Brian or Dennis - who was/is the better piano player?

[Emdeeh]

Isn't Carl WEARING a hat?

Yeah, that's classic for Carl, goofing for the camera. 

[BillA]

First I wanted to call this thread "best piano player in the Beach Boys" but since the answer very certainly would be (and rightly so) Bruce, I just made it about the two Beach Boys who probably saw (and still see) the piano as their instrument.

So, how good were Dennis and Brian ? Dennis started to play very late, compared to Brian, but I wonder if Brian could've played something like "Piano variations on: Thoughts of you". He always seems to pound more than play the piano, the right hand hammering the beats and the left playing a bassline (very rock'n'roll-like). I don't think Dennis did that too much. Quite often he plays the piano more like picking a guitar ("Time" is a very good example) which on the other hand limited his basslines on the keyboard.
In the promo video for Billy Hinsche's DVD about Dennis, Jack Riley calls Dennis a "brilliant piano player" (you can see the clip on youtube). But was he really that good?
Interesting thought: Dennis was considered a clubber on drums and came up with this exquisite stuff on piano like "Piano variations..." while Brian's kinda a clubber on piano but could, according to Steve Desper, at one point play drums in a way as tasteful as Hal Blaine

A basic flaw in the premise...Dennis did not begin playing piano very late, he was playing boogie woogie(as taught by Audree) before the BB's were a band, he was playing Beethoven and Gershwin pieces in the earliest days of the Beach Boys at rehearsals and after gigs, Carole Wilson stated that the first thing Dennis bought when they moved in together ('64) was a piano and that he immediately started composing...this is all well documented by folks who were there. Bruce's assertion that he 'taught" Dennis how to play the piano on the '66 Japan tour has been shot down by several people who knew Dennis before Bruce was on the BB's scene, perhaps he taught Dennis more advanced chordings etc... than he was capable of prior to that...but Dennis probably learned basic piano in '59 or '60(of course self taught, or taught by Brian, Audree and maybe even Murry). By '69 or '70 Dennis was blowing people's minds with his piano voicings. The other premise problem is that Dennis as clubber/drummer is a dying myth as we learn more and more about the many classic BB's tracks that DW was drummer on. Again, self taught, primitive perhaps, but the guy played on some of the BB's best stuff, Don't Worry Baby, Catch a Wave, Little Saint Nick, I Get Around, When I Grow Up, Dance Dance Dance, I Can Hear Music and on and on. Anyway, my point is the Wilsons were all really versatile musicians, none of them were significantly better than the other. On a given song one could outshine the other, but overall, not much distance between them as musicians, or as players.

Why didn't Dennis just switch to the piano full time on stage?

[Ed Roach]

  I think most of us have seen the clip of Daryl Dragon talking about Dennis's song "Barbara" and that the folks he had been in "music school" (sorry can't think of the proper term)  couldn't even write that.   

I believe it's on "Endless Harmony".   

It sure is on "Endless Harmony"; it's from one of the great interviews that Boyd did for that film.  Would sure love to see more of those interviews than he got to use in EH...

[the captain]

  I think most of us have seen the clip of Daryl Dragon talking about Dennis's song "Barbara" and that the folks he had been in "music school" (sorry can't think of the proper term)  couldn't even write that.   
 

I don't think that quote is relevant to piano-playing, though. What the Cap'n was talking about--you have to assume--was a gift for melody, songwriting. (He seems to be specifically referring to the melody in the clip.) He certainly didn't mean technical proficiency, unless his music school was full of the worst students in history. But the only Beach Boy whose instrumental technical proficiency was likely to top serious music students was David Marks--in part because he was one himself, at Berklee. I don't mean to demean the band, but their instrumental work is a lot more interesting from an arrangement (or compositional) standpoint than a technical-performance standpoint.

[c-man]

  I think most of us have seen the clip of Daryl Dragon talking about Dennis's song "Barbara" and that the folks he had been in "music school" (sorry can't think of the proper term)  couldn't even write that.   
 

I don't think that quote is relevant to piano-playing, though. What the Cap'n was talking about--you have to assume--was a gift for melody, songwriting. (He seems to be specifically referring to the melody in the clip.) He certainly didn't mean technical proficiency, unless his music school was full of the worst students in history. But the only Beach Boy whose instrumental technical proficiency was likely to top serious music students was David Marks--in part because he was one himself, at Berklee. I don't mean to demean the band, but their instrumental work is a lot more interesting from an arrangement (or compositional) standpoint than a technical-performance standpoint.

Carl and Al could both play some pretty mean arpeggiated acoustic guitar.  Carl on things like "Heaven" and  Al on "Welfare Song" and his 1983 WNEW Radio performance of "Sloop John B.".  Maybe not Berklee-level, but pretty good technically nonetheless.

[the captain]

Your post almost answers itself to my point, though: they're more than competent in their idiom, but not the kind of guys who had the chops to outdo people for whom technique is the primary focus. (And let's be serious: for the Beach Boys [or 99.5% of other pop or rock bands], dazzling technique was quite rightly not the primary focus.)

[Rocker]

and his 1983 WNEW Radio performance of "Sloop John B.".  Maybe not Berklee-level, but pretty good technically nonetheless.

Never heard about that. What is it about? And where could one listen to it?


I have to agree with Luther. Although they grew on their abilities, they never achieved the point where they where on a pro-level. Carl certainly could've been but hadn't had enough time to work on his playing outside of the BBs music. I don't think Dave would've been the player he is now, had he stayed in the Beach Boys either.
But to be fair, there are not many rockstars who play their instrument as good as a studio musician. Still in many cases they give their guitar, for example, a distinctive sound which probably wouldn't happen with a studio-pro.

[Wirestone]

But isn't this one of the reasons we all love BB/BW music -- there's never a lot of space in it for instrumental grandstanding. The arrangements, not the particular players, are the stars. I mean, Brian can record an entire record essentially on his own -- and it's not like he's a great drummer or anything. But he knows how to use the drips and drabs of what he has to make something that sounds great. (Dennis did that too, for that matter, on some POB tracks.)

[the captain]

The ultimate point for me is how little that matters. Obviously, the records (and shows) ended up great. Most music doesn't demand virtuosity (and more often than not, in my opinion, it suffers from its presence). Songs--pop, folk, rock, whatever, but popular songs--are more about a topic that listeners can relate to, enjoy, and sing along with. And most of the great songs can be played by someone banging out piano chords or strumming an acoustic guitar without suffering for it. So the "who's a better player" argument might be fun, but isn't really that big a deal, in that neither was great and both were good enough. (EDIT: I was writing while Gurwood posted; similar sentiments.)

[Ed Roach]

"But the only Beach Boy whose instrumental technical proficiency was likely to top serious music students was David Marks--in part because he was one himself, at Berklee." 

Obviously, my getting involved professionally with the band, and touring with them the better part of the 70's, brought about an obvious change from my teenage fan period.  Also, there wasn't any internet or anything like it when I was an obsessive fan, and the band were releasing the Capitol albums every couple of months; (which makes me really appreciate this site as I pass through my second - or is it third - childhood).  That being said, I would have been really surprised to read this about David, were it not for Stebbins bio.  His few pages about David's time at Berklee was a giant surprise for me, and caused me to delve much more deeply into appreciating Marks' talents.  Glad you reminded me to reread Jon's book, and really glad to be back learning so much I never knew about the music & players; in other words, back to being an obsessive fan!  (And excuse me getting excited about David in a thread about Dennis & Brian, please)

[adamghost]

I would go further with what's been said here is that the Beach Boys' lack of virtuoso chops coupled with an advanced understanding of arrangement is not just what makes their records great, but is fundamental to making a great record, period.  The reason studio musicians are so revered isn't just their technical chops, but their ability to understand instantly what does and doesn't work on a pop record.  Those guys could all play great, yeah...but the point was most of the time they played simply and played what was required. 

Anybody who's worked in a band or produced a record knows that instrumental virtuosity is one of the most dangerous things to making great music, because many times with vituosity comes a need to express that ability in places that aren't appropriate...and egoism in music is nearly always a bad thing.

One of the things that I have always admired about the Wilsons is how much they understood that a solid fundamental is not only all that's required on a great record, but often, all that is desirable.  Carl may not have been a killer lead guitarist but it's also clear that even by the stands of his own ability, he drastically underplayed in the studio.  And I think that is commendable.  All the Wilsons had a keen grasp of simplicity and working towards the greater whole in making a record.  It's actually an unusual knack to have, and it runs counter to the dynamics that exist in most bands.

[brother john]

http://web.archive.org/web/20061004220948/http://www.beachboyslandmark.org/

(btw, the caption is wrong - that's not the Wilson's music room)

Where is it?

[Andrew G. Doe]

http://web.archive.org/web/20061004220948/http://www.beachboyslandmark.org/

(btw, the caption is wrong - that's not the Wilson's music room)

Where is it?

Somewhere else... in the neighborhood.

[brother john]

Is that Hal Blaine on drums?

[Rocker]

Is that Hal Blaine on drums?

Don't know who it is, but definitely not Hal Blaine