From 1984: Mike Talks About Dennis

[Sheriff John Stone]

BTW, I do have a real name but I don't use it on message boards because some people - maybe you - are not emotionally stable enough to handle message boards and might try something inappropriate.

That is about the most arrogant and objectionable post I've ever seen on this board, and dammit, I've seen - and made - a few. We really don't care about you and what you say enough to consider "something inappropriate" (paranoia is a terrible thing)... and as for you evaluating Howie's emotional well-being... 

If that's why you elect to cower behind a pseudonym, then I respectfully suggest you have considerably more problems than Howie might have.  I feel an apology is in order, but I'm not going to be here to witness it.

Talk about spinning words....Evaluating Howie's emotional well-being? Give me a break.

Let's see, concerning a simple post by me, you mentioned arrogant, objectionable, paranoia, cower, and suggested that I have considerably more problems than Howie (what problems DOES he have?), and suggest an apology. Coming from you that's laughable.

You know exactly what I meant by using a pseudonym, and potential problems that can occur, so don't patronize me.

[MBE]

First let me comment on the article. As far as Love bringing up the incident with Stan and Rocky it was in bad taste. That was horrible even though Dennis was in the wrong as far as what he did with Brian. As for the rest of the statement, he made some good points about how depressed Dennis was and how his condition hurt the band. It seems Mike may be one of the ones who thinks that Dennis no longer had the will to go on. I don't think Mike comes off as pro Dennis but I think he would have been a hypocrite if he had put on a phony upbeat attitude.

An observation in the 1974 tour film Dennis and Mike seem to be able to co-exist. They aren't buddies, but they can make it work well enough for the band to perform as a tight unit. Dennis teases Mike a bit, and Love seems to be slightly dismissive but they don't have to be sequestered from each other. By 1977 I suspect we would find quite a different picture. Why?

1. Mike wasn't easy to get along with and he as the years past he seemed to be on a ever increasing power trip .
2. Dennis (not to mention Carl and  Brian) was sliding into a lifestyle that caused him to loose his on stage professionalism. To me the It's OK special was the last footage where Dennis seems to be completely on his game.

Facts are they both were at fault and neither was in the right as far as how they treated each other. Dennis had a lot of qualities that Mike lacked, but he did bring the whole band down in the later years. Mike was a hard worker but not particularly sensitive to his band mates personal issues. In other words it isn't black and white and there are no clear cut good or bad guys at least to me.

[The Shift]

"He defied the laws of nature and of man. You can get away with breaking manmade laws, but nature is unforgiving. I think that put him on the path that led to his so-called accidental drowning. I don't think it was an accident at all. I think he was very unhappy.  The laws of nature that govern things like water, air, and breathing terminated his subscription to life, his mortal coil as we know it. But I'm sure he's with us. In fact, I feel the presence of his soul or spirit much stronger.  After a few hours, alcohol leaves the body.  I'm sure if you're disincarnate, it gives you time to think, without the inhibiting values of drugs and alcohol and stuff."

Not sure what this quote is implying -  seems to me that Mike was saying that now Dennis was dead the alcohol would leave his system and he'd have chance to reflect with a clear mind on the error of his ways.

Given that Mike also seemed to be saying that Dennis was, in effective, executed by the elements for defying the laws of nature, I wonder whether these words were uttered during one of Mike's moments of mental feedback (such as his Hall of Fame speech) and shouldn't perhaps be taken as having been a true reflection of his true feelings on the matter at that time.

Not guilty due to diminished responsibility / temporary insanity?

Edit: Meant to add, if Mike believed back in '66/'67 that the elements were capable of such vindictive slaughter, is it any wonder Brian never felt comfortable releasing SMiLE?!?!?!

[TdHabib]

EDIT: I just wanted to add that whenever I picture Rocky and Stan brutally beating up Dennis, I get sad and almost cry. It's definitely a sad emotion. But what does Mike do in the interview? He laughs about it. In my opinion that's shameful.

How did you feel when Dennis appeared on a national TV special, laughing, and saying about his brother, Brian, "He's crazy..."

And, how do you feel, Td, about Dennis possessing and supplying illegal drugs to a mentally ill, drug addicted brother? Is that shameful? Does that make you sad and almost cry?

First of all I just wanted to say I have never liked it when you take what I have written in posts in make a mockery of it.

Re: the first statement you have to add that Dennis went to Brian's house every day and tried to help him when he was starting to decline into mental illness. Every day. Check the WNEW interview from 1976.

Re: the second statement. I don't feel as strongly.

Just to add a little more oomph, imagine if Rocky and Stan's brutal beating had actually killed Dennis in 1981, instead of nearly killing him. I have a feeling many people (including Mike) would be singing a different song. I am all for getting rid of the Brianista Leaf attitude but we cannot make Mike a saint.

[Dancing Bear]

I actually thought this was a good interview where Mike was sensitive towards Dennis. How naive of me. 

But we know how it works. First we must state how Mike was an asshole, and after that we can state how Dennis was an asshole too. I guess it's our way of feeling near our heroes, repeating their psychodrama forever and ever.

[BillA]

First let me comment on the article. As far as Love bringing up the incident with Stan and Rocky it was in bad taste. That was horrible even though Dennis was in the wrong as far as what he did with Brian. As for the rest of the statement, he made some good points about how depressed Dennis was and how his condition hurt the band. It seems Mike may be one of the ones who thinks that Dennis no longer had the will to go on. I don't think Mike comes off as pro Dennis but I think he would have been a hypocrite if he had put on a phony upbeat attitude.

An observation in the 1974 tour film Dennis and Mike seem to be able to co-exist. They aren't buddies, but they can make it work well enough for the band to perform as a tight unit. Dennis teases Mike a bit, and Love seems to be slightly dismissive but they don't have to be sequestered from each other. By 1977 I suspect we would find quite a different picture. Why?

1. Mike wasn't easy to get along with and he as the years past he seemed to be on a ever increasing power trip .
2. Dennis (not to mention Carl and  Brian) was sliding into a lifestyle that caused him to loose his on stage professionalism. To me the It's OK special was the last footage where Dennis seems to be completely on his game.

Facts are they both were at fault and neither was in the right as far as how they treated each other. Dennis had a lot of qualities that Mike lacked, but he did bring the whole band down in the later years. Mike was a hard worker but not particularly sensitive to his band mates personal issues. In other words it isn't black and white and there are no clear cut good or bad guys at least to me.

My thoughts exactly.

I am certainly no fan of Mike's, but I would imagine that by 1977 Dennis was not a very good bandmate.

too bad Dennis met so much resistance to his proposed solo tour.  I am sure that is not unrelated to his troubles that led to his demise

[kirt]

Wait -- so throwing in that he gave Brian cocaine was "just an example" and NOT spin??? Really. The fact that Dennis was brutally attacked by his brother (from what I've heard permanently damaging his upper palate) was because he was supplying Brian Wilson with cocaine??? That's called "spin" Sheriff (I feel odd calling you "Sherriff" -- do you have a REAL name???) Mike's statement has real pathos and honesty until that point -- and then it turns. Thinking that Jon Stebbins is "spinning" Mike Love's statements regarding WHY Dennis Wilson was booted and beaten out of the Beach Boys is as silly as using a made-up name.

  I've noticed in late photos of Dennis, his upper lip area looks odd . Is this due to a damaged palate received by this beating?  The area above his lip protrudes slightly. I don't notice this on older photos.
  It seems like these thugs were out to finish Dennis off, out of the Beach Boys, out of a career. Kind of like in westerns when they break a gunslingers hands, only Dennis was a singer so,lets smash his throat.  
  Dennis was no angel but , maybe calling the cops would have been better idea ,instead of nearly killing your beloved cousin. Is this what the Maharishi teaches?
   If Mike ,through the years, would have shown more humility ,rock history would be much kinder to him.  It might read  Lennon/McCartney, Jagger/Richards......Wilson/Love.    But instead we find a "drugged out, no talent, parasite"  being praised as a late blooming musical genius,  why?   because truth always prevails.

I love The Beach Boys and Mike is a part of that. I like Mike from a fans perspective but, all of these guys would be a nightmare to have in the family. From the Wilson's to the "guy waiting on a bus."

 
  

  

[Ed Roach]

"The fact that Dennis was brutally attacked by his brother (from what I've heard permanently damaging his upper palate) was because he was supplying Brian Wilson with cocaine???"
"Mike's statement has real pathos and honesty until that point -- and then it turns."

Wow!  Stay away from here for a day or two, and all hell breaks loose...  Without even fully absorbing Mike's statement,  I cruised through all the comments, and have to interject on what jumped out at me:
First off, Howie, (while maybe there was palate damage from this beating, I'm more concerned about the throat damage done earlier), there is confusion regarding the physical abuse Dennis was subjected to by the Love brothers.  The first damage came from a sucker punch delivered by Steve, not Stan; (Dennis thought he might have additionally been kicked in the throat while he was down).  This was years & years before the brutal drunken beating he was subjected to by Stan & Rocky, just months before his death.

"Evaluating Howie's emotional well-being? Give me a break."

"Let's see, concerning a simple post by me, you mentioned arrogant, objectionable, paranoia, cower, and suggested that I have considerably more problems than Howie (what problems DOES he have?), and suggest an apology. Coming from you that's laughable."

Come on , guys, questioning each other's emotional wellbeing, as we sit here Monday morning quarterbacking a group of guys who started a group almost 50 years ago, and crafted some of their best music from the emotional & physical abuse they were subjected to in childhood???  And we feel capable of evaluating each other?

As for the comments about Dennis supplying Brian with drugs,  now that's laughable!  What occurred then was two damaged individuals who shared escaping reality while also creating music; how was Brian any less responsible than Dennis?  (And where does this sit compared to the drugs supplied Brian by Doctor Landy, and the permanent damage done by those legal drugs?!?!)  Also, what was Dennis' responsibility when the evil white powder was being fed by the shovelful to Brian by a certain record company president back in early seventies, (well documented & witnessed), to get "one more song" out of Brian, or the heroin supplied all 3 Wilsons by a certain bastion of English aristocracy, (when was he made Sir?), so that they could complete an Australian tour that he booked?
Wait until I get a chance to really read these posts, then I'll respond...  

[Reggie Dunbar]

Just more fuel heaped on another bonfire of a topic that is Mike Love. Apologists can spin it any way they like, but the sane and rational hear the words of an A-1 DBag in this article.

Prescribed thuggery / "Spiritualism" = Phony.

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

Anxiously awaiting Ed's next post... I didn't know about that story concerning Brian.

Facts are they both were at fault and neither was in the right as far as how they treated each other. Dennis had a lot of qualities that Mike lacked, but he did bring the whole band down in the later years. Mike was a hard worker but not particularly sensitive to his band mates personal issues. In other words it isn't black and white and there are no clear cut good or bad guys at least to me.

Well put as usual MBE. Really in this story, the Heroes ARE Villains, and vice versa.

[Sound of Free]

I'm more concerned about the throat damage done earlier), there is confusion regarding the physical abuse Dennis was subjected to by the Love brothers.  The first damage came from a sucker punch delivered by Steve, not Stan; (Dennis thought he might have additionally been kicked in the throat while he was down).  This was years & years before the brutal drunken beating he was subjected to by Stan & Rocky, just months before his death.

Ed, I'm very curious. How did this punch come about? Where was it, befofre or after a concert, at a band meeting? What started it? How did Steve's hitting Dennis go over with Carl and Al, and even Mike?

I know the booze, cocaine and cigarettes played their part in ruining Dennis' voice, but it would have been nice to hear POB sung by a guy who hadn't been sucker-punched in the throat.

[gsmile]

First we must state how Mike was an butthole, and after that we can state how Dennis was an butthole too.

This is all well and good, but let us not forget that Van Dyke Parks is the BIGGEST butthole.

[TdHabib]

EDIT: I just wanted to add that whenever I picture Rocky and Stan brutally beating up Dennis, I get sad and almost cry. It's definitely a sad emotion. But what does Mike do in the interview? He laughs about it. In my opinion that's shameful.

How did you feel when Dennis appeared on a national TV special, laughing, and saying about his brother, Brian, "He's crazy..."

And, how do you feel, Td, about Dennis possessing and supplying illegal drugs to a mentally ill, drug addicted brother? Is that shameful? Does that make you sad and almost cry?

How do feel about Mike saying Dennis was nothing but a talentless drug addict? That quote exists. How do you feel about the anecdotes from Mike's exes saying he battered them? That testimony exists. How about Dennis' child saying Mike knocked him across the room with a fist when he was a little boy for messing up Mike's kitchen.

We cannot just skip over these statements, this is shameful. I didn't know two of these things.

[Dancing Bear]

EDIT: I just wanted to add that whenever I picture Rocky and Stan brutally beating up Dennis, I get sad and almost cry. It's definitely a sad emotion. But what does Mike do in the interview? He laughs about it. In my opinion that's shameful.

How did you feel when Dennis appeared on a national TV special, laughing, and saying about his brother, Brian, "He's crazy..."

And, how do you feel, Td, about Dennis possessing and supplying illegal drugs to a mentally ill, drug addicted brother? Is that shameful? Does that make you sad and almost cry?

How do feel about Mike saying Dennis was nothing but a talentless drug addict? That quote exists. How do you feel about the anecdotes from Mike's exes saying he battered them? That testimony exists. How about Dennis' child saying Mike knocked him across the room with a fist when he was a little boy for messing up Mike's kitchen.

We cannot just skip over these statements, this is shameful. I didn't know two of these things.

Don't worry, those 'things' will be repeated to death in this noble message board, quickly followed on the spot by either 'Brian did this' or 'Dennis did that', dependending on the subject. 

By the way, thanks to C-man for taking the time to type this article.

[c-man]

By the way, thanks to C-man for taking the time to type this article.

Now I'm kinda sorry I did...

[TdHabib]

Dancing Bear, who/what is your new avatar?

[gsmile]

Now I'm kinda sorry I did...

No need to apologize c-man.  The content of Mike's "eulogy" may have been controversial, but either way I enjoyed reading an important Beach Boys quote I'd never heard of before.  Thank you for taking the time to type it up.

I won't dissect Mike's character in reference to claims his wife or children have made, but in reference to his words on Dennis, I do believe he had good intentions.  Mike has never been a very eloquent man when it comes to "deep issues" and I have to agree with Wee Helper's theory of "mental feedback".  The line about beating Dennis to a pulp is quite odd though.  Regardless of the context of any harm Dennis might have been causing to Brian, it's still in very bad taste to mention this, especially so close to his passing.  

[Dancing Bear]

Dancing Bear, who/what is your new avatar?

Jards Macalé, Brazilian musician.

[oldsurferdude]

By the way, thanks to C-man for taking the time to type this article.

Now I'm kinda sorry I did...

No need to be sorry-may dozens of accolades be your reward for doing so because it  so exposes Myk Luv's heinous nature. I only wish Dennis or someone else had had the chance to rearrange the baldster's face.

[Jay]

First let me comment on the article. As far as Love bringing up the incident with Stan and Rocky it was in bad taste. That was horrible even though Dennis was in the wrong as far as what he did with Brian. As for the rest of the statement, he made some good points about how depressed Dennis was and how his condition hurt the band. It seems Mike may be one of the ones who thinks that Dennis no longer had the will to go on. I don't think Mike comes off as pro Dennis but I think he would have been a hypocrite if he had put on a phony upbeat attitude.

Let us all not forget that this was back in 1984. The "wounds" between Mike and Dennis were still fresh on his mind/heart. I think that when he made these comments, he was torn between missing a departed musical partner/band member, and hating the guy for all the shitty things he did to the band in the last three or so years of his life. Before anybody here jumps on my case about that last sentence(I can see it coming), let's just take a minute to think about it. Dennis did some really lousy stuff to the group. Showing up drunk to concerts, attempting to beat band members up at concerts, etc. Hell, the guy even showed up drunk at The White House. Dennis jeopardised the group in many ways in those last few years. For Mike in the immediate years following Dennis's death, it was a double edged sword. So, I can understand the somewhat backhanded compliments Mike makes in this interview. It took MBE's comment above for me to really think it through. Personally, I like to think of the Endless Harmony documentary as Mike's last word on Dennis. Yes, he said that Dennis had a "death wish", but he also ended the subject by basically saying "wherever he is now, I hope the guy's finally at peace".

[MBE]

First let me comment on the article. As far as Love bringing up the incident with Stan and Rocky it was in bad taste. That was horrible even though Dennis was in the wrong as far as what he did with Brian. As for the rest of the statement, he made some good points about how depressed Dennis was and how his condition hurt the band. It seems Mike may be one of the ones who thinks that Dennis no longer had the will to go on. I don't think Mike comes off as pro Dennis but I think he would have been a hypocrite if he had put on a phony upbeat attitude.

An observation in the 1974 tour film Dennis and Mike seem to be able to co-exist. They aren't buddies, but they can make it work well enough for the band to perform as a tight unit. Dennis teases Mike a bit, and Love seems to be slightly dismissive but they don't have to be sequestered from each other. By 1977 I suspect we would find quite a different picture. Why?

1. Mike wasn't easy to get along with and he as the years past he seemed to be on a ever increasing power trip .
2. Dennis (not to mention Carl and  Brian) was sliding into a lifestyle that caused him to loose his on stage professionalism. To me the It's OK special was the last footage where Dennis seems to be completely on his game.

Facts are they both were at fault and neither was in the right as far as how they treated each other. Dennis had a lot of qualities that Mike lacked, but he did bring the whole band down in the later years. Mike was a hard worker but not particularly sensitive to his band mates personal issues. In other words it isn't black and white and there are no clear cut good or bad guys at least to me.

My thoughts exactly.

I am certainly no fan of Mike's, but I would imagine that by 1977 Dennis was not a very good bandmate.

too bad Dennis met so much resistance to his proposed solo tour.  I am sure that is not unrelated to his troubles that led to his demise

You may have hit on something there as far as the solo tour goes. I do notice a change in Dennis shortly before that though. I'm sure the s--t he got about doing a solo album made him somewhat resentful.

[MBE]

I noticed the posts concerning the punch from Steve. Listening to Dennis sing on concert tapes it seems that the incident happened in 1974. I have heard a late 1973 "Forever" that is very smooth and by 1975 he had the rasp firmly in place. I heard a 1974 interview where his voice is rough but I heard a few "Help Me Rhonda's" from that year where Dennis sounded OK. His voice seems to go back and forth in the 1974 film.

The incident with Rocky happened on Superbowl Sunday 1981. Notice that Dennis can talk a lot more clearly in 1980 then he could by the 1981 Long Beach footage.

[Jay]

I noticed the posts concerning the punch from Steve. Listening to Dennis sing on concert tapes it seems that the incident happened in 1974. I have heard a late 1973 "Forever" that is very smooth and by 1975 he had the rasp firmly in place. I heard a 1974 interview where his voice his rough but I heard a few "Help Me Rhonda's" from that year where Dennis sounded OK. His voice seems to go back and forth in the 1974 film.

The incident with Rocky happened on Superbowl Sunday 1981. Notice that Dennis can talk a lot more clearly in 1980 then he could by the 1981 Long Beach footage.

I have heard him do "You Are So Beautiful" from a Madison Square Garden show the group did with Chicago in 1975. He sounds very raspy, but he still sounds like "young Dennis", if that makes sense. Like he sounded on Forever, just five years earlier. But by 1977 and on, not only does he sound raspy, but his voice has aged. It sounds like his voice(speaking AND singing) changed an entire pitch/octive. Listen to Under The Moonlight for a good example of what I mean.

[Jay]

First let me comment on the article. As far as Love bringing up the incident with Stan and Rocky it was in bad taste. That was horrible even though Dennis was in the wrong as far as what he did with Brian. As for the rest of the statement, he made some good points about how depressed Dennis was and how his condition hurt the band. It seems Mike may be one of the ones who thinks that Dennis no longer had the will to go on. I don't think Mike comes off as pro Dennis but I think he would have been a hypocrite if he had put on a phony upbeat attitude.

An observation in the 1974 tour film Dennis and Mike seem to be able to co-exist. They aren't buddies, but they can make it work well enough for the band to perform as a tight unit. Dennis teases Mike a bit, and Love seems to be slightly dismissive but they don't have to be sequestered from each other. By 1977 I suspect we would find quite a different picture. Why?

1. Mike wasn't easy to get along with and he as the years past he seemed to be on a ever increasing power trip .
2. Dennis (not to mention Carl and  Brian) was sliding into a lifestyle that caused him to loose his on stage professionalism. To me the It's OK special was the last footage where Dennis seems to be completely on his game.

Facts are they both were at fault and neither was in the right as far as how they treated each other. Dennis had a lot of qualities that Mike lacked, but he did bring the whole band down in the later years. Mike was a hard worker but not particularly sensitive to his band mates personal issues. In other words it isn't black and white and there are no clear cut good or bad guys at least to me.

My thoughts exactly.

I am certainly no fan of Mike's, but I would imagine that by 1977 Dennis was not a very good bandmate.

too bad Dennis met so much resistance to his proposed solo tour.  I am sure that is not unrelated to his troubles that led to his demise

You may have hit on something there as far as the solo tour goes. I do notice a change in Dennis shortly before that though. I'm sure the s--t he got about doing a solo album made him somewhat resentful.

I think that his own brothers not supporting his music career hurt him more than we could ever imagine. I doubt that Mike, Al, Bruce or even Brian realise it, even today. Yes, Carl was supposed to be a part of Dennis' solo tour. But the fact that Carl went along with the final "group vote" probably "sealed the deal" for Dennis. He now knew just exactly what his family and band members thought of his music. Of course, I don't really believe, or think that way myself. I'm just trying to speak through Dennis's brain/emotions at the time. Even if Carl was outvoted, the fact that he caved in to the "group vote" probably said it all for Dennis.

[?]

First let me comment on the article. As far as Love bringing up the incident with Stan and Rocky it was in bad taste. That was horrible even though Dennis was in the wrong as far as what he did with Brian. As for the rest of the statement, he made some good points about how depressed Dennis was and how his condition hurt the band. It seems Mike may be one of the ones who thinks that Dennis no longer had the will to go on. I don't think Mike comes off as pro Dennis but I think he would have been a hypocrite if he had put on a phony upbeat attitude.

An observation in the 1974 tour film Dennis and Mike seem to be able to co-exist. They aren't buddies, but they can make it work well enough for the band to perform as a tight unit. Dennis teases Mike a bit, and Love seems to be slightly dismissive but they don't have to be sequestered from each other. By 1977 I suspect we would find quite a different picture. Why?

1. Mike wasn't easy to get along with and he as the years past he seemed to be on a ever increasing power trip .
2. Dennis (not to mention Carl and  Brian) was sliding into a lifestyle that caused him to loose his on stage professionalism. To me the It's OK special was the last footage where Dennis seems to be completely on his game.

Facts are they both were at fault and neither was in the right as far as how they treated each other. Dennis had a lot of qualities that Mike lacked, but he did bring the whole band down in the later years. Mike was a hard worker but not particularly sensitive to his band mates personal issues. In other words it isn't black and white and there are no clear cut good or bad guys at least to me.

My thoughts exactly.

I am certainly no fan of Mike's, but I would imagine that by 1977 Dennis was not a very good bandmate.

too bad Dennis met so much resistance to his proposed solo tour.  I am sure that is not unrelated to his troubles that led to his demise

You may have hit on something there as far as the solo tour goes. I do notice a change in Dennis shortly before that though. I'm sure the s--t he got about doing a solo album made him somewhat resentful.

I think that his own brothers not supporting his music career hurt him more than we could ever imagine. I doubt that Mike, Al, Bruce or even Brian realise it, even today. Yes, Carl was supposed to be a part of Dennis' solo tour. But the fact that Carl went along with the final "group vote" probably "sealed the deal" for Dennis. He now knew just exactly what his family and band members thought of his music. Of course, I don't really believe, or think that way myself. I'm just trying to speak through Dennis's brain/emotions at the time. Even if Carl was outvoted, the fact that he caved in to the "group vote" probably said it all for Dennis.

So the solo tour was voted down by the band then?  I wasn't aware of that.  I was under the impression that Dennis backed out of it himself due to insecurity.  No idea if I read that somewhere or my mind just made it up along the way...