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Author Topic: The Beach Boys '74-'76  (Read 13572 times)
jabba2
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« Reply #25 on: February 24, 2006, 11:13:23 AM »

Tho book Heroes and Villians goes in-depth about this period. Al and Mike formed an alliance and were able to influence Brian to have a majority in the bands direction, a 3-2 vote was needed to make band decisions around that time. And Brian always voted with Mike and Al-somewhat influenced by Mike Love's cousin who looked after him at Brians house 24 hours a day. This arrangement came to a boiling point when Mike wouldnt allow Brian off a plane to hang out with Dennis and Carl. They all came out and argued, i think that might be when someone beat up Carl which offended Al alot, and the Love Alliance weaked a bit after that.

Remember, Mike Love's family was firmly entrenched with the business side of the Beach Boys at the time.
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« Reply #26 on: February 24, 2006, 11:21:53 AM »

Well, there's that  boot of that  LA Light Album tour show where Mike bitches the audience out.....  but listening to Mike's original material from the period and it's obvious that he liked the old formula.
What??  Shocked Shocked
The audience was apparently unwilling to 'chicken dance' with him.  Smiley
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« Reply #27 on: February 24, 2006, 12:02:05 PM »

For years we believed that Surf's Up had no Dennis tracks because Mike, Al and Bruce wanted more space after Sunflower... Now we know it that Dennis had a fight with Carl and withdrew his tracks from the album. I had read a few times that the "Bamboo" project started to die when the band moved two of its tracks to the LA Album against Dennis will... Now we know Dennis offered the tracks to the band and nobody twisted his arm.

I'm not saying that Mike and Al will come clean from every shady situation, but maybe we need some answers:

- why didn't Carl finish HIS tracks in '74: Good Timin' and Angel Come Home. (I think there was a sketchy version of ACH at the time ??)

- Were Dennis new songs (River Song, Rainbows, another one? POB?) refused by the band for the recording of "15 Big Ones" or had he already decided that his material would be exclusively destined for solo enterprises? 

- Why didn't Carl have a track in "15 Big Ones", if all he had to do was finishing "Good Timin'"? Were any of his songs or tracks rejected by vote?

Yeah, I agree that there was something very wrong with the band between '73 and '78 - LA Album was a kind of "let's try to do things right again" album - and by '77 there were definetly two separate camps. But what happened between '74-'76 era and the "15 Big Ones" disaster still needs some answers IMO.

EDIT: I checked and tehre wasn't a sketchy version of "Angel Come Home" in '74, I was making a confusion with "Love Surrounds Me". But I must ask, six years after "Trader" and eight after "Long Promised Road" and "Feel Flows", and the best Carl could bring to the table was "Angel Come Home", "Goin' South" and "Full Sail"?
« Last Edit: February 24, 2006, 02:00:15 PM by Dancing Bear » Logged

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Cam Mott
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« Reply #28 on: February 24, 2006, 01:24:38 PM »

I agree with Cam.


Oh yeah! Well....but...I....you...............whhaaa? [confused, head between knees, paper bag breathing]
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« Reply #29 on: February 24, 2006, 01:26:41 PM »

I'll probably end up discussing Carl later, but for now, just Dennis.

Dennis was not happy during the recording of the Surf's Up album. Dennis was not happy with the decisions that were made concerning 15 Big Ones.  Dennis was a major participant in "the fight" in September 1977.  Dennis refused to contribute to the MIU sessions, and then publicly criticized the album. When certain songs from the L.A. (Light Album) were played in concert, Dennis would walk off the stage. Dennis wasn't around for the sessions for Keepin' The Summer Alive. Something probably bothered him there.

If the rifts inside the Beach Boys were so bad, WHY DIDN'T HE JUST LEAVE THE GROUP!

Some people will defend him and say that his positions were correct. But either you're with the group or you're against the group. If you can't support the group, get the heck out. During that period of time, I see very few positive contributions that Dennis made to the Beach Boys.

And I love Dennis' music, by the way...



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Jeff Mason
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« Reply #30 on: February 24, 2006, 01:34:27 PM »

I agree with Cam.


Oh yeah! Well....but...I....you...............whhaaa? [confused, head between knees, paper bag breathing]

Cam, you know that we love you, man...
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« Reply #31 on: February 24, 2006, 02:13:22 PM »

Quote
Some people will defend him and say that his positions were correct. But either you're with the group or you're against the group. If you can't support the group, get the heck out. During that period of time, I see very few positive contributions that Dennis made to the Beach Boys.


Is that George W's opinion?

I think Dennis had a love/hate relationship with the band. The Dennis you see in Knebworth doesn't look like he's hates the band.

And Dennis saved L.A. (Light Album) from being a total snoozefest.  That's contribution enough.






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Cam Mott
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« Reply #32 on: February 24, 2006, 02:30:57 PM »

Except that the "new" music was either old stuff (Al's song) or else was a contrived attempt to re-live the oldies style ("It's OK", "Everyone's In Love With You").  Carl and Dennis both had material available but it was not on the album.  Based upon their panning of their own album in Newsweek that year, I would guess that they had lost control of the band's direction.  Dennis said it was a mistake having Brian put in charge and that the album had no connection with where he was artistically.

I guess they weren't supportive enough of Brian and his muse. Let's hate them.

There definitely was an axis in 1976.  The only question was how far back it was before it formed.

Other evidence:

-- Carl quit the band over its reliance on oldies in 1981.

My understanding is Carl quit because he felt the group wasn't interested enough in practicing, not over oldies.  Wasn't one of his explanatory quotes something about coming back when the present feels like the past?

-- Dennis made a whole solo album of progressive material that could have been offered to the band.

But wasn't, an unusual way to get new stuff out on a BBs' album.  I see where Dennis and Carl were in oppostion to Brian over oldies on a particular album but not oldies in principal, I don't see how it constitutes an axis.  None of the Boys, including Brian, seem overly committed to oldies on even 15BO and there are none on LY. I have to think it was a strategy on Brian's part in reaction to the market at the time and it worked it seems to me.  More people heard the new material on 15BO than heard the new material on LY or C&TP, SU, H, 20/20, SF et al [probably].

-- Dennis would not even participate in the MIU sessions, and Carl only provided a few vocals here and there.

Are those oldie albums?

It is very optimistic to think that Dennis and Carl fully supported the oldies turn.  It is also fairly romantic to think that Mike Love fully supported the progressive direction in the early 70's, taken in large part only to try to connect with a hip audience.  Once a guaranteed audience was there, Mike never once showed any interest in the progressive music.

I just don't see it this way. I don't see Carl and Dennis being anti-oldie and I don't see Brian, Mike and Al [or Bruce] as being anti-progressive, it doesn't seem to be an issue. To me it seems no was overly happy with the oldies of 15BO, Dennis and Carl went outside and bitched about it publicly, but their issues don't seem to be that the songs were oldies per se and they end up supporting Brian by singing etc. even though they had issues.  Mike, Al and Bruce seem to have worked on their issues with it quitly on the inside, fiddling and shelving remixes, contributing new songs, etc. but also ended up supporting Brian with the aforementioned and by voting to go with Brian's way even though they had issues with it.
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« Reply #33 on: February 24, 2006, 03:52:29 PM »


I think Dennis had a love/hate relationship with the band. The Dennis you see in Knebworth doesn't look like he's hates the band.

And Dennis saved L.A. (Light Album) from being a total snoozefest.  That's contribution enough.








Rob, I think Dennis loved the praise, adulation, money, girls, and being Brian (musical genius) Wilson's brother. I think he hated almost everything else about the Beach Boys.

And yes, Rob, Dennis does look happy at Knebworth. You don't think that's because there was a camera filming him do you? Or because of other substances?

I also like Dennis' material on L.A. Too bad he couldn't be supportive of his other bandmates' material, regardless of how "worthy" he felt it was.
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Jeff Mason
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« Reply #34 on: February 24, 2006, 04:38:17 PM »

I see what our problem here is.  Cam is taking me literally when I say "oldie" -- as in covers or rehashing songs as they exactly were in the 60's (i.e. their own hits).  I am not meaning that at all.  I would call "It's OK" an oldie-type of a song, or much of MIU ("Kona Coast" anyone?).  I mean a blatant attempt to recycle the sound and content of the early-to-mid 60's music of the Beach Boys without any attempt at maturity or recognition that they aren't teenagers anymore (best example -- what are men in their 40's doing singing a song called "Still Crusin'"? ).  When I say that Dennis and Carl opposed the new direction I mean that they were trying to make music that didn't depend upon the group's past identity but sought to grow up, to express the life they lived at that time, not what they did 20 years before.  Holland and Surf's Up are classic examples; the Beach Boys could have made a great career out of environmental consciousness (esp given Mike and Al's later leanings) if they had just been willing to pursue those ventures and continue seeking lyricists who could make it work.  Instead, you get albums like MIU which churn up cliche after cliche (or cover after cover). And that is what galled Carl and Dennis.

Cam, I have never been a "let's support Brian at all costs" person, and I think that Brian should have listened better to the concerns of the band over Smile, so don't throw that one in my face.  I think that Mike and Carl had valid issues that Brian for whatever reason couldn't handle during the Smile era (I just think that they DID oppose him).  There are no villains here nor am I passing judgment.  I am just trying to account for the music.  I see two brothers who come from a family where loyalty is treasured above all, who have always maintained that well, suddenly rip on their brother's work in the media.  And you are right, they also probably remixed Brian's work when he wasn't around.  No judgment intended, but I do think that Carl and Dennis didn't want the band to become a fun'n'sun band and Brian was about to kill any chance that they had to continue on with 15 Big Ones.


Carl did have issues with the band for its lack of practice and wanted that tightened up.  No question.  He wanted the band to take the music seriously again.  But part of that was a variety of music, a willingness to play some of the more obscure music as well as the obvious hits.  Carl didn't want to spend night after night playing the same song list over and over, which is probably why no one was practicing -- that would get dull quickly.


You can't use the sales of 15BO to prove anything IMO.  Yes the album sold and people played it....once.  Notice how many people have rushed out to get the same album on CD?  Or how easy it is to find that at a used record store, possibly the easiest original BB album to find?  No one really liked the album.  Because Brian did a poor job on it, because he wasn't committed or ready.  Love You is a different animal and you are correct to remove it from the fun'n'sun stream (which is probably why Carl and Dennis so willingly embraced it), but by that time the damage to the group's soul was a cancer and nothing was going to cure it I think.

Carl was willing to be supportive to a degree by singing, but that's all I hear -- none of the Carl that you hear on Surf's Up can be found on MIU save the occasional passionless lead.  Dennis is another story.  NO WAY he supported Brian and the band by doing ANYTHING on MIU or KTSA, and he only did stuff for Carl on LA.  But that's as much Carl as diplomat as anything. 

Think of it like this, Cam -- you have heard the albums.  Do you honestly not hear the break in continuity in those albums?  And do you think that the band all agreed happily to go down the retread path?  Especially given what we know about the blowouts of 77 and 78?
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Sheriff John Stone
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« Reply #35 on: February 24, 2006, 05:58:12 PM »

 

Think of it like this, Cam -- you have heard the albums.  Do you honestly not hear the break in continuity in those albums?  And do you think that the band all agreed happily to go down the retread path?  Especially given what we know about the blowouts of 77 and 78?

Jeff, I'm not Cam, but I would like to respond to your post.

First, I AGREE with you that the Beach Boys did break the continuity in their 1970's albums.

I noticed in several of your posts on other threads that you think rather highly of the Beach Boys' material from 1968-1973. BUT I DON'T THINK THE BEACH BOYS DID. I think in 1974, the Beach Boys considered their recordings during that period as failures, or at least disappointments.

The Beach Boys hung in there with Brian on Smiley Smile and Wild Honey, but after Friends stiffed, I think they were ready to move ahead to more adventurous ground. Actually, the group was going bankrupt. We love Sunflower today, but remember, in 1969, it was rejected by the record company, and was their worst selling album to date. Surf's Up sold better, but had no Dennis and had to be "saved" by the title track. Carl & The Passions was a critical and commercial failure, and you could tell the Beach Boys were "reaching" with the additions of Chaplin & Fataar. Did anybody rave about their songs? Holland was another album rejected by the record company.

IMO, by 1974-75, even though the Beach Boys were touring to sellout crowds, I feel they were kind of beaten down by the relative failures of their recent (post 1967) recordings. I think Carl as producer had enough. Was anybody clamoring for more Al Jardine songs. I don't have to address Mike Love with you. And good old Brian. What "artistic" statements did he want to make? Or could he make at that time? We're still waiting for them 35 years later. I will agree with you that Dennis was ready and able to do some heavy stuff, which he eventually did with POB.

Maybe we gave the Beach Boys more credit than they deserved as far as recording "artistic" albums in the 1970's and 1980's. Look at Carl's solo albums. Al still hasn't done one. Looking Back With Love? BW 88?

Or maybe they were really just being themselves. And those "fun" albums of the 70's were really who "the guys" were - even in their 30's and 40's.  Just celebrating the joys of everyday living...

 
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« Reply #36 on: February 24, 2006, 06:46:04 PM »

Sherriff, I honestly can't get your post.  It goes against all of the history we have and speculates on motives with little or no factual evidence.  Most of the albums you list received rave reviews, starting with Sunflower.  Rolling Stone gave it a good review.  Surf's Up also got raves, and the touring show was starting to kick into high gear.  Carl and the Passions was a bit of a setback, but a #50 placement on the charts is still far better than most of the recent material.  And Holland also went top 40.  The only reason Holland was rejected was lack of a hit single.  The BB were perceived as a hits band and Warner didn't want to push an album as an album from a band so perceived (think the Kinks). 

One time I saw a critics' lists of best rock albums done in 75 or 76 or so.  It was various critics' favorite albums at that time.  Surf's Up and Holland was popping up a lot.  This material was well received, and Carl had to be aware of how well it was being received.  The live act was in full gear BEFORE Endless Bummer.  You can't tell me that the band (except maybe Mike) were unaware of the critical shift or thought it was a bunch of failures. 

I think that Peter Carlin may well have the decisive insight -- the death of Murry in 1973.  If you notice, they never did another Holland after he died.  Everything changed.  And that might well be where the rips in the fabric of the group began.

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« Reply #37 on: February 24, 2006, 07:33:06 PM »

Sherriff, I honestly can't get your post. 



Jeff, I'd like to clarify my point without repeating much of my above post.

Smiley Smiley sold OK, thanks to "Good Vibrations" and "Heroes And Villains". But then (I think) Wild Honey sold less. And then Friends sold even less. I really don't think the record buying public, or even the group themselves (other than Brian), would consider Smiley Smile and Friends as successful albums. And obviously, Capitol Records felt the same way because they were issuing the Beach Boys Greatest Hits Vol. 47 and not renewing their contract.

Now, before the ink is even dry on their new contract with WB, their first album, Sunflower, is rejected and eventually tanks. You can only take so much solace in positive record reviews, but the fact is, nobody heard Sunflower in the United States. Apparently, this devasted Brian.

Yes, Surf's Up got good critical press and sold better, but again, no hit singles, in fighting with Dennis, and the album was only accepted after VDP suggested "Surf's Up" be resurrected. Yes, I'm speculating, but I don't think this was a pleasant experience for the group. Bruce left.

Now, the group decides to change their sound. Why? Yes, I'm speculating, but maybe they weren't happy with their previous sound. Maybe they wanted to sound more contemporary or "hip". So in comes Blondie and Rikki. Were the "Flame" songs successful? No. Did Pet Sounds being grafted to CATP help it sell? Pet Sounds - an "oldie" album.

Almost everything I read about Holland is negative. I'm speculating again but I think for every good review of Holland, there is a negative one. Again, the album was rejected by the record company. If it wan't for VDP, there might not have been a released Holland.  Sales were better than CATP but not as good as Surf's Up. One step front, two steps back. Now Chaplin and Fataar were gone. So was Jack Reilly. What was left?

Jeff, put yourself in 1974. Do you really think the record buying public were clamoring for more of the last 5-6 Beach boys' albums. From what you've read (and I know you've read a lot), was the recording of those post-1967 albums a positive experience for the group. Did Carl produce the records because he wanted to or had to. I think they had enough. I think they were afraid. I think they used up most their ideas. Other than Dennis, I don't know how much "artistic vision" was left with Carl, Mike Al, AND Brian. And this I will repeat - just look at their solo albums where they had the freedom to be "artists".

One last thing. Times had changed. No more war. No more Nixon. The bicentennial was approaching. They were in age 30-something to 40-something. They had money again. Carl, Dennis, and Brian were drug addicts. Maybe they actually preferred being the good old Beach Boys instead of trailblazing music makers.

I don't know if this makes my point any clearer...

Late edit - yes, I see the correlation with Murry's death.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2006, 07:36:55 PM by Sheriff John Stone » Logged
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« Reply #38 on: February 24, 2006, 07:54:40 PM »

I dont have anything to add, but wow! I knew Brian and Dennis were in the drugs but I didnt think Carl was. I figured maybe some pot and acid...but nothing to heavy.

I need to pick up some books, fast!
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« Reply #39 on: February 24, 2006, 08:59:38 PM »

All this is true...in the US only. Worldwide, they were more popular than ever.

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I dont have anything to add, but wow! I knew Brian and Dennis were in the drugs but I didnt think Carl was. I figured maybe some pot and acid...but nothing to heavy.

Carl was on smack.
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« Reply #40 on: February 24, 2006, 09:35:45 PM »


Well, there's that  boot of that  LA Light Album tour show where Mike bitches the audience out.....  but listening to Mike's original material from the period and it's obvious that he liked the old formula.


What did Mike say to the audience and what was he mad about?
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« Reply #41 on: February 24, 2006, 09:53:50 PM »

Michael was ranting about his 10 inch c*ck, compared to Denny's meager 9.5 in....oh, and mocking them about requests...ladida...

Does anyone know what Dennis is doing on the cover of the beach boys in concert'73 LP? I DO..

look at the expressions of the audience...
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« Reply #42 on: February 25, 2006, 03:05:48 AM »

"15 Big Ones" was a huge break in the continuity. FACT

Dennis and Carl were disappointed with it. FACT

But there's much more to this story. If you look at Mike's role in the album, it was more or less like Holland. He got included a "solo" track, "Everyone's in Love With You", which is as much a fun in the sun song as "Big Sur". And he got a cowrite with cousin Brian, "It's OK", as he had before with "Funky Pretty" (though that one also had Rieley in the credits). This time his collaboration with Dennis wasn't finished, "10.000 Years", to match "Only With You".

Brian was way more active this time. Ok, "Had to Phone Ya" and "Back Home" were rehashes. But "It's OK", "That Same Song", "TM Song", "I Want to Pick You Up", "California Feelin'" and "Good Timing" were available. Those are the ones I really know, i'm not counting "Patty Cake" and the sorts".

After two tracks in Holland, Al had no new material that we know of. "Suzie Cincinatti" was six years old by that point. "Out in teh Country" was a leftover from Holland but Al chose to not rework it for the next album.

About Carl and Dennis, I already asked pertinent questions.
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« Reply #43 on: February 25, 2006, 05:25:06 AM »


Well, there's that  boot of that  LA Light Album tour show where Mike bitches the audience out.....  but listening to Mike's original material from the period and it's obvious that he liked the old formula.


What did Mike say to the audience and what was he mad about?

This is the whole episode....

Al starts out saying something like, "We have some more old songs coming up soon, so please be patient!"

Bruce: "Yeah, you know we have to play stuff off our new album and all...."

Mike says, "Oh, you wanna hear 409, there, in the back?  Ok, we can do that...." (to the side, you can hear Carl moan, "Oh, all right..." with some genuine boredom as well as mockery in his voice)

A brief mocking rendition follows with what may be the most nasal vocal Mike Love has ever done.  After they get through the last opening "4---0---9"  Mike screams, "Now SHUT UP!!!!"  Then plows into Sumahama.

That was from memory so the quotes may be off a bit, but that was the gist of it.  If I remember correctly, it was the Nassau 79 show...
« Last Edit: February 25, 2006, 05:33:08 AM by Jeff Mason » Logged
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« Reply #44 on: February 25, 2006, 05:40:02 AM »

One other comment on Dennis -- one of the two bios makes this point but I can't remember which.  Why didn't he just quit?  Why did he tank his own solo album for LA by giving away two of the best songs?  Simple:  money.  No way he makes as much solo as he did as a band member, and the royalties for two songs on LA were better than a whole solo album's worth of material.  If money weren't an issue, he probably would have broken away.  Plus, the band selling Brother Studios also hastened the demise of Bamboo, as it took away the convenient place for him to record his way.
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« Reply #45 on: February 25, 2006, 06:05:36 AM »

One other comment on Dennis -- one of the two bios makes this point but I can't remember which.  Why didn't he just quit? 

Sherrif also raised this question on site 2. The thing is, that the Beach Boys were his band (as well as everybodys). Everybody worked very hard to make the Beach Boys what tey were. Then someone comes and tries to make forget about the great things you have done(Dennis' most and best work was done in the "progressive years") and you just can't stand it. If he quit, it would show that the Beach Boys meant nothing to Dennis. But hell, the band was his life. Same goes for Carl and Brian and probably Mike and Al. When your kid gets sick, you don't just walk out of the room and wait til it gets healthy, you try to help him...





EDIT: BTW in the Knebwoth booklet, it is said that Al had concerns about the band being a "travelling jukebox". That was 1980
« Last Edit: February 25, 2006, 06:23:18 AM by Rocker » Logged

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« Reply #46 on: February 25, 2006, 06:25:58 AM »

Question to anybody who read "The Real Beach Boy":

Did Dennis at some point in '74 or '75 decide that all his songs would be saved for a solo album or did he submit them to the "next album"?
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« Reply #47 on: February 25, 2006, 06:49:20 AM »

One other comment on Dennis  Why didn't he just quit?  Why did he tank his own solo album for LA by giving away two of the best songs?  Simple:  money.  No way he makes as much solo as he did as a band member, and the royalties for two songs on LA were better than a whole solo album's worth of material.  If money weren't an issue, he probably would have broken away. 

Yes, Jeff, this is true. I addressed this point (money) on an earlier post on this thread.

But in addition to royalties, I believe that Dennis wanted to cash in on the Beach Boys' touring.

What a great gig! Play music for an hour and a half. Play the piano for a song or two. Sing two or three lines (You Are So Beautiful), take a break and let Bobby Figueroa fill in, have young girls swoon over you, get a standing ovation, and get a check!

Who would want to give that up. He would've had to work a lot harder as a solo act.
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« Reply #48 on: February 25, 2006, 06:54:05 AM »

Question to anybody who read "The Real Beach Boy":

Did Dennis at some point in '74 or '75 decide that all his songs would be saved for a solo album or did he submit them to the "next album"?

Stebbins has him planning for a solo album during the Endless Summer period.  According to Stebbins, the band wasn't interested in Dennis' songs so he decided to use them for himself.
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« Reply #49 on: February 25, 2006, 10:12:41 AM »


Stebbins has him planning for a solo album during the Endless Summer period.  According to Stebbins, the band wasn't interested in Dennis' songs so he decided to use them for himself.

That situation dates back to 1970, when Dennis was making his first conscious attempts at a solo career.

As far as the band was concerned on their position on Dennis' material, they were dumb as f***, man. Dennis had the class material, not even Brian was giving them much class material. I blame Carl mostly for that.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2006, 10:17:25 AM by Dr. UNH, Esq. aka Jason » Logged
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