Carl's Guitars

[VoxMysteron]

Hello everyone - new member here.

A few questions about Carl's guitars - in 1964, you see Carl with what looks like an export model version of the Rickenbacker 360/12 - very similar to George Harrison's as seen in "A Hard Day's Night", however, with an f-hole instead of the regular slash/cats-eye style one would see on a standard US Rickenbacker. The f-hole versions were produced by Rickenbacker at the request of England's Rose-Morris (the importers) and weren't really seen with US artists (you do see many pics of Pete Townshend with f-hole Rickys, for example). My question would be when and how Carl got this guitar, and how long did he use it for (there's not a lot of info about Carl in the existing books about Rickenbacker, including Tony Bacon's excellent new book on the history of the Ricky 12 string models, and no one, even CEO John Hall seems to recall this).

Carl received a tribute from Rickenbacker a few years back with a Carl Wilson signature model, which looks like a regular mid-60s 360/12 rounded over top (as opposed to the double bound Harrison style so-called OS model). I can't think of a single picture of Carl playing such an instrument - anyone have a pic of him with one, and again, how did he get it, and how long did he use it for.

Regarding Carl's Epiphone Riviera 12 - I know that he had two of them, when did he switch over from the Rickenbacker to the Epi, was there yet another electric 12 he used (e.g. Fender)? When did one of those guitars get re-necked with a Gibson 335/12 neck?

I recall seeing Carl with a regular 6 string Riviera back circa '72-'73 (I think there's a pic of him playing one on the Concert album) - when did he switch to the Gibson ES-335?

[c-man]

Welcome aboard, Vox!

I believe he used a Fender 12-string on "Don't Hurt My Little Sister", cut in June '64, then switched to the Rickenbacker shortly after he saw "A Hard Days' Night" (as did Jim aka Roger McGuinn), which would be mid-August '64.  He definitely had it by September, when they appeared on the Ed Sullivan show.  However, the band had some things stolen on tour in late '64, and a 12-string (probably the Rick) was one of them.  There are pics of the touring band (with Glen Campbell) in late '64/early '65, and Carl is playing a Fender 12-string.  He obviously got a new Rick shortly thereafter, as there are shots of him playing one in '65 and '66 (including TV appearances like the one with Bob Hope and Jack Benny).  He'd pretty much given it up by '68, although he did sometimes play a different Rickenbacker (a black model) in the mid-'80s.  I have a Carl Wilson signature model 12-string (I believe there was also a 6-string model), and the top is rounded, while the back is flat-bound.

According to an article in Guitar Player magazine shortly after his passing, "Wilson owned a slew of guitars throughout his career, but his favorites were a blonde Gibson ES-335 with a 355 neck, and an Epiphone Riviera 12 with, coincidentally, a Gibson neck.  (Apparently the neck tended to break on tour and was replaced at least twice.)  In addition, his Fender Strat, nicknamed 'Old Yeller', is one of the very first production models.

'My presentation is pretty straightforward,' Wilson told GP in April '76.  'I use very few sound modification devices onstage.  I used to use a fuzztone that one of the guys in Gary Puckett & The Union Gap gave me, but lately I've only used some old Fender tube-reverb units.'"

Amp-wise, the article mentions this: "Although originally a Fender Dual Showman user, throughout the '80s Wilson typically played his Chuck Berry-inspired rock licks through two Fender Twins.  One Twin was dialed in to produce bass-heavy tones, and the other was set to deliver treble frequencies.  He later used a variety of amplifiers including a Yamaha and Mesa/Boogies, and always went for a much more agressive lead tone than the sound on the original recordings."

[bgas]

 There was an ongoing discussion on Carl's guitars and amps on the Shutdown message board about 6-7 months back, I think; there was some good info showing up, but then the post-er that was really wanting the info was forcibly removed from the board, it seems, and the thread died...

[Rocker]

Carl received a tribute from Rickenbacker a few years back with a Carl Wilson signature model, which looks like a regular mid-60s 360/12 rounded over top (as opposed to the double bound Harrison style so-called OS model). I can't think of a single picture of Carl playing such an instrument - anyone have a pic of him with one, and again, how did he get it, and how long did he use it for.

Great thread.
Here are some pics regarding the Rickenbacher that I found via google.









http://www.celebrityrockstarguitars.com/rock/wilson.htm

[Andrew G. Doe]

My memory may be off here, but I'm pretty sure this was issued after Carl died so, of course, he would never have played one.

[c-man]

My memory may be off here, but I'm pretty sure this was issued after Carl died so, of course, he would never have played one.

Yep, I got mine brand new in 2000.  That is a cool pic of Carl playing an original (non-signature series) Rick 12 in the mid-to-late '80s, though!

[VoxMysteron]

Thanks for the warm welcome and I look forward to participating here on the board.

That's a cool pic of Carl from the Rickenbacker ad - it's pretty low-res, but it looks as if it's equipped with "toaster" pickups, which would date it to not later than say '71 or so, but the real clue as to how old that guitar is would be whether it has a 24-fret neck (original 360/12s had 21 frets; this was increased to 24 sometime in the 70s). Toaster pickups can of course be easily retrofitted (Rickenbacker still makes them for their C series guitars and in limited amounts for people to retrofit their current production Rickys to vintage spec).

The pic above the ad looks as if it was taken in Rickenbacker CEO John Hall's office - he has a mini-museum of Rickenbacker guitars on the wall there, and the wall backing is the same :

[Emdeeh]

The image above of Carl playing the signature model Rickenbacker is actually a photo illustration/composite. I'm the photographer for the original shot, taken in Valdosta, GA on Halloween 1986. Carl was playing -- ahem -- another company's product in the original shot (let's just say the original ax was blonde). Rickenbacker flew in the new guitar for the ad.

Carl did not live to see the signature guitar when it was released, but he was still here when Rickenbacker approached him about his signature model, so he had input into the design of the final product.

[c-man]

The image above of Carl playing the signature model Rickenbacker is actually a photo illustration/composite. I'm the photographer for the original shot, taken in Valdosta, GA on Halloween 1986. Carl was playing -- ahem -- another company's product in the original shot (let's just say the original ax was blonde). Rickenbacker flew in the new guitar for the ad.

Carl did not live to see the signature guitar when it was released, but he was still here when Rickenbacker approached him about his signature model, so he had input into the design of the final product.

Wow...interesting!

[Jay]

After watching the Knebworth 1980 dvd, and the Seattle 1983 video, I have often wondered how Carl got such a "mean" sound out of his Gibson.

[MZ6]

Im sure this has been documented elsewhere before, but for a time Carl also used an amp built by Howard Dumble (think Al might have had one too) and for a shorter period a Tom Mitchell amp (not the repair guy).

Also, during the sixties on a UK tour he had another Tele - one with a paisley finish. Back then my uncle was a photographer who shot a lot of artists during that era in the UK. Although the negs are long gone he had some photos of Carl backstage with the paisley tele and also a few of the tele itself (my uncle had never seen that finish before). Every once in a while he finds and scans some 'new' stuff, but he tells me the Carl shots are definitely long gone.

e: I don't recall, but I think the paisley finish was introduced on production models in 1968. The gig he shot was probably in Scotland.

[tpesky]

When I saw Al in 2007, he had a Rickenbacker with him (12 string I believe) and used it to play California Girls ( I think he played the intro with it solo, still one of my favorite intros to the song I ever heard)

[Paulos]

There was an ongoing discussion on Carl's guitars and amps on the Shutdown message board about 6-7 months back, I think; there was some good info showing up, but then the post-er that was really wanting the info was forcibly removed from the board, it seems, and the thread died...

Bgas, is this the thread that you are referring to?

http://www.shutdown-vol2.com/forum/index.php?topic=3952.0

[DonnyL]

I don't think Carl has the Fender XII until early '65 ... that was a prototype and did not hit the street until late in '65.  not sure if he used it on any recordings, but i always thought the intro to "ca girls" sounds like the fender.  of course, we know that billy strange played a fender xii on "sloop john b"

[c-man]

Good point about the Fender XII, Donny...but I'm sure that's an electric 12-string on the intro to "DHMLS"...wonder if it was a Vox or something...

Anyways, I found these two items in earlier threads (thanks to Josh...Josh, you still around?...and Billy Hinsche...):

Fireglo Rickenbacker 360/12s: His first is what is now called the 360/12v64. Flat-top. Then he went to what the modern 360/12 looks like, with the carved top, and a little brighter finish, "R" tailpiece. Foskett mentioned that Carl had at least four 360/12s. (Josh)

When I first met Carl in '65 he was playing a Rickenbacker 360 Fireglow with a Fender Dual Showman amp. He also owned a Rickenbacher 360/ DBV64, a 360/12 and a Rose Morris designation #1993 with a dot neck and an F hole. (Billy)

[VoxMysteron]

C-Man - Rickenbacker is now producing the C series guitars, which are the successors to the previous V series. The current Harrison 12 reissue is the 360/12C63 (apparently called such because Harrison's guitar was only the second 12 string Rickenbacker made, in very late '63. The first 12 string Rickenbacker guitar went to country music artist Suzi Arden). The current C63 is supposedly more period-accurate (bracing, truss rods) than the V64, although cosmetically it's tough to tell the difference. The V64s are actually going for fairly high prices because of Rickenbacker's very limited production of the C series.



This goes back to my original question - here's Carl on the Ed Sullivan Show with the 360/12, and you can see that it's got a traditional f-hole, as you'd see on a Gibson ES-335. This is very atypical for a US Rickenbacker of that time frame - the only guitars Rickenbacker was producing with such f-holes was going to Rose-Morris of England (with different model numbers).



This is George Harrison's guitar at the factory, before it was taken to NYC for the February 8, 1964 meeting between F.C. Hall of Rickenbacker and the Beatles. Notice the "cats eye" f-hole, which was common to US Rickenbacker production.

[DonnyL]

i bet the 12 string on "little sister" is a ric.  i'm sure the fender is on some recordings though, not sure which ones

[Carrie Marks]

This goes back to my original question - here's Carl on the Ed Sullivan Show with the 360/12, and you can see that it's got a traditional f-hole, as you'd see on a Gibson ES-335. This is very atypical for a US Rickenbacker of that time frame - the only guitars Rickenbacker was producing with such f-holes was going to Rose-Morris of England (with different model numbers).

David had the same Rickenbacker 12 string as Carl w/ that traditional f-hole.  However, up until I just showed him that photo, he believed his was one of a kind....he was shocked to see Carl playing the same one!  He bought his at Melody Music in Hawthorne (they specialized in English gear) so Carl must have gotten his there, too.  David has always wondered how such a rare guitar ended up in Hawthorne.

[VoxMysteron]

I did a re-read of Tony Bacon's book, and he identifies Carl's Ed Sullivan Rickenbacker as a Rose-Morris model 1993, which was the English version of a US model 330S/12.

However, Carl's guitar doesn't have the "R" tailpiece common to R-M 1993 guitars, as in this example formerly owned by Pete Townshend (one of the few he didn't smash!):



Carl's guitar appears to have had the same tailpiece as George Harrison's, as far as I can see. The "R" was common by mid-64 on Rickenbackers, so absent a serial number to date the guitar, I think we can probably safely assume that Carl's guitar was a 330S/12 which must've been produced sometime not long after the Harrison guitar. The only thing that would change that assumption would be if the inlays on Carl's guitar neck are "shark fins" instead of dots - the "shark fins" would indicate a 360 series model. It's a bit hard to see for sure on the Sullivan videos and the previous picture I posted is inconclusive.

[Carrie Marks]

I did a re-read of Tony Bacon's book, and he identifies Carl's Ed Sullivan Rickenbacker as a Rose-Morris model 1993, which was the English version of a US model 330S/12.

However, Carl's guitar doesn't have the "R" tailpiece common to R-M 1993 guitars, as in this example formerly owned by Pete Townshend (one of the few he didn't smash!):



Carl's guitar appears to have had the same tailpiece as George Harrison's, as far as I can see. The "R" was common by mid-64 on Rickenbackers, so absent a serial number to date the guitar, I think we can probably safely assume that Carl's guitar was a 330S/12 which must've been produced sometime not long after the Harrison guitar. The only thing that would change that assumption would be if the inlays on Carl's guitar neck are "shark fins" instead of dots - the "shark fins" would indicate a 360 series model. It's a bit hard to see for sure on the Sullivan videos and the previous picture I posted is inconclusive.

David's tail piece was straight edged, like the Harrison model...it didn't have the rounded, decorative R like the Townsend model.  It also had the 'shark fin' inlays.  If you have facebook, there is a photo of Mark Groseclose holding it up.  David and Carl's guitars HAD to be the same. 

http://www.facebook.com/DavidLeeMarks?v=photos#!/photo.php?pid=413944&id=1495273903

[VoxMysteron]

David's tail piece was straight edged, like the Harrison model...it didn't have the rounded, decorative R like the Townsend model.  It also had the 'shark fin' inlays.  If you have facebook, there is a photo of Mark Groseclose holding it up.  David and Carl's guitars HAD to be the same. 

http://www.facebook.com/DavidLeeMarks?v=photos#!/photo.php?pid=413944&id=1495273903

Carrie - the photo isn't publicly available, but I've asked David to friend me on FB.

[VoxMysteron]

   
Above are two export Rickys, serial numbers DG851 (left) and DK620 (right) with the Harrison style tailpiece. The guitar on the left was shipped to England in August of '64, and DK620 was shipped in January of '65.


This guitar is serial number DK617, obviously produced very shortly before DK620, and apparently shipped to Rose-Morris in the same January '65 shipment. Obviously Rickenbacker was putting both styles of tailpiece on the guitars at the same time, whether some were ordered that way specially, or just whatever was in the parts bin at the time went on the guitar is lost to history.

Photos courtesy of Bjorn Erikson's Rickenbacker page.



This picture cinches that Carl's guitar had dot inlays, so I'd be inclined to call his as a 330S/12, but Carrie's absolutely correct about David's guitar - that's a very rare combination of features.

[Carrie Marks]

Although its all over the later Marksmen records, David never like the guitar...he said it was hard to play and he was disappointed it wasn't like George's.  He sold it for what he paid for it some time in the late 60's...but not before his father engraved his name on the backside of the serial plate.  Years later, after he realized how rare a guitar it was, he looked for it and heard rumors about a collector in Santa Barbara who had it.  Another 10 years or so went by and David met Jeff Foskett and it turns out, Jeff was the collector in Santa Barbara that had it...he'd picked it up in the 80's when he was in the Beach Boys.  David offered Jeff 10 grand for it on the spot...he paused slightly and then said No.  As far as I know, Jeff still has it.

[VoxMysteron]

Some players just don't get along with Rickenbacker 12s - they consider the neck to be too narrow and thin. I know several people who've had new nuts and bridge saddles put on their Ricky 12s to improve the playability (I should note that I get along just fine with mine!  )

[VoxMysteron]

Carl with the "new style" rounded top 360/12 - can anyone date this picture?