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Author Topic: Recording of BWRG - analog or digital?  (Read 3878 times)
rab2591
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« on: August 10, 2010, 08:41:03 AM »

Was Brian Wilson Reimagines Gershwin recorded digitally or on analog tape?

I think the obvious answer is digitally, but I could be mistaken.

I ask because I feel that every recent BW solo album is missing that vintage analog sound...all his solo albums sound way too clean.
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« Reply #1 on: August 10, 2010, 09:42:08 AM »

From what I can tell from the documentary video they were recording on analog boards.
They probably transferred the recordings to digital for mixing (though I could be wrong on that) just my guess
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« Reply #2 on: August 10, 2010, 10:30:13 AM »

From what I can tell from the documentary video they were recording on analog boards.
They probably transferred the recordings to digital for mixing (though I could be wrong on that) just my guess

They were recording at Oceanway - I think the last time they used an analog board there was in 1979. But, being the great guy I am, I'll check.
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« Reply #3 on: August 10, 2010, 12:47:57 PM »

BWRG is an all-digital recording - Oceanway doesn't have analog consoles.
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« Reply #4 on: August 10, 2010, 01:13:11 PM »

BWRG is an all-digital recording - Oceanway doesn't have analog consoles.

Thanks.

I wonder why Brian opted for digital...cost, yes, and good luck finding a good studio that still uses analog (maybe there are some in LA, i don't know). But jeesh, this is a Gershwin/BWilson collaboration!...it deserves better than Digital.

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« Reply #5 on: August 10, 2010, 01:32:15 PM »

Nothing wrong with digital. Fabulous sounding recordings have been made with it. Just has to do with how you mix and master it.
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« Reply #6 on: August 10, 2010, 01:55:01 PM »

I ask because I feel that every recent BW solo album is missing that vintage analog sound...all his solo albums sound way too clean.

Have you heard BWPS on vinyl?  Don Grossinger used an analog tape copy provided by Mark Linett and it sounds amazing.  Does anyone know who mastered the LP version of BWRG?
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rab2591
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« Reply #7 on: August 10, 2010, 02:18:32 PM »

Nothing wrong with digital. Fabulous sounding recordings have been made with it. Just has to do with how you mix and master it.

Eh, I agree that it can still sound fabulous (BWPS sounds super crisp), but it lacks the depth of analog.

I guess I just miss the Spector-ish sound that Brian's Beach Boys work is known for.

I ask because I feel that every recent BW solo album is missing that vintage analog sound...all his solo albums sound way too clean.

Have you heard BWPS on vinyl?  Don Grossinger used an analog tape copy provided by Mark Linett and it sounds amazing.  Does anyone know who mastered the LP version of BWRG?

No but I want to! My next big purchase will be a good turntable (anyone have any suggestions as to what kind? I'm on a budget so I'm willing to lay out $200-$500), my first two albums will be Pet Sounds and Summer Days....I will check out BWPS on vinyl though; I hear BWPS and TLOS sound wonderful on it.
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« Reply #8 on: August 10, 2010, 04:23:54 PM »

I've got a question, I'm just curious, not trying to bust your balls.  Why all the digital/analog talk when you don't have anything analog to play it on? 
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« Reply #9 on: August 10, 2010, 06:07:19 PM »

I've got a question, I'm just curious, not trying to bust your balls.  Why all the digital/analog talk when you don't have anything analog to play it on? 

I think its definitely true that an Analog recording might sound warmer than a digital recording, even played on a CD (although if you're talking mp3s...old casettes from the 80s sound better than mp3s...)

That said, I think a lot of what people attribute to analog equipment, especially with the BBs, is really due to other factors, for example the tape decay/mellowing that occurs over time, and more significantly, Brian's method of recording, which involved lots and lots of instruments in a big room, as apposed to individual tracks layered on top of each other. 

And I bet that when those tapes were first played back in the studio in the 60s, before being pressed to vinyl or put in bins for 30 years, they sounded crystal clear!  This is just totally conjecture, of course, because I wasn't there. 
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rab2591
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« Reply #10 on: August 10, 2010, 06:47:56 PM »

I've got a question, I'm just curious, not trying to bust your balls.  Why all the digital/analog talk when you don't have anything analog to play it on? 

I honestly don't think the type of system you play it on matters (too much)....I mean, vinyl will make it sound warmer, but the overall sound does not change whether or not it is put on CD or vinyl....there will still be great reverb, heavy bass, and brilliant depth on my CD copy of Pet Sounds.

I've got a question, I'm just curious, not trying to bust your balls.  Why all the digital/analog talk when you don't have anything analog to play it on? 

I think its definitely true that an Analog recording might sound warmer than a digital recording, even played on a CD (although if you're talking mp3s...old casettes from the 80s sound better than mp3s...)

That said, I think a lot of what people attribute to analog equipment, especially with the BBs, is really due to other factors, for example the tape decay/mellowing that occurs over time, and more significantly, Brian's method of recording, which involved lots and lots of instruments in a big room, as apposed to individual tracks layered on top of each other. 

And I bet that when those tapes were first played back in the studio in the 60s, before being pressed to vinyl or put in bins for 30 years, they sounded crystal clear!  This is just totally conjecture, of course, because I wasn't there.


Very true. I believe it to be a combination of factors: analog tape, and as you said: Brian's method of recording. I think the instruments all playing together (and the layout of the room) is the main reason for depth and warmth....but analog does add a lot.
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God must’ve smiled the day Brian Wilson was born!

"ragegasm" - /rāj • ga-zəm/ : a logical mental response produced when your favorite band becomes remotely associated with the bro-country genre.

Ever want to hear some Beach Boys songs mashed up together like The Beatles' 'LOVE' album? Check out my mix!
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« Reply #11 on: August 11, 2010, 01:37:15 AM »

Nothing wrong with digital. Fabulous sounding recordings have been made with it. Just has to do with how you mix and master it.

Eh, I agree that it can still sound fabulous (BWPS sounds super crisp), but it lacks the depth of analog.

I guess I just miss the Spector-ish sound that Brian's Beach Boys work is known for.

I ask because I feel that every recent BW solo album is missing that vintage analog sound...all his solo albums sound way too clean.

Have you heard BWPS on vinyl?  Don Grossinger used an analog tape copy provided by Mark Linett and it sounds amazing.  Does anyone know who mastered the LP version of BWRG?

No but I want to! My next big purchase will be a good turntable (anyone have any suggestions as to what kind? I'm on a budget so I'm willing to lay out $200-$500), my first two albums will be Pet Sounds and Summer Days....I will check out BWPS on vinyl though; I hear BWPS and TLOS sound wonderful on it.


I myself have a Dual 505-4, a classy turntable in the old German style, with an Ortofon OMB-20 cartridge. It is truly wonderful, semi-automatic (so if you're away, it just will left the arm and stop turning the platter, very efficient and safe). If I am right it still sells new for around € 450 or so, and herein lies the problem: in the U.S. it might be considerably pricier, don't really know why (shipping can't be responsible for the price tags I sometimes saw). But here's an idea: I got it second hand, in extraordinarily fine shape, for a mere 80 Euros.

The best new option IMHO for you would be the Rega Planar 1 or Planar 2. It got rave reviews all over the world, it's British, and it looks very good, in a minimalistic style. So it fits in any type of room style. Prices are around € 300 - 500, I think. If I would need to buy one new, now, I'd go for a Rega myself. Thing is: it might be considerably more 'basic' in features. So be aware of how you'd best like to operate your machine.

Also good, and cheaper than the Rega: Pro-Ject, manufactured in Czechia (or Slowakija), and Austria, I think. Stylish, but also basic.

With the above, you can't go wrong IMHO.

There is one final condition that you must not overlook: does your amp or receiver have an input marked 'phono'? If not, chances are that you will have to purchase a separate phono-preamp, to turn the signal from the phono cartridge into a proper RIAA-corrected current. I myself own the Pro-ject Phono Box Mk II (around € 80), but the NAD PP-2 is equally fine, and priced about the same. Look if you're going to buy a so-called moving-magnet type of cartridge, or a moving-coil, because then you will know which input of the phono-preamp must be used. Moving-magnet is the ubiquitous cartridge type, and cheaper, moving-coil is pricier and more rare; the latter generally is seen as the better option, although I am very satisfied with the former (abbreviations: MM and MC).

If I get to know more, I will update this post.
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« Reply #12 on: August 11, 2010, 01:44:04 AM »

Oh, and I forgot the Thorens brand, but this one must be approached with caution nowadays. Until around 2000, Thorens was very highly respected, but with the advent of CD and with the birth of new competing companies, it got into trouble. Newer Thorens models sometimes are really nothing but very cheap Duals in another guise; they're not really bad, but way overpriced, in the hope that the brand name sells anyway.

An old Thorens is a delight, but as the years go by, they're increasingly harder to find in an acceptable condition. Also, the old models have a bulky build, which may not be to everyone's taste anymore (the so-called WAF, Wife Acceptance Factor). The TD-160 was good, as was the TD-166 Mk II. But often you might have to go on a search for a new belt, a new platter mat, at extra costs. I'd rather spend that money on BBs vinyl. Last remark: many people don't know that TD stands for: Tourne-disque, which is French for: record player.
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« Reply #13 on: August 11, 2010, 04:19:27 AM »


Eh, I agree that it can still sound fabulous (BWPS sounds super crisp), but it lacks the depth of analog.

It depends on whose hands it's in. It doesn't lack the depth of analog in any way. The classic sound is gone for a great number of reasons, none to strictly do with recording in digital.
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« Reply #14 on: August 11, 2010, 04:36:42 AM »


Eh, I agree that it can still sound fabulous (BWPS sounds super crisp), but it lacks the depth of analog.

It depends on whose hands it's in. It doesn't lack the depth of analog in any way. The classic sound is gone for a great number of reasons, none to strictly do with recording in digital.

I feel myself somewhere in the middle here. As a lover of dub reggae, I find digital in this sector lacking; the bass sounds slightly unreal, and the top end too shrill. I'd say that the natural limitations of analogue suit the limitations of our hearing very well. My verdict is not based on a few records, but many, of which I heard the analogue as well as the (remastered) version. I must add that for young people digital is the format they grew up with; perhaps it's a yardstick that can't be made 'undone' then anymore.
Also: Brian and the BBs never were into extreme bass and a very high top end. As far as I know, all their recordings are at their maximum in a pleasant middle range of the frequency spectrum, which really adds to the beautiful feeling of bliss and 'density' of Pet Sounds.
Of course there was the debate about the absolute cut-off point of CD at 20 kHz. More than a few researchers claimed that that was a problem, inasmuch that there are harmonic overtones (hope I phrase this right, or mr. Linett may correct!) that we cannot really hear (most of us don't even hear properly in the 12 to 15 kHz range), but which interfere with the part of the audio spectrum we do hear properly, and are therefore needed.

Finally: I really regret that DVD-A and SACD did not make it in the broad market. All reports say that they sound considerably better than standard Red Book CD, notably SACD.
And I try to find the CD-player that sounds most like my old but well-kept LPs. There are many beauties on the 2nd hand market, available for beer money; people sell them because they want a convenient all-in-one player. So I got a Marantz CD5000 recently, which has the famous digital-to-analogue converter TDA1549 by Philips. Still have to audition it. For the moment, I have a NAD Monitor 5000 connected (hah! It was offered for free on a first-come basis on a Dutch auction site...), which sounds marvelous. Age is no item here, really.
It's a great hobby, as long as you keep an eye on your money. And it can be done almost for free, as the above shows. And especially with CD, the so-called high end material is of relatively little extra merit, compared to a stock player. Lots of myth-mongering going on.

Two glasses of wine will improve the perceived sound quality much more than an extra investment of $ 500, that's my take on things.

For more on CD, go to: www.lampizator.eu, a knowledgeable and extremely funny site.
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« Reply #15 on: August 11, 2010, 06:29:59 AM »

I play all my albums on an old "Columbia 360" record player from the 50's.  Sounds great, lol.  It has it's own speakers, a nice little wooden cabinet with a lid, sits on a desk.  I need to rebuild the amp, sometimes the tubes don't fire up.
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« Reply #16 on: August 11, 2010, 07:06:13 AM »

While I enjoy vinyl, and have a collection of over a thousand lps, I use  basic $150.00 US dollar turntables bought in a box store.  (I have two listening rooms).   Problem is I have too many records in too many different states of wear.  I have new vinyl of Brian et al, and I have Motown and Dion from the early 60's on original pressings.  Dirt and various materials from the old end up contaminating the new.  So eventually you lose sound quality on the records.  This is the trouble with vinyl and always has been.  Even those who fastidiously clean the stylus, the vinyl, and carefully store records will tell you that wear and dirt are inevitable.

This was to have been the benefit of the CD.  It was thought to be an indelible recording.  And in many ways it is.  So, in the end, the CD will allow you to listen as often as you want without loss of sound quality.  And CD recordings have improved over the past two decades to the point that in many ways they are now superior to analog vinyl.  Of course, I have to admit that my hearing probably equals that of Brian Wilson....almost deaf in one ear and can't really "hear" stereo.
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« Reply #17 on: August 11, 2010, 07:28:05 AM »

While I enjoy vinyl, and have a collection of over a thousand lps, I use  basic $150.00 US dollar turntables bought in a box store.  (I have two listening rooms).   Problem is I have too many records in too many different states of wear.  I have new vinyl of Brian et al, and I have Motown and Dion from the early 60's on original pressings.  Dirt and various materials from the old end up contaminating the new.  So eventually you lose sound quality on the records.  This is the trouble with vinyl and always has been.  Even those who fastidiously clean the stylus, the vinyl, and carefully store records will tell you that wear and dirt are inevitable.

This was to have been the benefit of the CD.  It was thought to be an indelible recording.  And in many ways it is.  So, in the end, the CD will allow you to listen as often as you want without loss of sound quality.  And CD recordings have improved over the past two decades to the point that in many ways they are now superior to analog vinyl.  Of course, I have to admit that my hearing probably equals that of Brian Wilson....almost deaf in one ear and can't really "hear" stereo.

True dat. Vinyl gets wear from playing, that's part of the deal and can't be avoided. Well, with authentic Jamaican pressings of reggae (so called pre-releases, and others are 'dub plates') I always had to laugh. For U.S. and Euro standards, these were very often unacceptable, but as a fan, you overcame this, and even learned to appreciate the hiss and scratches as signs of authenticity. The best metaphor I can think of: imaging a normal stereo album being played in a kitchen, where at the same time a frying pan is on top heat, with french fries being made in the fat. That is how Jamaican pressings used to sound. From someone who visited JA in the '80s, I learned that the reason is this: the record factories in the country use to put 50 or 100 12 inch platters on a vertical stack, with a pen keeping the albums in place through the middle hole. The albums are stacked when they're still too hot, outside. Add to that the blistering sun in Jamaica, the dust and insects - you get the picture.

All of which does surely not hamper the market for old and true JA vinyl. Hundreds of dollars are offered for vintage Burning Spear, Bob Marley, and Horace Andy records; and since the Lee Perry and Gregory Isaacs catalogues are so vast and so complicated (there isn't any complete discography for them, as far as I know), this is really a wonderful hobby to devote some time to.
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« Reply #18 on: August 11, 2010, 07:39:55 AM »

True dat. Vinyl gets wear from playing, that's part of the deal and can't be avoided.

Nice to see a vinyl junkie actually admit that, cause the inescapable fact is, every time you play an album - no matter how high-end your equipment - you're scratching it and degrading the sound. A lot of the so-called 'warmth' of vinyl is down to the sub-sonic rumble of the stylus tracking the groove. Granted, early CD transfers were deplorable as more often than not album masters were used, but a properly recorded digital album can sound just as good as any vinyl, and is the original multitracks of an old record can be accessed, some 60's material comes up sounding like they heard it in the booth during the session. A lot of the attachment to vinyl is empirical: I'm sure Edison said exactly the same sort of thing to Berliner.
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« Reply #19 on: August 11, 2010, 08:14:13 AM »

True dat. Vinyl gets wear from playing, that's part of the deal and can't be avoided.

Nice to see a vinyl junkie actually admit that, cause the inescapable fact is, every time you play an album - no matter how high-end your equipment - you're scratching it and degrading the sound. A lot of the so-called 'warmth' of vinyl is down to the sub-sonic rumble of the stylus tracking the groove. Granted, early CD transfers were deplorable as more often than not album masters were used, but a properly recorded digital album can sound just as good as any vinyl, and is the original multitracks of an old record can be accessed, some 60's material comes up sounding like they heard it in the booth during the session. A lot of the attachment to vinyl is empirical: I'm sure Edison said exactly the same sort of thing to Berliner.

Thanks, AGD. If I'm right, during playing, the exact spot where the needle tip contacts the LP gets quite hot, which plays a part in the decay of the pressing. Perhaps there are many tiny sources of distortion in vinyl that participate in the 'warmth' you describe. I recall the, what we Dutch call, 'doordrukken van de master', the effect that you can hear a very, very low volume of a track starting just prior to the actual real beginning of that same track (esp. with headphones). Perhaps the RIAA correction of the pure needle signal plays a part of its own.

With 'empirical', don't you mean: 'emotional'? For me that rings true at any rate: the smell of a new sleeve and a new LP, the large size of the sleeve design, the division in two sides, the fact that you actually have to lift the tone arm just above a track you want to hear, and then touching the tip of the lift itself, seeing the arm slowly go down, ah, wonderful. It's a ritual.
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« Reply #20 on: August 11, 2010, 01:39:57 PM »

Thanks to all who responded!

I'll look into the turntable recommendations - I can't wait to get one. I'm also considering a turntable with a USB hookup for converting some old records my friend has - but that isn't a pressing issue so I'll probably end up getting one of those recommended on this thread. Thanks again!
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« Reply #21 on: August 11, 2010, 03:59:19 PM »

Vinyl sounds different from digital, even from the same mastertape.  Vinyl has the advantage over CD in warmth, "smoothness," soundstaging, presence, and the sense of "air" around the instruments and vocals (however, whether these qualities will be perceived at all will depend on how the master was recorded and engineered).  Digital has the advantage in resolution of detail and in dynamic range - bass no longer needs to be "rounded off" or "shaved" to prevent the stylus from jumping.  Good digital mastering (particularly with SACD or DVD-A) on a good CD player can come very close to matching analogue in the categories analogue does best and surpassing analogue on the detail and dynamic range fronts.
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« Reply #22 on: August 11, 2010, 05:47:04 PM »

Vinyl sounds different from digital, even from the same mastertape.  Vinyl has the advantage over CD in warmth, "smoothness," soundstaging, presence, and the sense of "air" around the instruments and vocals (however, whether these qualities will be perceived at all will depend on how the master was recorded and engineered).  Digital has the advantage in resolution of detail and in dynamic range - bass no longer needs to be "rounded off" or "shaved" to prevent the stylus from jumping.  Good digital mastering (particularly with SACD or DVD-A) on a good CD player can come very close to matching analogue in the categories analogue does best and surpassing analogue on the detail and dynamic range fronts.

I agree on the digital front.  I think the real advantage of analog isn't that it's inherently better, but that often vinyl pressings are better (I should say different) because of the way they were mastered/pressed.  For example, the "wall of sound" style has gone out of fashion, and so a lot of beautifully remastered CDs of classic albums really change the feel, making it clearer, separating out the instruments a bit more, sort of thinning out and modernizing the sound.  I don't know how they do this, some records are just remastered, others remixed, refiddled, rethises and thated, but a good example of this is Bruce Springsteen's Born to Run.  The wall of soundness comes across much better on the vinyl.  As things are remastered to modern tastes, things that made a record special can get lost.

On the subject of USB drive in your turntable...if you don't end up getting this, you'll still be able to do a decent rip by running a $5 chord from your stereo to your computer input.  It won't sound great, but it'll do the job for an mp3 player, etc. 
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« Reply #23 on: August 11, 2010, 08:26:50 PM »

I downloaded a remastered version of the Corsair's "Smokey  Places".  You wanna talk about ruining a song.  It cleaned up the little doowop part that's all through it, the original was really muddy... or smokey.  i'd much rather have the low-fi version they usually play on the radio, lol.
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« Reply #24 on: August 11, 2010, 10:47:39 PM »

BWRG is an all-digital recording - Oceanway doesn't have analog consoles.



In fact Oceanway has nothing but analog consoles......and we recorded the album on one or rather several analog consoles.  The album was recorded to Pro-tools  hi-res digital 88.2 khz/ 24 bit. While it would be great to record to analog tape, it really isn't practical for a project like this with so many vocals and instruments.

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