bad it is

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wpH_grmjJxA

and in regards to this thread.  my thought is MEH.  brian always answers the most recent thing he's done.  i mean he downplays pet sounds a lot.  SMiLE was his masterpiece.  i'd relax on what he's saying now.

[Curtis Leon]

Curtis, my point was I thought it was a terrible song! Thought so when I first heard it around the age of 13, still think so now after Christ knows how many changes in my musical tastes. "She's Leaving Home" is another song I cannot physically listen to.

You hate "She's Leaving Home" too?! Ah, man...

[buddhahat]

Sgt. Pepper's only problem is over saturation and mass acceptance and decades of adoration. Because of that people with limited perspective sometime feel the need to take a contrary point of view because they feel hip or more original doing that.

I agree with a lot of what you say but I'm not so sure about the above statement. I don't think it's about taking a contrary pov purely to appear hip. Of course there are those that do that, but some people truly value under-exposure, and cult status and I believe these things becomes as much a real aesthetic element to them as the beauty of the music itself.

They are not being short sighted. The in-crowdness of this secret album or band they're into actually enhances the beauty of the music and the mythology that surrounds it. After all, we are not just enjoying pure sound when we listen to music, but the narrative within the lyrics, the personalities and biogs of the bandmembers - it all becomes intertwined and I don't believe it's possible to say one element is more important than another.

I'm not trying to be argumentative. Funnily enough, I got into a disagreement on a message board a few years back with some guys that favoured Satanic Majesties over Sgt pepper. I said, "surely if you'd never heard pepper, then you heard it, it would blow your mind - much more than satanic Majesties?" But in retrospect I was missing the point I think, because they preferred the stones album. Whatever the reason, they preferred it. It was more beautiful to them either because it just was, or its underdog status made it more attractive - who knows. I guess you can take this argument to its logical conclusion and say, if somebody prefers the chicken song to Strawberry Fields Forever and somebody else is the opposite, who is right? It is a very complex problem I think.

[Wrightfan]

And why would Brian wipe a piece of his biggest project?

I recall having read that even if Brian had wanted to, he could not have erased his own recorded material. IIRC, the tapes were property of Capitol (as they were paying for the sessions) and any engineer that would let an artist destroy or wipe master tapes would probably get in trouble with the union.

I believe Brian wiped the master for The Little Girl I Once Knew... And I can hear some trace elements of a previous track in I'm Waiting For The Day. So it's not completely unreasonable.

Where in I'm Waiting for the day can you hear elements of a track other then the main one?

[Andrew G. Doe]

Now that is just hysterical: reminds me of a five-year-old stamping their foot and screaming "because I say so, because it is !!!".

[Jim V.]

Honestly, I don't see why it can't be accepted that Brian apparently thought the "feel" of Smiley Smile was what he wanted go with instead of the original SMiLE sessions. Why does it have to be that he wasn't telling the truth when he decided he'd rather put out an album like that. Obviously, his head was more in that way at the time, as people have said (i.e. "Busy Doin' Nothin'", "I Went to Sleep", etc').

It was obviously important for him to finish "Heroes" and as evidenced about the big to-do about bringing it to the radio station that one night, he still wanted to have it be a big deal. So, maybe his aesthetics switched. I am honestly a believer that he just wasn't into doin the SMiLE thing anymore, and he did what he wanted to do afterwards.

[Ian]

As far as I can tell-Brian ran out of time on Smile-due to a large number of factors-and that the BBs convinced him that they had to get a product out quickly as over a year had passed since Pet Sounds.  So they hastily recorded Smiley Smile to get some product out, however Brian still believed in Heroes and wanted to finish it.  I believe that he thought he had a great single-and it is pretty damn good-but I think that he over thought the thing-which many musicians do when they have too much time to play with it-it was better in Feb 67 than it was by July 67.  I think Smiley Smile other than Heroes was less about art and more about getting something in the shops.  Bruce's virtual absence-suggests that it may also have been an attempt by the group to rebuild a slightly damaged relationship with the head BB-after arguments over the previous year.  Hence-Brian's also agreeing to play Hawaii-to get back some BB spirit and the "straight" BBs decision to get a little crazy that summer-to bring the band closer together

[rab2591]

There is no way Brian was 100% happy (heck, I'd even say 60% happy) with Smiley Smile....this is not based off of any factual information, but off the quality of work (compared to that of SMiLE) that was produced during the Smiley Smile sessions.

When he completed Pet Sounds, Brian took the album back to his place and he and Marilyn listened to it and cried...It was Brian's heart and soul on an album.

Can you imagine Brian taking 'Smiley Smile' home to give it a listen with Marilyn and crying afterwords at how beautiful it was? Hell no. I can see this happening with SMiLE....but not Smiley Smile.

Personally, I think after the failure (delayed success) of SMiLE, Brian went into 'I don't give a sh*t' mode where he still wrote beautiful music (Busy Doin Nothin', Time To Get Alone), but didn't have the drive/self-esteem to make any more FULL conceptual albums.

[Myk Luhv]

I like how Phillip Lambert phrased the transition Brian made from his progressive era to Smiley Smile and ever after: he stopped working to change the paradigm in which pop was created [as he did from Today! to Pet Sounds and the Smile sessions] and began to work within the dominant paradigm [giving us e.g. Wild Honey, Friends, and so on]. There is no denying that his work post-Smile is excellent and bountiful, but it is not at all the same sort of music that he was making before, when he was at is artistic and creative peak. I love the stuff he made after he stopped trying to change popular music, of course, but it is still disappointing listening to what could have been potentially but ultimately never was actually. So it goes...

[Ganz Allein]

There is no way Brian was 100% happy (heck, I'd even say 60% happy) with Smiley Smile....this is not based off of any factual information, but off the quality of work (compared to that of SMiLE) that was produced during the Smiley Smile sessions.

When he completed Pet Sounds, Brian took the album back to his place and he and Marilyn listened to it and cried...It was Brian's heart and soul on an album.

Can you imagine Brian taking 'Smiley Smile' home to give it a listen with Marilyn and crying afterwords at how beautiful it was? Hell no. I can see this happening with SMiLE....but not Smiley Smile.

Personally, I think after the failure (delayed success) of SMiLE, Brian went into 'I don't give a merda' mode where he still wrote beautiful music (Busy Doin Nothin', Time To Get Alone), but didn't have the drive/self-esteem to make any more FULL conceptual albums.

That's how I see it, too. And Brian has such a great musical gift that the music couldn't stop coming out of him even if he didn't give a merda.  I also believe that the decision to shelve SMiLE was Brian's alone. But that doesn't mean that he wanted to shelve it.  I think he just saw no way to get it out and make everyone happy - and he lost confidence from the negativity, drugs, etc.  As has been previously mentioned, if SMiLE were just some album that Brian got bored with or felt wasn't his direction any more, it wouldn't have been such a big deal for him all those years. He would've had no problem talking about it and wouldn't have felt the need to hide from it.

[lance]

As far as I can tell-Brian ran out of time on Smile-due to a large number of factors-and that the BBs convinced him that they had to get a product out quickly as over a year had passed since Pet Sounds. 

I liked the rest of the post, but this doesn't add up. If it was just an attempt to 'get some product' out and only that...well, there were a few songs more or less completed already in the can. Maybe they needed some final splicing or editing or something, but they were pretty much done.

Wonderful
Wind chimes
'Fire'
Vegetables
He Gives Speeches
Our Prayer

They could have easily hastily assembled the finished product, finished up Heroes & Villains as is, then recorded the five or so other songs Smiley-smile quick-like. Would have been even quicker, in fact as half the album (rather than one song, good vibrations) would have already been recorded.

Sure the album would have been an obvious hodgepodge, patchy affair, but, hey it's product and still might have been more commercial than Smiley Smile.

I think getting product out was a primary concern of hte record label and probably the Beach Boy organization as a whole.

But I honestly think Brian deliberately set out to make a bad record. Part of him might have been sick of the material after having worked on it and the artist in him needed to move on; part of him was pissed off at elements in the band who weren't excited about it(I mean, he'd written Surf's Up! They thought it was sh*t--you can see where that would piss you off and bruise your ego, of which I think Brian might have had plenty of; pissed off about the record company pressure; part of him was just a little wacked out anyway. Maybe it was a joke, part of Brian's weird sense of humor; maybe it was a gigantic f*** you to everybody, including the stupid fun-in-the-sun fans, who knows?

[Curtis Leon]

As far as I can tell-Brian ran out of time on Smile-due to a large number of factors-and that the BBs convinced him that they had to get a product out quickly as over a year had passed since Pet Sounds. 

I liked the rest of the post, but this doesn't add up. If it was just an attempt to 'get some product' out and only that...well, there were a few songs more or less completed already in the can. Maybe they needed some final splicing or editing or something, but they were pretty much done.

Wonderful
Wind chimes
'Fire'
Vegetables
He Gives Speeches
Our Prayer

They could have easily hastily assembled the finished product, finished up Heroes & Villains as is, then recorded the five or so other songs Smiley-smile quick-like. Would have been even quicker, in fact as half the album (rather than one song, good vibrations) would have already been recorded.

Sure the album would have been an obvious hodgepodge, patchy affair, but, hey it's product and still might have been more commercial than Smiley Smile.

I think getting product out was a primary concern of hte record label and probably the Beach Boy organization as a whole.

But I honestly think Brian deliberately set out to make a bad record. Part of him might have been sick of the material after having worked on it and the artist in him needed to move on; part of him was pissed off at elements in the band who weren't excited about it(I mean, he'd written Surf's Up! They thought it was merda--you can see where that would piss you off and bruise your ego, of which I think Brian might have had plenty of; pissed off about the record company pressure; part of him was just a little wacked out anyway. Maybe it was a joke, part of Brian's weird sense of humor; maybe it was a gigantic foder you to everybody, including the stupid fun-in-the-sun fans, who knows?

I think it's more due to an artist's obligation to finish the product. You don't release a half finished painting. If the idea was tossed around, I have a strong feeling Brian would've vetoed it.

Who knows what went through Brian head during that time? If I remember correctly, he had some sort of mental breakdown. And I think the Smiley Smile sessions were largely controlled and assembled by Carl by that point, in order to simply work with the material Brian had already written.

[Curtis Leon]

As far as I can tell-Brian ran out of time on Smile-due to a large number of factors-and that the BBs convinced him that they had to get a product out quickly as over a year had passed since Pet Sounds.  So they hastily recorded Smiley Smile to get some product out, however Brian still believed in Heroes and wanted to finish it.  I believe that he thought he had a great single-and it is pretty damn good-but I think that he over thought the thing-which many musicians do when they have too much time to play with it-it was better in Feb 67 than it was by July 67.  I think Smiley Smile other than Heroes was less about art and more about getting something in the shops.  Bruce's virtual absence-suggests that it may also have been an attempt by the group to rebuild a slightly damaged relationship with the head BB-after arguments over the previous year.  Hence-Brian's also agreeing to play Hawaii-to get back some BB spirit and the "straight" BBs decision to get a little crazy that summer-to bring the band closer together

One of the biggest problems with SMiLE is that Brian kept reworking it and tinkering it, adding sections whenever they popped into his head. For an artist who was as productive as Brian, this was a major problem. And then Van Dyke walked out because of the band, and it all fell apart. Too many reasons for why SMiLE was shelved.

I believe that he shelved it, simply because he had to. There was no way he could continue on with it.

[Ron]

To my untrained ears, Smiley Smile sounds like a passive agressive smack at the overproduced sound the group (and probably Brian) were tired of waiting for.  I think he made a lot of SMiLE with a certain amount of friends and people around that he was having some ... ehum...'good times' with, and after a while it grew a little heavy, the album was still far away from the majestic huge vision he had in his head, the other band members didn't like that everything took so long, I believe he was in a lawsuit with the record label, he was fighting with his wife, his dad, and his brother... Lots of stress, lots of work, and lots of production going into this album

So he just took a backseat, recorded some half ass tracks and that was that.  It was kind of the moment he stopped being super-productive.  I know he worked hard on stuff after that, but really to finish that album on the level he wanted to, that took an immense amount of work, which is obvious in the endless takes of H&V.  That was the moment the current version of Brian was born who doesn't always give a sh*t. 

I think there must have been a moment in his head when he said "Why am I trying so hard"... really he was working much harder than he needed to.  The stuff before this album came pretty easily, even Pet Sounds took what, 4 months?  That's not horrible for a huge, huge album... and all the earlier albums were very fast.  I think there were many many reasons he was quite ready to drop the album, I've heard people say that Sgt. Peppers kind of took the wind out of his sails, and made him feel that SMiLE was already dated before it was even released.

really a lot of speculation, we dont' know what was in the m an's head.  If you listen to SS, though, it sounds like a reaction to the overproduced sound of SMiLE. 

[Ron]

Oh, btw best exhibit is "With me tonight".  Nearly acapella, and he's what playing just single notes on an organ for the music?  That's almost as plain as him saying it outloud that he was done with the huge productions.