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Author Topic: Truly So Divided? (or) WATCH ME YELL!  (Read 17700 times)
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grillo
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« Reply #25 on: June 12, 2010, 08:39:22 AM »

I feel that Government and Political Leaders are a necessary evil.
It is often said that the state is a necessary evil and there is nothing that can be done about it. Why any type of evil would be considered necessary by so many people always puzzled me. The primary reason put forth for having a state is that in order for men to achieve a just society, a monopoly on the use of force is required to deal with the "bad guys"--to protect the sheep from the wolves. The state thus comes to be respected under the guise of offering order and security to an otherwise (supposedly) lawless and violent society.Those who run the state continuously claim that they need more treasure, more strict obedience and an ever expanding scope of control to make the people more secure. Law is no longer discovered by reason but dictated by rulers. The general population is continually pandered to at the level of a beer commercial: "It don't get no better" than the state, so "trust us" and enjoy your bread and circuses.The state may be evil, but it is not necessary. If men were not able to organize a society where peaceful exchanges, as well as respect for property and persons are generally recognized, then the human race would have died out long before the elite discovered the controlling mechanism that is the state.
just sayin...
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the captain
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« Reply #26 on: June 12, 2010, 08:41:15 AM »

The nation-to-nation villainizing is easy, though. It's our internal stuff (and I assume other countries have it similarly) that really bothers me even more. (On Iraq, though, I will say this: most Americans I knew were against it even then, and did not believe the official line on it. That's not to say some or maybe even most didn't, but it was more commonly disbelieved even here--by a mile--than the media let on. Because every network and almost every politician went along with it all.
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« Reply #27 on: June 12, 2010, 08:43:34 AM »

If men were not able to organize a society where peaceful exchanges, as well as respect for property and persons are generally recognized, then the human race would have died out long before the elite discovered the controlling mechanism that is the state.
just sayin...
But that organization of society is government. Not the formal, gigantic, international, uber-wealthy, militarily omnipotent version of it we have today, but that's what it is. When people organize themselves to a society, that organization is government.
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« Reply #28 on: June 12, 2010, 08:49:21 AM »

I feel that Government and Political Leaders are a necessary evil.
It is often said that the state is a necessary evil and there is nothing that can be done about it. Why any type of evil would be considered necessary by so many people always puzzled me. The primary reason put forth for having a state is that in order for men to achieve a just society, a monopoly on the use of force is required to deal with the "bad guys"--to protect the sheep from the wolves. The state thus comes to be respected under the guise of offering order and security to an otherwise (supposedly) lawless and violent society.Those who run the state continuously claim that they need more treasure, more strict obedience and an ever expanding scope of control to make the people more secure. Law is no longer discovered by reason but dictated by rulers. The general population is continually pandered to at the level of a beer commercial: "It don't get no better" than the state, so "trust us" and enjoy your bread and circuses.The state may be evil, but it is not necessary. If men were not able to organize a society where peaceful exchanges, as well as respect for property and persons are generally recognized, then the human race would have died out long before the elite discovered the controlling mechanism that is the state.
just sayin...

Oh the human race would be alive and well but only the strongest and smartest would survive. A byproduct of 'Civilised society' is that it has pretty much done away with the natural selection element of Human existence. Whether that is a good or bad thing ultimately, is a debate I haven't got the brass ones to enter....   Wink
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grillo
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« Reply #29 on: June 12, 2010, 08:52:07 AM »

If men were not able to organize a society where peaceful exchanges, as well as respect for property and persons are generally recognized, then the human race would have died out long before the elite discovered the controlling mechanism that is the state.
just sayin...
But that organization of society is government. Not the formal, gigantic, international, uber-wealthy, militarily omnipotent version of it we have today, but that's what it is. When people organize themselves to a society, that organization is government.
It's the monopoly on the use of force that makes a government.
All other interactions are humans VOLUNTARILY interacting with one another. Most daily aspects of your life are free of government, why not strive to make ALL of them so?
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the captain
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« Reply #30 on: June 12, 2010, 09:02:43 AM »

Both of your last two posts bring the same thought to me, which is why I don't agree with your (a-)political ideology. (And I know I said a few times I don't want to actually talk politics themselves in this thread, but I guess I'm a failure.) The idea that only the strongest survive isn't attractive to me; and why not strive to free all aspects of your life government-free isn't for that same reason. People "socialized" for group protection, either in terms of against violence, or food-sharing, or social company, or whatever else. They were stronger banded together than individually, even though that meant an absolutely equal division of effort and benefit was virtually impossible. Someone, inherently, is not carrying his own weight. Still, for the idea of the benefit of society to work, even the strong carry on in this fashion. This is why I want government in my life. I believe the U.S. government does a pretty poor job of protecting those who can't support themselves, but I also believe it's better than doing no job at all. It does not bother me that some mentally ill homeless person has a meal and place to sleep on my dime even though he will almost certainly never pay me or society back. And I do not want to depend on people's goodwill to help the helpless or hopeless because people (even if well-meaning) are lazy and greedy. I want societal regulation that says we all chip in, and this (with "this" obviously changing over time, but hopefully suiting societal needs) is what we get for it. It is horribly, horribly imperfect. But it's better than stepping over a homeless guy passed out on the street and thinking, "oh well, he was weak...maybe some kind-hearted dipshit will give him a blanket."
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« Reply #31 on: June 12, 2010, 06:52:04 PM »

As concerned humans we care enough to discuss our frustrations on a board where we all have at least one thing in common- the Beach Boys.

To all the good hearted souls on this board who care about the less fortunate, all I have to say is- 13,000,000,000,000$ national debt, up to 19,000,000,000,000$ in 5 years. Where has the money gone, why do we still have homeless? The damn government has wasted more responsibility and trust than it can get back any time soon. I make 12$ an hour, try to sell art, and try to make a living and nobody has any $ unless your in a union or work for the government. My family is taxed for fixing up their own damn home, and its such bull merda. People came to America to escape all that merda, and now we are experiencing it here.

13,000,000,000,000$$- why do we still have homeless? Keep your damn government if you want it, it works so well doesn't it? Do you know where your $$ goes? There is nothing it does right, and the bigger it grows the more fodaed we get.

Our Constitution explicitly says gov't is to promote the general welfare, not to provide it. Ask the homeless person where the shelter is- the local church or the town hall. America gives more out of pocket to charites privately than the govt does, and now we have big-time politicians trying to get rid of tax deductions for charitable donations. Well by golly ain't that a smart idea. Just what we need. That's really going get rid of the homeless.

Give me my own $$ back and I can do better with it than the gov't will. It adds up. Several thousand has been taken out of my paychex. Thats $$ I earned and I can use.
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the captain
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« Reply #32 on: June 12, 2010, 07:26:32 PM »

That is approaching the kind of content and tone this thread was begun to discuss.
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« Reply #33 on: June 12, 2010, 07:28:44 PM »

Don't want to get anymore political than the last post. I truly feel we are not divided in our goals, just on how to get there. When I say "we" I mean most of us, there some real scumbags out there.

One of my favorite things about the BB's is how they really didn't get too political, as say John Lennon did. They just wrote good music, and sang Happy Birthday America... LOL
As we share a mutual love for the BB's it is healthy to discuss other ideas that are relevant, such as an occasional political rant, much as we do other ideas. As long as we keep it cool, and in perspective. Add in a joke or two, and there is much fun to be had.
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« Reply #34 on: June 12, 2010, 07:33:53 PM »

That is approaching the kind of content and tone this thread was begun to discuss.

I know, as I often do I thought about what I posted and tried to clarify or amend it. I don't want to go there, but to me it is really important as there are too many people struggling to make it. I want to be passionate without maniacal, and with my last post I tried to get back to topic. As long as I keep getting ripped off though, I will occasionally vent. It is hard not too sometimes.
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Mike's Beard
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« Reply #35 on: June 13, 2010, 10:29:54 AM »

I guess what this debate boils down to is does the many cons of bring ruled by a Government outweigh the undeniable pros it also brings? Is never truly being completely free to live and shape one's own destiny a fair trade off for the relative (and I must stress relative) comfort and security an all seeing omnipresent system provides? 
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grillo
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« Reply #36 on: June 13, 2010, 02:15:32 PM »

I guess what this debate boils down to is does the many cons of bring ruled by a Government outweigh the undeniable pros it also brings? Is never truly being completely free to live and shape one's own destiny a fair trade off for the relative (and I must stress relative) comfort and security an all seeing omnipresent system provides? 
The answer is no. Give me 12 years of indoctrinating you and I'm pretty sure I can convince you that we can all be free, and even the unfortunate can be cared for without the use of coercion and force. If you are taught that you need to be lorded over in order to maintain your freedom, well that doesn't say much for what the rulers think of you. You can be free, you just nee to open your mind to the possibility, and believe in yourself and your fellow man/woman. Government is a leech, and that's putting it mildly!
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« Reply #37 on: June 14, 2010, 07:09:22 AM »

Despite wanting to keep arguing points, I'm reminding myself that isn't what the thread was intended to be; but instead that what I really want to get at is less what people believe than what makes people so entirely dismiss the possibility that someone else is something other than an idiot or mad scientist for believing something different. That said, I read a NYT essay that had a few interesting things to say about what's being said here as related to one current, well-publicized brand of yeller, Tea Partiers. http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2010/may/27/tea-party-jacobins/
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« Reply #38 on: June 14, 2010, 09:29:24 AM »

I think the key word here is 'brand'.
Is anybody out there really listening to or getting their info/news from only the mainstream media?! These are the same folks that propagandized us into TWO completely fake wars where actual real humans are having their lives destroyed, and that's just in the last ten years! The mainstream media has the blood of millions on their hands. Why would anyone ever trust them? Articles like that are pure arrogance and dis-information, making the idea of freedom seem absurd, while making a one-answer-for-all, top-down government solution look rational. For a good refutation of above article please look here:http://mises.org/daily/4463
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« Reply #39 on: June 14, 2010, 11:16:55 AM »

(Brand is always a key word; if I may turn that back to some of your earlier posts, let's admit that a government-free world would hardly be free of branding.) I think your error is assuming a single bloc of government, and of mainstream media, and a conspiracy resulting. The latter, as gatekeepers and creators of content, obviously have tremendous power. (As someone whose degree is in journalism, I do understand the history, the workings, the benefits, and the weaknesses of media, mainstream and otherwise.) Why would I take an article such as the one I posted seriously? Because having read it, I thought a lot of it made sense. Not all. I'm not mindless, and I won't take something as gospel because it appeared in [insert publication of choice here]. I'll read your response-link.
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« Reply #40 on: June 14, 2010, 11:28:53 AM »

I enjoyed that. I thought it was mostly reasonable, and its tone (remember? THE THREAD!? I'm convinced my thread idea is dead. Nobody cares. Waaaa cries the baby me.) is decent, more or less. I think the author makes a few mistakes, too, however. For example, I don't think Lilla intended to say that the Fox News crowd truly represents any sort of intellectual or theoretical libertarianism, but that the current Tea Party screamers look to them as blabbers of libertarian-tinged rants. And I don't think there is any doubt of that. But obviously--it IS obvious, right?--the candidates-in-waiting and their toadies aren't trying to minimize government or its power; they want to be in the best position to either enforce their ideologies or (more commonly) to put themselves in position for extremely lucrative post-public service careers. The other flaw I'd find is that I do not read Lilla's article as him saying he knows more than you do; I read it that he's saying you (the average person--not YOU, grillo) don't know as much about X/Y/Z as you seem to think, and sometimes experts really are experts. A healthy cynicism is just that, but there is a point where it's just plain silly to think you're individually supremely suited to find the answer (about whatever).
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« Reply #41 on: June 14, 2010, 11:39:18 AM »

Once again, I'm impressed you read my link and I love the open-mindedness of the posters in this thread!
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« Reply #42 on: June 14, 2010, 11:49:39 AM »

I have my opinions, but I'm too young to have final conclusions. At that point, what would be left to do but die? (As a nonbeliever, I'm not looking forward to that last step.) I enjoy thinking about anything that strikes me as intelligent and respectful, really. (It's the lunacy of certainty, particularly at high volumes, that bugs me. Hence the thread.) Actually I just finished another article on that site, the Erhard article linked from the home page. Since we're so far into the weeds anyway on this thread and nobody except a few people cares anyway (and so we're not annoying them by getting off topic), can I ask you to clarify this: do you believe in literally no government? Or just extremely limited government? Can you briefly explain?
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