Brian or Dennis - who was/is the better piano player?

[adamghost]

Oh, and sorry, I should have stressed the fact that both Brian and Carl really had an obsession with putting the root of the chord somewhere other than the tonic.  (Dennis didn't do this as much...in fact, of the three of them, Dennis definitely had the most "traditional" keyboard technique)

[TdHabib]

Adam, I do remember Don Was saying that Brian told him "Til I Die" was written in a similar fashion: Brian made a certain shape of his hand and just moved his hand in that position for the song, not worrying about the notes. He also said he wasn't entirely sure Brian was serious.

[adamghost]

Yeah, that had occurred to me as I wrote it, and I wonder if there isn't more relation to the two songs than was previously thought.  Another that occurred to me was that weird descending keyboard line in "Mess Of Help," which has that strange right hand cluster thing that Carl does, but with a lot of dominant and major 7ths which were Brian's stock in trade.  Which makes me wonder who was picking up what from who, and who played what, in that era.

[TdHabib]

"Long Promised Road" of all the Beach Boys songs I've ever learned, was the hardest.  The only Brian song I can think of that's more complicated is "I Just Wasn't Made For These Times," though there's probably a few others on PET SOUNDS I'm missing.

"Don't Talk" can't be any easier. Also, it bears to be said that Brian was very fond of sharping of flatting the fifth of a chord (i.e. Bm7-5) during the Pet Sounds era, they have a certain texture to them. This was his best period of chord and melody in my opinion.

[Emdeeh]

From footage I've seen, he would kind of hit the left hand with sort of a karate chop action.  That would put extra weight on the bottom notes, make them stand out more.  In the right hand, he really liked what my old piano teacher called "crushed chords."  That is, very cramped tonal clusters, and he also seemed to like to follow certain shapes around.

Adam, thanks for your thorough analysis of Carl's piano style. Do you think his being left-handed was a significant factor in his style of playing?

[adamghost]

Carl was left handed?  That's the first I'd ever heard of it.  He played guitar right-handed, which is not very easy to do for a southpaw (having tried my hand playing left handed).

[Fall Breaks]

Adam, thanks for a great post. Among all subjects that can (and have) been discussed here, these things interest me the most. Talking about complex right hand fingerings, have you seen the transcript of "It's Over Now" on surfermoon.com (sorry, can't link to it - click on 'chords' and scroll down)? It really shouldn't work, shouldn't sound good, playing those weird chords (one could be written as Em6add9/A if one have to have a 'name' on it). But it does sound good. And I'm, well, flabbergasted, which is a fantastic word by the way.

[Emdeeh]

Carl was left handed?

Yes, indeed. I'm married to a southpaw, so I'm more likely notice them. (BTW, the younger Carl Wilson is a lefty too.)

He played guitar right-handed, which is not very easy to do for a southpaw (having tried my hand playing left handed).

My southpaw hubby says he prefers playing right-handed because he gets to chord with his strong hand. Might have been something similar for Carl. Wonder if David Marks would know?

[adamghost]

Color me a little skeptical...what's your evidence on that?  Though it would be interesting if true.  It might partly account for Carl's meet and potatoes guitar playing style...but all the Wilson Brothers are like that to some degree.

[Wirestone]

Carl sure seems to be signing with his left hand here:



In other pics from this promotion, the writing on Brian's shirt is from left to right, so we know it's not mirrored.

[smile-holland]

[The infamous Baldwin Organ]

My southpaw hubby says he prefers playing right-handed because he gets to chord with his strong hand. Might have been something similar for Carl. Wonder if David Marks would know?
[/quote]

I'm in the same situation, and completely agree.

[Rocker]

As starter of this thread, I just wanted to thank you guys, especially Adam with his great insights into the Wilson's playing, for this great discussion. Love to read this.

Analysing the styles of the brothers, it would be interesting to know how Murry and Audree played.

[adamghost]

Wow...if Carl was really left handed, that changes a lot.  I know there are a few people who play guitar backwards, and keyboards of course by necessity.  I once did it when I had to play on a left handed guitar, and it can be done.  But it is not easy and it's not conducive to fluid playing.  As I said, it would partly explain why Carl's guitar style always stayed basic and not very agile, even as his musical knowledge grew.  I just always assumed that was a style choice, as it was for Dennis and Brian.

I'm surprised David Marks never mentioned this, if so.  I do know that in the early '60s it was harder for southpaws to get left handed guitars (this was a problem for McCartney IIRC), and so it may not have occurred to Carl that he had that option, but OTOH, their idol was Dick Dale, who was left handed (though he plays a rightie guitar, strung backwards).  So it's not like they wouldn't know such guitars existed.

Interesting correlation to Dennis' drumming style, which reverses the traditional positions for the right and left hand relative to the snare and hi-hat....more power to the snare, but you sacrifice some finesse.  Which is actually the way I myself play the drums, and my drumming style is very similar to Dennis' (e.g. hard, steady and stoopid).  And that's similar to what the other posters have said about left handed guitarists playing right handed.

[Wirestone]

Also: http://leftyguitars.us/lefty_detail.php?id=435

This guy behind the site wrote a two volume book on left-handed guitarists, so ... I'm guessing he's checked it out.

http://www.uncommon-sound.com/Lefty-Guitarists-book.php

[Sam_BFC]

Really interesting Adam.

So when you start layering those chords, on piano or guitar, you create this kind of spaced out, murky quality that comes from all those whole step intervals rubbing up against each other.  If this is too hard to understand, just sit down at a keyboard and just lay your hand randomly across a bunch of white keys, and hear the notes kind of smash against each other.  Now imagine layering that sound with organs, electric pianos, guitars, etc.  A blur, right?

This usually doesn't work.  Trained keyboard players tend to stay away from these kinds of voicings because pianos, organs etc. already are so harmonically rich that they'll turn a track to mush just by playing a standard chord. 

This being the case (dont know if this is a stupid question), but how was it that Carl DID make it work, that is ensured it didn't turn to 'mush'?  Or is there no real tangible answer to this?

Thanks

[slothrop]

Brian's piano and organ work on 15 Big Ones is keeping me in the Brian camp. Dennis' piano playing is a bit too boring in my opinion.

[adamghost]

Brian's the more distinctive player for sure.

[adamghost]

Also: http://leftyguitars.us/lefty_detail.php?id=435

This guy behind the site wrote a two volume book on left-handed guitarists, so ... I'm guessing he's checked it out.

http://www.uncommon-sound.com/Lefty-Guitarists-book.php

Extraordinary.  I had no idea.  Thanks for pointing this out! 

[Emdeeh]

Color me a little skeptical...what's your evidence on that?

Eyewitness account, on multiple occasions. Whenever Carl signed something for me, he wrote with his left hand.

Speaking of southpaw instrumentalists, we just got back from a concert tonight by Cherryholmes, which features a left-handed fiddle player. She's really good, too!

[Rocker]

I just found a '65 picture (that's what was said at least) of Dennis mplaying piano. Since we don't have too many early pics of him at the piano, I thought I'd upload it. Hopefully this time it works, as I've had some problems with getty images these last few days. Now I'm gonna upload it form my computer.



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[slothrop]

I just found a '65 picture (that's what was said at least) of Dennis mplaying piano. Since we don't have too many early pics of him at the piano, I thought I'd upload it. Hopefully this time it works, as I've had some problems with getty images these last few days. Now I'm gonna upload it form my computer.

Interesting. Please tell me those aren't their hats sitting on the piano?

[Andrew G. Doe]

I've also seen a photo - back view, but it's him - of Dennis at a piano/organ in the early 60s. Unfortunately, the place I saw it was on Harry Jarnagan's Historical Marker site, which has been down for some time.

BUT... the Wayback Machine is a wonderful thing !

http://web.archive.org/web/20061004220948/http://www.beachboyslandmark.org/

(btw, the caption is wrong - that's not the Wilson's music room)

[grillo]

I just found a '65 picture (that's what was said at least) of Dennis mplaying piano. Since we don't have too many early pics of him at the piano, I thought I'd upload it. Hopefully this time it works, as I've had some problems with getty images these last few days. Now I'm gonna upload it form my computer.

Interesting. Please tell me those aren't their hats sitting on the piano?

Isn't Carl WEARING a hat?

[jimmyboy]

First I wanted to call this thread "best piano player in the Beach Boys" but since the answer very certainly would be (and rightly so) Bruce, I just made it about the two Beach Boys who probably saw (and still see) the piano as their instrument.

So, how good were Dennis and Brian ? Dennis started to play very late, compared to Brian, but I wonder if Brian could've played something like "Piano variations on: Thoughts of you". He always seems to pound more than play the piano, the right hand hammering the beats and the left playing a bassline (very rock'n'roll-like). I don't think Dennis did that too much. Quite often he plays the piano more like picking a guitar ("Time" is a very good example) which on the other hand limited his basslines on the keyboard.
In the promo video for Billy Hinsche's DVD about Dennis, Jack Riley calls Dennis a "brilliant piano player" (you can see the clip on youtube). But was he really that good?
Interesting thought: Dennis was considered a clubber on drums and came up with this exquisite stuff on piano like "Piano variations..." while Brian's kinda a clubber on piano but could, according to Steve Desper, at one point play drums in a way as tasteful as Hal Blaine

A basic flaw in the premise...Dennis did not begin playing piano very late, he was playing boogie woogie(as taught by Audree) before the BB's were a band, he was playing Beethoven and Gershwin pieces in the earliest days of the Beach Boys at rehearsals and after gigs, Carole Wilson stated that the first thing Dennis bought when they moved in together ('64) was a piano and that he immediately started composing...this is all well documented by folks who were there. Bruce's assertion that he 'taught" Dennis how to play the piano on the '66 Japan tour has been shot down by several people who knew Dennis before Bruce was on the BB's scene, perhaps he taught Dennis more advanced chordings etc... than he was capable of prior to that...but Dennis probably learned basic piano in '59 or '60(of course self taught, or taught by Brian, Audree and maybe even Murry). By '69 or '70 Dennis was blowing people's minds with his piano voicings. The other premise problem is that Dennis as clubber/drummer is a dying myth as we learn more and more about the many classic BB's tracks that DW was drummer on. Again, self taught, primitive perhaps, but the guy played on some of the BB's best stuff, Don't Worry Baby, Catch a Wave, Little Saint Nick, I Get Around, When I Grow Up, Dance Dance Dance, I Can Hear Music and on and on. Anyway, my point is the Wilsons were all really versatile musicians, none of them were significantly better than the other. On a given song one could outshine the other, but overall, not much distance between them as musicians, or as players.