The Elements

[buddhahat]

You can't have too many smile threads, right?!  

What was the be included within this track and how?

AGD asked VDP this question and was told it was to have internal crossfades.

Fire is Pt 1.

There is some evidence (namely Carol Kaye's recollection of the sessions) to suggest that I Wanna Be Around/Friday Night was to follow although some dispute this. Personally I think this pairing works very well and if it's true, IWBA and FN could have been a significant part of The Elements - perhaps parts 2 & 3! If so, how do they work as elements? Admittedly, IWBA doesn't seem to have anything  elemental about it. FN has a watery hawaiian vibe, and the woodshop sounds are earthy. Perhaps there could've been a crossfade out of FN and into the water chant?

Earth - Did vegetables start life as the earth element, to be incorporated into the suite? Certainly by the time of the handwritten list (december?) vegetables seems to have been split off as its own track. What is the evidence that vegetables was ever part of The Elements - just Frank Holmes artwork, or is there more evidence?

Water - The main problem for me with Love to say Dada being water is that it was recorded right at the end of the smile period, and also apparently has 3 parts to it: The intro, the main bit, and if you listen to the sessions, they appear to start a piano based coda that sounds very deliberate. It sounds very much like a complete track by this stage, in the same way that Vegetables has become it's own track and has split from the suite.

My thoughts on Dada: How come All Day shares the same melody, has bird sounds, and is part of Heroes? One theory is that, as Cam suggests, for Heroes b side, Brian was trying to do a sampler for the album, putting little snippets together that each represent a track from Smile. In this context, All Day could start out representing The Elements on the Heroes b-side, in the same way that Cam suggests that Heroes Intro represents Fire. There appears to be shortened version of All day that could fit the bill. Perhaps it is the water melody from The Elements, combined with airy bird sounds - an amalgamation of two elements? During these shortened version sessions, an engineer can be heard saying "That sounds wild". Perhaps (and I know it's a big perhaps) Brian was so taken with the sound of this snippet that he decided to work it up into a longer song i.e. All Day, maybe to fill the b-side of H&V. He then decided to take this longer version that has started life as a representative of The Elements, and really work on it with BB vocals and everything, possibly as a main track for Smile and at this point it grows into Love To say Dada - an entire song that perhaps has a water theme, perhaps not. Certainly by the time of Wild Honey, it has grown into Cool Water.

Alternatively that Dada/All Day melody could have nothing to do with The Elements, and water could've been the water chant instead. What is the evidence that Dada was water? Is it just an assumption based on the fact that it grew into Cool Water?

The Elements in later BB albums: Brian appears to be revisiting these ideas after the collapse of Smile. Fall Breaks clearly derives from Fire, but also the bells/whistles session from Heroes. Interestingly it is sequenced next to Vegetables on Smiley. Diamond Head seems to have a very elemental vibe to it - the sound of a storm, the crossfades. Curiously it is also sequenced next to Transcendental Meditation. Clearly a derivation of Fire. Perhaps a coincidence, but perhaps not.

What are your personal Elements theories?

[runnersdialzero]

Curiously it is also sequenced next to Transcendental Meditation. Clearly a derivation of Fire.

Don't really hear that at all. Maybe a little, but it's a huge stretch - I don't think it's intentional.

Water - The main problem for me with Love to say Dada being water is that it was recorded right at the end of the smile period, and also apparently has 3 parts to it: The intro, the main bit, and if you listen to the sessions, they appear to start a piano based coda that sounds very deliberate. It sounds very much like a complete track by this stage, in the same way that Vegetables has become it's own track and has split from the suite.

Fire was two sections, though, was it not?

[buddhahat]

Curiously it is also sequenced next to Transcendental Meditation. Clearly a derivation of Fire.

Don't really hear that at all. Maybe a little, but it's a huge stretch - I don't think it's intentional.

Water - The main problem for me with Love to say Dada being water is that it was recorded right at the end of the smile period, and also apparently has 3 parts to it: The intro, the main bit, and if you listen to the sessions, they appear to start a piano based coda that sounds very deliberate. It sounds very much like a complete track by this stage, in the same way that Vegetables has become it's own track and has split from the suite.

Fire was two sections, though, was it not?

I definitely think Transcendental Meditation has grown out of Fire. Compare the melody of fire (the sung parts from BWPS) to the ah-ah-ah melody of TM - they are nearly identical. I would argue TM is just a re-hash of Fire.

Agreed, it may be a stretch to think the sequencing of TM next to Diamond Head was a conscious attempt to put elemnts songs next to elements songs. Wishful thinking on my part - but maybe a happy coincidence.

I don't understand what you're saying about Fire being two sections. As far as I can tell, there's just one part to it, and therefore it's Part 1 of the Elements. Unless you're including Heroes Intro as another part of Fire. I think this whistles section definitely belongs with H&V, not Fire.

[Mahalo]

I am a believer in the theory that Fall Breaks and Back to Winter Again (Woody Woodpecker Symphony) is/or had something to do with the Earth Element. One of the most criminally underlooked songs in the entire Beach Boys canon...

[Sheriff John Stone]

Fire is Pt 1.

There is some evidence (namely Carol Kaye's recollection of the sessions) to suggest that I Wanna Be Around/Friday Night was to follow although some dispute this. Personally I think this pairing works very well and if it's true, IWBA and FN could have been a significant part of The Elements - perhaps parts 2 & 3!

Two questions: Based on this sequence, did the fire just "go out" on its own, and then the rebuilding started? Where do you put the "Water Chant"? I think the fire has to be put out (by the water) before the barn is rebuilt. I always connected the "Workshop" to building the home on the range. But that's just one man's opinion....

[OneEar/OneEye]

When I hear Mrs. O'Leary's Cow my imagination doesn't just picture the raging fire, but also the firemen desperately fighting it,  There's a take of this song that ends with the fire kind of winding down (still crackling, but no longer raging) and then a quick three "boom boom boom" raps on the drums that signify (to me) the fire being stomped out.   Workshop sounds real good following this.  Whether it was definitely intended to, who knows?  But it does sound good.  Of course Fire, Water, Workshop sounds pretty good too, so I guess it comes down to whatever one likes.
I have read about the supposed "Barnyard suite" - which (from what I gather)  included things like In Great Shape, Barnyard and Workshop (possibly Vega-tables too?), but Workshop hasa mournful quality to it, it sounds like people rebuilding after some catastrophe (at least to me it does), so to me it feels out of place in the boppy, finger poppin' world of Barnyard/Great Shape. 
The fire destroys, the people rebuild, the restorative rains come, the earth revives, the crops grow...

[Sheriff John Stone]

...but Workshop hasa mournful quality to it, it sounds like people rebuilding after some catastrophe (at least to me it does), so to me it feels out of place in the boppy, finger poppin' world of Barnyard/Great Shape. 
The fire destroys, the people rebuild, the restorative rains come, the earth revives, the crops grow...

This is what continues to make SMiLE fascinating....I see the tone of "Workshop" completely different. I don't hear a mournful quality to "Workshop". With the sparse, "light", background music, I actually hear a casual, take-your-time tone, as opposed to a "let's hurry and get this barn rebuilt" quality (those are my words).

Restorative rains? That's interesting. So the water is used to revive the earth, grow the crops - not to put out the fire? Let me think about that.

[OneEar/OneEye]

This is what continues to make SMiLE fascinating....I see the tone of "Workshop" completely different. I don't hear a mournful quality to "Workshop". With the sparse, "light", background music, I actually hear a casual, take-your-time tone, as opposed to a "let's hurry and get this barn rebuilt" quality (those are my words).

Restorative rains? That's interesting. So the water is used to revive the earth, grow the crops - not to put out the fire? Let me think about that.

Actually I can dig your interpretation too (and I agree it is fascinating how many different ways one can see the picture), because perhaps after the dude tells his chick he's gonna give her a home on the range, we hear the building of said cabin, followed by farm life (Great Shape/Barnyard/maybe Vega-Tables) and the animals, chickens struttin' in their tennis shoes, etc. and then the stupid cow knocks over the lantern (or whatever it was the cow supposedly knocked over) and starts the fire, and oh heck there goes Chicago, but ahhh - the water puts out the fire, and then...and then...    
Anyway, I can see your point there.

[Chris Brown]

My theory has always been that The Elements was intended to be a four-part suite of approximately one minute long pieces, not full-length songs merely sequenced together. 

Fire is the obvious element, and doesn't really need further discussion, other than to say that it clearly was re-done as Fall Breaks for Smiley (Brian's "candle," if you will).

Water Chant would work well as the "Water" element - it's short enough, and most definitely "water-like." 

Air was described by Brian in the '70's as a piano cut that was never finished...it may exist in some form as a part of something else, but it's anyone's guess whether we've actually heard it or not.  I wouldn't be surprised if it has some connection to DaDa, but there are numerous piano bits floating around that could have been an offshoot of Air.

Earth is the biggest mystery for me.  I don't think it was Woodshop, I Wanna Be Around, I'm In Great Shape, or anything else that we've heard.  If it was in fact something we've heard, my money would be on Vegetables, but not the single version recorded in spring '67 - the early version from '66 with the "cornucopia" lyrics would be my guess.  It's shorter and more in line with Brian's humor concept.  Perhaps by the spring he had abandoned The Elements, and decided to make Vegatables into a stand-alone song. 

Based on the session tape of the "Fire" session, it was clearly delineated that Mrs. O'Leary's Cow was part 1 of the Elements.  No other recording we've heard references the Elements, so I've always assumed that to mean that Brian either didn't know what the other elements were going to be, or he never got around to recording them.  It's definitely the biggest remaining Smile mystery in my eyes, one that was not settled one iota by BWPS.

[A Million Units In Jan!]

As much as we don't want to believe it, I don't think that Brian got to a point where there was a concrete idea in his head of what they were going to be. Even 'Mrs. O'Leary's Cow' was gonna be put on the shelf because he believed it caused real fires. No matter what Frank Holmes drew or what Anderle and Vosse said or whomever said or heard whatever it is they heard, Brian was changing his mind every other day. Toss some names in a hat and pull one out-the one you pull was probably  an element at one time.

[buddhahat]

There's a take of this song that ends with the fire kind of winding down (still crackling, but no longer raging) and then a quick three "boom boom boom" raps on the drums that signify (to me) the fire being stomped out.   Workshop sounds real good following this.  Whether it was definitely intended to, who knows?  But it does sound good.  Of course Fire, Water, Workshop sounds pretty good too, so I guess it comes down to whatever one likes.

Yeah I absolutely agree, I wanna be around/workshop comes in brilliantly after those three boom boom booms. I like to think of those as large wooden beams or a building crashing to the ground. I'm pretty sure that at some point Fire and IWBA/FN belonged together as, not only does Carol Kaye claim as much, but they just sounds so right together. I also like the shift in tone from the dramatic fire, to the tongue in cheek humorous lounge music of IWBA - the type of musical joke that I imagine Brian relishing at the time.

I love your idea of the restorative rains after the fire, then earth representing the crops, which sets the scene for tracks like Barnyard and great shape. I could never relate the elements tracks to the americana ones but this works well. I share Sheriff John's opinion that Workshop has a laid back vibe, but I can hear the mournful quality you describe. Workshop reminds me of Don't Talk in it's descending chords and shares its melancholy mood in this respect.

[OneEar/OneEye]

I've begun to feel (and my apologies if this is straying off topic a bit) that Bill Tobleman's theory of Smile as a Zen Koan has become a reality in some ways.   First off, i think he's a pretty smart guy, great research for his ideas, etc.  and he certainly made a convincing argument for what he was laying down.  I don't necessarily believe that Brian and Van Dyke were aiming at creating a koan (though honestly, for all I really know they may have been), but certainly zen was an element (no pun intended, but certainly welcome anyway) just as I think a slew of other things were as well - Smile to me seems like the proverbial "everything and the kitchen sink too" kind of project, a hearty stew of all things hip, innovative , spiritual, humorous, intellectual, American, beautiful, scary, enlightened, et al.  The ultimate 60's symphony.   
Would they have managed to pull it off, I don't know, and i guess not because they didn't, but I do think they were aiming at something like this.
So to get to my initial point, it seems to me that while Smile may not have originally been intended as a zen koan by it's creators - it sure as shootin' strikes me that it has BECOME that.  A puzzle we work at over and over obsessively, attempting to "figure it out", and ""find the answer", the "perfect combination", but of course we never will (at least not until its creators reveal more or some undiscovered sessions come to light - and even then i doubt there'd be a resolution, though maybe).   
Will this "koan" bring us ultimately to enlightenment?  Or just drive us all mad?      Who knows, but Bill if you're out there - you may just have been correct afterall!

[runnersdialzero]

I definitely think Transcendental Meditation has grown out of Fire. Compare the melody of fire (the sung parts from BWPS) to the ah-ah-ah melody of TM - they are nearly identical. I would argue TM is just a re-hash of Fire.

I hear what you're saying, but they're totally different melodies, chords, etc. - everything except the phrasing being somewhat similar. There's a passing similarity at best, I don't think Brian used any elements of "Fire" for "Transcendental Meditation". Anyone agree? Disagree?

I don't understand what you're saying about Fire being two sections. As far as I can tell, there's just one part to it, and therefore it's Part 1 of the Elements. Unless you're including Heroes Intro as another part of Fire. I think this whistles section definitely belongs with H&V, not Fire.

Has that ever been confirmed? I thought it was said that the supposed "Heroes and Villains intro" on the boxset was an incorrect label on someone's part and that this was indeed intended to be part of "Fire".

[TheLazenby]

Yeah, there's no way that intro was meant for H&V.  I mean, it *KIND OF* works as a chase sequence (I stuck it after "You're under arrest!") but it's awkward as all get out.

That whistle intro was DEFINITELY part of Fire.

[buddhahat]

Yeah, there's no way that intro was meant for H&V.  I mean, it *KIND OF* works as a chase sequence (I stuck it after "You're under arrest!") but it's awkward as all get out.

That whistle intro was DEFINITELY part of Fire.

But if you follow the logic that it must belong to Fire, because it sounds similar to Fire, then surely the Swedish Frog section must belong to Barnyard?

It was recorded during a H&V session and shares the same master no. 50745 as many other Heroes sections, so I see no reason to place it with Fire other than they sound like they belong together. Remember, Brian also recorded a Bells & Whistles part, Barnyard, Great Shape, Swedish Frog, With Me Tonight, a version of Dada and a version of Do A Lot for Heroes, none of which sound like they belong (well, barnyard and great shape do, but you get my point). It seems the structure and nature of this song was changing constantly. My belief (admittedly formed during a recent thread on the possibility of a 2 sided Heroes single) is that Heroes Intro was to kick off side 2, and may have been followed by the minor key variation on the bicycle rider theme that sounds like a train. It actually works well in this context and whenever my kids hear the into within this mix they shout "Train!". This sequence is no more jarring a transition than 20 other goofy musical shifts Brian was doing with Smile songs, Home On The Range to Who ran The Iron Horse for example - that shouldn't work, right?!!  

I hear what you're saying, but they're totally different melodies, chords, etc. - everything except the phrasing being somewhat similar. There's a passing similarity at best, I don't think Brian used any elements of "Fire" for "Transcendental Meditation". Anyone agree? Disagree?

Well I always think that hearing the similarities between these songs is fairly subjective so if you don't believe it's enough of a similarity to warrant any significance, then fair enough. It's times like this that I wish I was a musicologist then I could come up with a more persuasive argument!

[Sheriff John Stone]

Yeah, there's no way that intro was meant for H&V.  I mean, it *KIND OF* works as a chase sequence (I stuck it after "You're under arrest!") but it's awkward as all get out.

That whistle intro was DEFINITELY part of Fire.

It was recorded during a H&V session and shares the same master no. 50745 as many other Heroes sections, so I see no reason to place it with Fire other than they sound like they belong together.

You need another reason? When Brian finished SMiLE in 2004, he put the bells and whistles intro before "Mrs. O'Leary's Cow". Isn't that enough to pursuade you? The creator, the author, the man who composed the piece put it there - and now it stands there for history....

[Bicyclerider]

Yeah, there's no way that intro was meant for H&V.  I mean, it *KIND OF* works as a chase sequence (I stuck it after "You're under arrest!") but it's awkward as all get out.

That whistle intro was DEFINITELY part of Fire.

It was recorded during a H&V session and shares the same master no. 50745 as many other Heroes sections, so I see no reason to place it with Fire other than they sound like they belong together.

You need another reason? When Brian finished SMiLE in 2004, he put the bells and whistles intro before "Mrs. O'Leary's Cow". Isn't that enough to pursuade you? The creator, the author, the man who composed the piece put it there - and now it stands there for history....

You're kidding, right?  Brian and others (Van Dyke) repeatedly said that Smile 2004 was NOT an attempt to finish Smile as it would have been in 67.  It was the creation of a Smile "suite" using Smile era music for live performance - which, when it was completed and received rave reviews, became the BWPS album. 

And who put the "intro" before Fire?  That would be David Leaf, without Brian's input, for the projected 1988 Smile release put together with Mark Linett.  This was widely bootlegged, Darian (the "musical secretary" of Smile 2004 who worked with Brian on sequencing) was well aware of this version, and so . . . it became what it is on BWPS.  But to say because it was on BWPS it was meant to be that way on a 67 Smile just doesn't pass muster.  I guess Good Vibrations on Smile 67 would have had Tony Asher's lyrics included as well in place of Mike's?

[Sheriff John Stone]

Yeah, there's no way that intro was meant for H&V.  I mean, it *KIND OF* works as a chase sequence (I stuck it after "You're under arrest!") but it's awkward as all get out.

That whistle intro was DEFINITELY part of Fire.

It was recorded during a H&V session and shares the same master no. 50745 as many other Heroes sections, so I see no reason to place it with Fire other than they sound like they belong together.

You need another reason? When Brian finished SMiLE in 2004, he put the bells and whistles intro before "Mrs. O'Leary's Cow". Isn't that enough to pursuade you? The creator, the author, the man who composed the piece put it there - and now it stands there for history....

You're kidding, right?  Brian and others (Van Dyke) repeatedly said that Smile 2004 was NOT an attempt to finish Smile as it would have been in 67.  It was the creation of a Smile "suite" using Smile era music for live performance - which, when it was completed and received rave reviews, became the BWPS album. 

And who put the "intro" before Fire?  That would be David Leaf, without Brian's input, for the projected 1988 Smile release put together with Mark Linett.  This was widely bootlegged, Darian (the "musical secretary" of Smile 2004 who worked with Brian on sequencing) was well aware of this version, and so . . . it became what it is on BWPS.  But to say because it was on BWPS it was meant to be that way on a 67 Smile just doesn't pass muster.  I guess Good Vibrations on Smile 67 would have had Tony Asher's lyrics included as well in place of Mike's?

Of course I was kidding, but I couldn't resist the opportunity to take a shot at BWPS.

But, why would I be kidding? Go with this for a minute...Brian's laying half asleep on an oversized sofa while Darian is feverishly playing him SMiLE tracks from a laptop. They come to the bells and whistles snippet. Now, that short piece of music has to be one of the most interesting things that Brian Wilson ever recorded. Of all the things that he would remember about SMiLE, that would be up there on the list. Now, if that piece wasn't the intro to "Mrs. O'Leary's Cow", I would think that Brian would "straighten out" the myth, and tell Darian where it belongs. If - if - the bells and whistles was an intro to "Heroes And Villains", or a part that might be to linked to "you're under arrest" or ANYTHING to do with "Heroes And Villains", Brian could SIMPLY tell Darian what he had in mind. Now, you have to admit, that wouldn't be too hard for Brian to do/remember. But, it ended up as the intro to "Mrs. O'Leary's Cow". Doesn't that mean anything? It should....

[The Shift]

Fire is Pt 1.

There is some evidence (namely Carol Kaye's recollection of the sessions) to suggest that I Wanna Be Around/Friday Night was to follow although some dispute this. Personally I think this pairing works very well and if it's true, IWBA and FN could have been a significant part of The Elements - perhaps parts 2 & 3!

Two questions: Based on this sequence, did the fire just "go out" on its own, and then the rebuilding started? Where do you put the "Water Chant"? I think the fire has to be put out (by the water) before the barn is rebuilt. I always connected the "Workshop" to building the home on the range. But that's just one man's opinion....

Fire's stamped out, surely -  the three increasingly louder "bangs" - I think Brian's audibly telling a musician just that on the session tapes.

[The Shift]

Apols -  If I'd read one post further I'd see that had already been referred to!

[buddhahat]

Yeah, there's no way that intro was meant for H&V.  I mean, it *KIND OF* works as a chase sequence (I stuck it after "You're under arrest!") but it's awkward as all get out.

That whistle intro was DEFINITELY part of Fire.

It was recorded during a H&V session and shares the same master no. 50745 as many other Heroes sections, so I see no reason to place it with Fire other than they sound like they belong together.

You need another reason? When Brian finished SMiLE in 2004, he put the bells and whistles intro before "Mrs. O'Leary's Cow". Isn't that enough to pursuade you? The creator, the author, the man who composed the piece put it there - and now it stands there for history....

You're kidding, right?  Brian and others (Van Dyke) repeatedly said that Smile 2004 was NOT an attempt to finish Smile as it would have been in 67.  It was the creation of a Smile "suite" using Smile era music for live performance - which, when it was completed and received rave reviews, became the BWPS album. 

And who put the "intro" before Fire?  That would be David Leaf, without Brian's input, for the projected 1988 Smile release put together with Mark Linett.  This was widely bootlegged, Darian (the "musical secretary" of Smile 2004 who worked with Brian on sequencing) was well aware of this version, and so . . . it became what it is on BWPS.  But to say because it was on BWPS it was meant to be that way on a 67 Smile just doesn't pass muster.  I guess Good Vibrations on Smile 67 would have had Tony Asher's lyrics included as well in place of Mike's?

Of course I was kidding, but I couldn't resist the opportunity to take a shot at BWPS.

But, why would I be kidding? Go with this for a minute...Brian's laying half asleep on an oversized sofa while Darian is feverishly playing him SMiLE tracks from a laptop. They come to the bells and whistles snippet. Now, that short piece of music has to be one of the most interesting things that Brian Wilson ever recorded. Of all the things that he would remember about SMiLE, that would be up there on the list. Now, if that piece wasn't the intro to "Mrs. O'Leary's Cow", I would think that Brian would "straighten out" the myth, and tell Darian where it belongs. If - if - the bells and whistles was an intro to "Heroes And Villains", or a part that might be to linked to "you're under arrest" or ANYTHING to do with "Heroes And Villains", Brian could SIMPLY tell Darian what he had in mind. Now, you have to admit, that wouldn't be too hard for Brian to do/remember. But, it ended up as the intro to "Mrs. O'Leary's Cow". Doesn't that mean anything? It should....

I don't want to get into the whole BWPS vs sessions thing, but why would Brian need to straighten these mistakes out? Maybe he'd forgotten that the whistles intro belonged to Heroes, maybe it was Darian's decision and he had nothing to do with it, or maybe Brian just preferred it preceding Fire. By all accounts Brian decided on putting Look with Wonderful which works beautifully and probably wasn't a vintage sequence, but I don't see that just because he's not making sequence choices that are true to what was planned in 67 that it means he was totally disinterested in the whole project. I'm sure darian had a lot of input in the sequenceing but what does it matter? Imo it's a wonder that we have a Smile that Brian had anything to do with, let alone the fact he wrote new stuff for it, was involved in the sequencing (I think he was more involved than people give him credit for - just my hunch but there you go) and remembered the melody to Worms. Maybe I'm just easily pleased!

[A Million Units In Jan!]

As somebody said earlier, 'I think my head just exploded'....

[Sheriff John Stone]

Yeah, there's no way that intro was meant for H&V.  I mean, it *KIND OF* works as a chase sequence (I stuck it after "You're under arrest!") but it's awkward as all get out.

That whistle intro was DEFINITELY part of Fire.

It was recorded during a H&V session and shares the same master no. 50745 as many other Heroes sections, so I see no reason to place it with Fire other than they sound like they belong together.

You need another reason? When Brian finished SMiLE in 2004, he put the bells and whistles intro before "Mrs. O'Leary's Cow". Isn't that enough to pursuade you? The creator, the author, the man who composed the piece put it there - and now it stands there for history....

You're kidding, right?  Brian and others (Van Dyke) repeatedly said that Smile 2004 was NOT an attempt to finish Smile as it would have been in 67.  It was the creation of a Smile "suite" using Smile era music for live performance - which, when it was completed and received rave reviews, became the BWPS album. 

And who put the "intro" before Fire?  That would be David Leaf, without Brian's input, for the projected 1988 Smile release put together with Mark Linett.  This was widely bootlegged, Darian (the "musical secretary" of Smile 2004 who worked with Brian on sequencing) was well aware of this version, and so . . . it became what it is on BWPS.  But to say because it was on BWPS it was meant to be that way on a 67 Smile just doesn't pass muster.  I guess Good Vibrations on Smile 67 would have had Tony Asher's lyrics included as well in place of Mike's?

Of course I was kidding, but I couldn't resist the opportunity to take a shot at BWPS.

But, why would I be kidding? Go with this for a minute...Brian's laying half asleep on an oversized sofa while Darian is feverishly playing him SMiLE tracks from a laptop. They come to the bells and whistles snippet. Now, that short piece of music has to be one of the most interesting things that Brian Wilson ever recorded. Of all the things that he would remember about SMiLE, that would be up there on the list. Now, if that piece wasn't the intro to "Mrs. O'Leary's Cow", I would think that Brian would "straighten out" the myth, and tell Darian where it belongs. If - if - the bells and whistles was an intro to "Heroes And Villains", or a part that might be to linked to "you're under arrest" or ANYTHING to do with "Heroes And Villains", Brian could SIMPLY tell Darian what he had in mind. Now, you have to admit, that wouldn't be too hard for Brian to do/remember. But, it ended up as the intro to "Mrs. O'Leary's Cow". Doesn't that mean anything? It should....

...but why would Brian need to straighten these mistakes out? Maybe he'd forgotten that the whistles intro belonged to Heroes, maybe it was Darian's decision and he had nothing to do with it, or maybe Brian just preferred it preceding Fire.

I'm not saying Brian HAS to straighten out anything. I'm just offering thoughts and looking for answers about The Elements, which, I believe, was the intent of this thread. We now have a completed SMiLE CD (BWPS) which was recorded with Brian's full participation. He had every opportunity to make it the way HE wanted it. While I personally give little merit to it, many do, and I just offerred one example (take it or leave it) to use as a reference.

In addressing your above post, if Brian FORGOT that the bells and whistles intro belonged to "Heroes And Villains" (if it in fact ever did), then Brian was more gone and even less qualified to be finishing SMiLE than even I thought. Second, obviously Brian DID prefer it where it ended up; why else would he allow it? That was a rhetorical question. I already have a few answers of my own. But, it's there, and nobody can change that now. Except on our personal SMiLE mixes...

[?]

Personally, I think Brian abandoned The Elements long before he abandoned Smile.  I doubt he ever got deep enough into it to have a firm concept in place.  He worked on some pieces, they weren't finished for whatever reason(s), and then it was back to playing with Heroes.  The problem with looking for evidence relating to anything Smile is that there simply is nothing that can be taken as gospel.  The only thing anyone can ever pin down is what Brian was thinking on a particular day, at that particular moment.  A day later and it would be something completely different.

[buddhahat]

Personally, I think Brian abandoned The Elements long before he abandoned Smile.  I doubt he ever got deep enough into it to have a firm concept in place.  He worked on some pieces, they weren't finished for whatever reason(s), and then it was back to playing with Heroes.  The problem with looking for evidence relating to anything Smile is that there simply is nothing that can be taken as gospel.  The only thing anyone can ever pin down is what Brian was thinking on a particular day, at that particular moment.  A day later and it would be something completely different.

Yes good point. It'd be interesting to establish what certainties existed for Smile, even if they were just fleeting ones e.g

Our Prayer was an intro to the album at the point of its session.
Fire was pt 1 of either Fire, or The Elements, at the time of its session.
The 12 tracks on the list submitted to Capitol in December were, at that point, the tracks that made up Smile.
Surf's Up was to be the closer (according to Vosse)

Unfortunately I don't think there's much more besides this!