Brian & SMiLE

[Jim V.]

So I know this is kinda a ballsy statement to make after BWPS, but I'm gonna go out on a limb and say Brian (after the original sessions) was never incredibly impressed by what he did with SMiLE. I honestly think he made the switch to Smiley Smile because that was where he was at mentally. Those were the kind of sounding records he wanted to make at that point, and he just wasn't interested in those big productions anymore, at least after finally finishing "Heroes And Villains".

But fast forward to today, I never really hear him mention it too much or anything anymore. The only songs I've read of him speaking of recently are things like "H & V" and "Surf's Up". I think more of the reason why he did BWPS was because of his wife and manager (yeah duh, I know), and to satisfy his band and his fans. I'm not sure it was that incredibly important to him as music as it was to just get people to shut up about it. Then again, I don't really know him, so I can't say. But it just seems to me that as soon as the BWPS era ended, Brian got back out of the SMiLE mindset and went back to the 68-02 version of himself, where SMiLE was the real weird material, too weird. I think he's accepted that like "H&V" and "SU" are two of his best compositions but I doubt we'd still see him saying things like "SMiLE is a 10, Pet Sounds is a 7" or something.

I know I haven't articulated this argument very well, but I just wanted to see what the rest of you guys think. Especially those of you that may know more about where Brian is at emotionally and where he places the SMiLE material now in his heart.

[nobody is a chode]

He must know that songs like Cabinessence and Wonderful are unique and amazing though.

I wonder what a Smiley version of Cabinessence would sound like...

[buddhahat]

He must know that songs like Cabinessence and Wonderful are unique and amazing though.

I wonder what a Smiley version of Cabinessence would sound like...

 

I reckon Lil Pad is a good indication of what the quieter parts of Cabinessence would sound like. The two always sound similar to me. As for the Who Ran The Iron Horse part, heaven knows what a Smiley treatment of that would've resulted in, but I'm sure it would've been groovy.

On a related note, somebody once posted that a musician/big BB fan once did a version of Tones with the Lil Pad lyrics over the top, and two went together extremely well. I found this idea fascinating as I've since tried to sing it myself and can hear the similarities, plus I've always wondered if Lil Pad was born out of Smile somehow. Anyone know the version I'm talking about?

[Curtis Leon]

So I know this is kinda a ballsy statement to make after BWPS, but I'm gonna go out on a limb and say Brian (after the original sessions) was never incredibly impressed by what he did with SMiLE. I honestly think he made the switch to Smiley Smile because that was where he was at mentally. Those were the kind of sounding records he wanted to make at that point, and he just wasn't interested in those big productions anymore, at least after finally finishing "Heroes And Villains".

But fast forward to today, I never really hear him mention it too much or anything anymore. The only songs I've read of him speaking of recently are things like "H & V" and "Surf's Up". I think more of the reason why he did BWPS was because of his wife and manager (yeah duh, I know), and to satisfy his band and his fans. I'm not sure it was that incredibly important to him as music as it was to just get people to shut up about it. Then again, I don't really know him, so I can't say. But it just seems to me that as soon as the BWPS era ended, Brian got back out of the SMiLE mindset and went back to the 68-02 version of himself, where SMiLE was the real weird material, too weird. I think he's accepted that like "H&V" and "SU" are two of his best compositions but I doubt we'd still see him saying things like "SMiLE is a 10, Pet Sounds is a 7" or something.

I know I haven't articulated this argument very well, but I just wanted to see what the rest of you guys think. Especially those of you that may know more about where Brian is at emotionally and where he places the SMiLE material now in his heart.

I dunno. If SMiLE wasn't important in his eyes, why does he keep blocking the release of a boxset? I think a hidden reason is that he's somewhat... scared, of the original sessions. It's like if a tape of someone's mental breakdown was recorded. They definitely wouldn't want it released to the public. I've always wondered about the original wind section, though... What happened to it, for one? Wiped? Stolen? If it was stolen, how come it hasn't appeared on any bootlegs? And why would Brian wipe a piece of his biggest project?

[shelter]

And why would Brian wipe a piece of his biggest project?

I recall having read that even if Brian had wanted to, he could not have erased his own recorded material. IIRC, the tapes were property of Capitol (as they were paying for the sessions) and any engineer that would let an artist destroy or wipe master tapes would probably get in trouble with the union.

[Curtis Leon]

And why would Brian wipe a piece of his biggest project?

I recall having read that even if Brian had wanted to, he could not have erased his own recorded material. IIRC, the tapes were property of Capitol (as they were paying for the sessions) and any engineer that would let an artist destroy or wipe master tapes would probably get in trouble with the union.

I believe Brian wiped the master for The Little Girl I Once Knew... And I can hear some trace elements of a previous track in I'm Waiting For The Day. So it's not completely unreasonable.

[Ron]

So I know this is kinda a ballsy statement to make after BWPS, but I'm gonna go out on a limb and say Brian (after the original sessions) was never incredibly impressed by what he did with SMiLE. I honestly think he made the switch to Smiley Smile because that was where he was at mentally. Those were the kind of sounding records he wanted to make at that point, and he just wasn't interested in those big productions anymore, at least after finally finishing "Heroes And Villains".

But fast forward to today, I never really hear him mention it too much or anything anymore. The only songs I've read of him speaking of recently are things like "H & V" and "Surf's Up". I think more of the reason why he did BWPS was because of his wife and manager (yeah duh, I know), and to satisfy his band and his fans. I'm not sure it was that incredibly important to him as music as it was to just get people to shut up about it. Then again, I don't really know him, so I can't say. But it just seems to me that as soon as the BWPS era ended, Brian got back out of the SMiLE mindset and went back to the 68-02 version of himself, where SMiLE was the real weird material, too weird. I think he's accepted that like "H&V" and "SU" are two of his best compositions but I doubt we'd still see him saying things like "SMiLE is a 10, Pet Sounds is a 7" or something.

I know I haven't articulated this argument very well, but I just wanted to see what the rest of you guys think. Especially those of you that may know more about where Brian is at emotionally and where he places the SMiLE material now in his heart.

I agree with you.  Everytime they ask him about what he likes, or his favorite songs, or what he's proud of, etc... for instance... last week, in an interview he said that TLOS and BWRG are his crowning achievements.  Of cousre that's promo, but why not Mention Smile?  When asked what he likes to listen to, it's Rosemary Cloony or Diana Ross.  When asked what he regrets, he says taking drugs.  When asked what song he'd like to have Gershwin reimagine, it's California Girls.  I just don't think he's that into the SMilE stuff.  I think he was more into it when he was high, and he doesn't get high aymore, so he's just not as impressed with it. 

[Cam Mott]

So I know this is kinda a ballsy statement to make after BWPS, but I'm gonna go out on a limb and say Brian (after the original sessions) was never incredibly impressed by what he did with SMiLE. I honestly think he made the switch to Smiley Smile because that was where he was at mentally. Those were the kind of sounding records he wanted to make at that point, and he just wasn't interested in those big productions anymore, at least after finally finishing "Heroes And Villains".

But fast forward to today, I never really hear him mention it too much or anything anymore. The only songs I've read of him speaking of recently are things like "H & V" and "Surf's Up". I think more of the reason why he did BWPS was because of his wife and manager (yeah duh, I know), and to satisfy his band and his fans. I'm not sure it was that incredibly important to him as music as it was to just get people to shut up about it. Then again, I don't really know him, so I can't say. But it just seems to me that as soon as the BWPS era ended, Brian got back out of the SMiLE mindset and went back to the 68-02 version of himself, where SMiLE was the real weird material, too weird. I think he's accepted that like "H&V" and "SU" are two of his best compositions but I doubt we'd still see him saying things like "SMiLE is a 10, Pet Sounds is a 7" or something.

I know I haven't articulated this argument very well, but I just wanted to see what the rest of you guys think. Especially those of you that may know more about where Brian is at emotionally and where he places the SMiLE material now in his heart.

I agree with you.  Everytime they ask him about what he likes, or his favorite songs, or what he's proud of, etc... for instance... last week, in an interview he said that TLOS and BWRG are his crowning achievements.  Of cousre that's promo, but why not Mention Smile?  When asked what he likes to listen to, it's Rosemary Cloony or Diana Ross.  When asked what he regrets, he says taking drugs.  When asked what song he'd like to have Gershwin reimagine, it's California Girls.  I just don't think he's that into the SMilE stuff.  I think he was more into it when he was high, and he doesn't get high aymore, so he's just not as impressed with it. 

That's the conclusion I come to also. We want Brian to love and to have always loved SMiLE but he has made it very plain through the decades he was not really that into it beginning in 1967.

[Jason]

Well, let's remember that when Brian was doing the BWPS thing ad nauseam from late 2003 until the end of all of the touring in 2005, he was going on and on about how "Smile is my greatest work" and "Pet Sounds is a 4, Smile is a 10".

[Cam Mott]

He was into it for awhile in '66 too but when he takes his longer view, beyond what he is into at the moment, all the decades he has plainly said he wasn't that into it. SMiLE is way down his list it seems to me.

[nobody is a chode]

Has Brian ever performed Heroes and Villains with his band like the single/Smiley version?

I find the BWPS version to drag a bit. It doesn't have the exciting edits it most certainly would have had, ala Good Vibrations, if Brian had finished it in full back then.

[Andrew G. Doe]

Has Brian ever performed Heroes and Villains with his band like the single/Smiley version?

Not sure - been a while since I've watched the Radio City DVD. Anyone ?

[Mike's Beard]

I listened to Smiley today for the first time in quite a few months and have to say as much as I was enjoying the thing, when it got to track 6 and GV came on it hit me again with the force of a sledgehammer how far behind the rest of the record comes to matching it's brilliance. So I find it hard to believe that Brian chose the minimalist route for artistic reasons.

[nobody is a chode]

I listened to Smiley today for the first time in quite a few months and have to say as much as I was enjoying the thing, when it got to track 6 and GV came on it hit me again with the force of a sledgehammer how far behind the rest of the record come to matching it's brilliance. So I find it hard to believe that Brian chose the minimalist route for artistic reasons.

Good Vibes is the peak of the trip, man

little pad sets you up then WHAM good vibrations EVERYWHERE buzzing all round chuggachuggachuggachuggachugga psychedelic CELLO mystical sound goddess of the ocean and music luring you into the beyond

then back down to earth, to hawaii, with me tonight, i know you're with me tonight, on and on you go dom be do da

it fits PERFECTLY and it works to my ears, it makes GOOD VIBES sound all the better, and Smiley's tasteful unassuming scattered mind underproduced sound all the cooler

right at the end of Little Pad you have to take a huge hit of nitrous ready for good vibrations

by the time it's over you'll be coming down already, ready for With Me Tonight

see? it all makes sense

[Jason]

I think it's safe to say that if Brian didn't want to do Smiley Smile, he wouldn't have done it. PERIOD. This was 1967, way before the wifeandmanagers were in the picture. Never mind the fact that the voice heard in all the session tape count-ins and directions is Brian's. Smiley Smile was his first great "f*** you" to the band, Love You the second, and Adult/Child the third.

[Mike's Beard]

Indeed Brian was still firmly controlling the show in 1967, I just think SS turned out the way it did more because he'd rather be partying with Danny Hutton (and not spending hours in a studio for the perfect take), than because he was aiming for some big artistic statement.

[nobody is a chode]

Indeed Brian was still firmly controlling the show in 1967, I just think SS turned out the way it did more because he'd rather be partying with Danny Hutton (and not spending hours in a studio for the perfect take), than because he was aiming for some big artistic statement.

Why can't that BE the "big artistic statement"? Sgt Pepper sounds like pretentious bullshit compared to Smiley Smile. I dare say many would have thought similarly about SMiLE had Brian continued going down that road.

I like to imagine, sometimes, Smiley Smile being a prank on Paul McCartney. Imagine: Brian knows that Paul is aware of a little bit of what Brian is doing with SMiLE. He heard Brian play Wonderful supposedly and one assumes Brian showed off telling him a bit about his grand ideas for the album. So he knows Paul's over there in Brit country with AGD trying to cook something up to beat him. So Brian reaches into his bag of tricks and pulls out Smiley Smile, just to f*** with Paul's mind. Imagine: you're Paul McCartney, you just made Sgt. Pepper with George Martin and those other guys, and you're feeling pretty darn good about yourself. Then you buy Smiley Smile expecting to hear Brian's big record that he heard about. Instead he hears Vegetables, Little Pad, With Me Tonight. He's been had. Brian tripped him up. Suddenly Paul feels incredibly self-conscious. He made this huge record thinking he had to compete with Brian's huge record, and instead Brian put out a whisper saying "Boo!" and it snuck right up on Paul. Now Paul feels like the kid at the science fair who got his dad to help and all the teachers know it.

[Menace Wilson]

When you go out on a limb, it's a vulnerable place to be.    

I think Brian spent the better part of his life second-guessing himself concerning Smile because it was so ambitious.  I think he thinks he showed his ass to the world.  A symphony to God?!?  Dad and Mike were right about me...who the hell did I think I was?  
  
What's that line in Smiley Smile?  "Don't think you're God"?  And then soon afterwards Brian was writing songs about puttering around the house, doing nothing, falling asleep, etc....

[nobody is a chode]

When you go out on a limb, it's a vulnerable place to be.    

I think Brian spent the better part of his life second-guessing himself concerning Smile because it was so ambitious.  I think he thinks he showed his ass to the world.  A symphony to God?!?  Dad and Mike were right about me...who the hell did I think I was?  
  
What's that line in Smiley Smile?  "Don't think you're God"?  And then soon afterwards Brian was writing songs about puttering around the house, doing nothing, falling asleep, etc....

Maybe those songs about puttering around the house, doing nothing, and falling asleep ARE Brian's spiritual music. Sort of like Zen monks living simply, dig? We eat, we sleep, we get dressed. Brian's post-SMiLE music is VERY Zen... Imagine "I Went To Sleep" played in a soundtrack to a film about Buddha sitting under his tree. See? All makes sense in my mind.

[rab2591]

Indeed Brian was still firmly controlling the show in 1967, I just think SS turned out the way it did more because he'd rather be partying with Danny Hutton (and not spending hours in a studio for the perfect take), than because he was aiming for some big artistic statement.

Why can't that BE the "big artistic statement"? Sgt Pepper sounds like pretentious bullmerda compared to Smiley Smile. I dare say many would have thought similarly about SMiLE had Brian continued going down that road.

No, Sgt. Pepper, compared to Smiley Smile, sounds like an album that has been properly thought out, recorded, and produced (nothing pretentious about that)...Smiley Smile sounds like an album that was recorded in someones bedroom and swimming pool...

[nobody is a chode]

Indeed Brian was still firmly controlling the show in 1967, I just think SS turned out the way it did more because he'd rather be partying with Danny Hutton (and not spending hours in a studio for the perfect take), than because he was aiming for some big artistic statement.

Why can't that BE the "big artistic statement"? Sgt Pepper sounds like pretentious bullmerda compared to Smiley Smile. I dare say many would have thought similarly about SMiLE had Brian continued going down that road.

No, Sgt. Pepper, compared to Smiley Smile, sounds like an album that has been properly thought out, recorded, and produced (nothing pretentious about that)...Smiley Smile sounds like an album that was recorded in someones bedroom and swimming pool...

What was it Brian said about what he learned on LSD? Something like - "I can't tell you what I learned, you either know it or you don't" ??

Same thing here man. Bedrooms and swimming pools are like paper covering the rock that is Sgt Pepper's indulgence.

[SmileySam]

I remember listening to Smiley Smile the other day, and when I got to track 6 (Good Vibrations), I suddenly imagined the songs on the album as people, and that Good Vibrations came on and said "Look at me! I'm Good Vibrations!....Wait, who the hell are these guys?"

[Menace Wilson]

Maybe those songs about puttering around the house, doing nothing, and falling asleep ARE Brian's spiritual music. Sort of like Zen monks living simply, dig? We eat, we sleep, we get dressed. Brian's post-SMiLE music is VERY Zen... Imagine "I Went To Sleep" played in a soundtrack to a film about Buddha sitting under his tree. See? All makes sense in my mind.

Don't get me wrong, the Friends/I Went To Sleep stuff is one of my favorite BBs eras. 

[Ron]

Yeah, the moment when GV starts on that album, it really drives home Carl's "Bunt/Grandslam" comment. 

[Jon Stebbins]

Sgt. Pepper's only problem is over saturation and mass acceptance and decades of adoration. Because of that people with limited perspective sometime feel the need to take a contrary point of view because they feel hip or more original doing that. In the context of summer 1967 Sgt. Peppers was like a cultural orgasm. It blew everything away. In its moment it was the most progressive artistic statement by a mainstream artist that also had an equal commercial impact. There never has been an avante-garde household item with the penetration of Sgt. Peppers. Because of its hugeness of course there is backlash. Smiley Smiley is a tiny blip in comparison. What I like about Smiley is how lame it is...funny...or even pathetic. Yes moments of beauty and the singles are great. The album is quirky in a wonderful, original way...its way more daring than Pepper or most anything. But i doubt that was exactly intentional. Its like Brian had a brain fart in the middle of a brilliant hallucination and then he pooped his pants a little and went into a laughing fit that ended up with him crying in a fetal position. Smiley Smile is kind of retarded...but that doesn't mean its bad...and for many of us that derailed quality is what makes it good. As a 1967 statement nobody...and I mean nobody cared. It had no impact. The Beach Boys and Brian were in free fall as cultural icons and Smiley just made them fall a little faster. Sgt. Peppers was the opposite of that. It solidified and even raised The Beatles standing across the board, artistically, commercially, it made them hipper and it made them more mainstream...all in one fell swoop. Smiley Smile...ummm...it was so bad then, that its good now.