B.W. Presents SMiLE in 3 movements. Yes - but what ARE they???

[Sheriff John Stone]

I hated to disagree with Brian, but what's he know about it. We're the real experts on what he was thinking.

I'm a twelve tracker too. What has supposedly been connective links are really just H&V tracks. Every available song has a fade. Brian was into movements within songs but I still don't see an evidence of anything movement-like within the album. Americana theme in the lyrics of a few songs, sure.

On the other hand, if you wanted to call a few collections of a few separate faded individual songs on the same album a "movement", nothing would stop you I suppose and you could say the album had movements.

Many years ago, I asked VDP how Smile was going to be sequenced, and his reply was prompt: single album, twelve tracks, banded, no crossfades/segues between tracks, but one track with internal crossfades. That's what he was lead to understand.

And so was Capitol Records.

[A Million Units In Jan!]

I hated to disagree with Brian, but what's he know about it. We're the real experts on what he was thinking.

I'm a twelve tracker too. What has supposedly been connective links are really just H&V tracks. Every available song has a fade. Brian was into movements within songs but I still don't see an evidence of anything movement-like within the album. Americana theme in the lyrics of a few songs, sure.

On the other hand, if you wanted to call a few collections of a few separate faded individual songs on the same album a "movement", nothing would stop you I suppose and you could say the album had movements.

Many years ago, I asked VDP how Smile was going to be sequenced, and his reply was prompt: single album, twelve tracks, banded, no crossfades/segues between tracks, but one track with internal crossfades. That's what he was lead to understand.

And so was Capitol Records.

Domenic Priore would disagree.

[Mike's Beard]

Was Sgt Pepper viewed as a concept album? The only link/theme I can find within the tracks is that they are all insanely overrated! 

How dare you sir!     Them's boomer fightin' words. 

HaHa!! Thought I'd need a bulletproof laptop to type that!  

Back to the subject ; I think any reoccurring lyrical themes within Smile (not BWSP) are much more lightly to be a result of what Brian and VDP were interested in conversation wise at the time seeping into their work rather than a well defined grand concept.

[buddhahat]

I hated to disagree with Brian, but what's he know about it. We're the real experts on what he was thinking.

I'm a twelve tracker too. What has supposedly been connective links are really just H&V tracks. Every available song has a fade. Brian was into movements within songs but I still don't see an evidence of anything movement-like within the album. Americana theme in the lyrics of a few songs, sure.

On the other hand, if you wanted to call a few collections of a few separate faded individual songs on the same album a "movement", nothing would stop you I suppose and you could say the album had movements.

Many years ago, I asked VDP how Smile was going to be sequenced, and his reply was prompt: single album, twelve tracks, banded, no crossfades/segues between tracks, but one track with internal crossfades. That's what he was lead to understand.

I'd forgotten this AGD. So presumably The Elements was the track with planned crossfades?

I remember this sparking another debate in the past - Would Brian have been doing crossfades at this time?!

[Andrew G. Doe]

I hated to disagree with Brian, but what's he know about it. We're the real experts on what he was thinking.

I'm a twelve tracker too. What has supposedly been connective links are really just H&V tracks. Every available song has a fade. Brian was into movements within songs but I still don't see an evidence of anything movement-like within the album. Americana theme in the lyrics of a few songs, sure.

On the other hand, if you wanted to call a few collections of a few separate faded individual songs on the same album a "movement", nothing would stop you I suppose and you could say the album had movements.

Many years ago, I asked VDP how Smile was going to be sequenced, and his reply was prompt: single album, twelve tracks, banded, no crossfades/segues between tracks, but one track with internal crossfades. That's what he was lead to understand.

And so was Capitol Records.

Domenic Priore would disagree.

Doubtless. 

Dom was 4 in 1966... Van Dyke was 23.

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

[PaulTMA]

I hated to disagree with Brian, but what's he know about it. We're the real experts on what he was thinking.

A post undeniably retarded beyond compassionate discharge

[runnersdialzero]

Disagree about the amount of Smile vs BWPS threads though, I could easily go another 8,398.

Meh. Smile needs its own sub-forum, here, and another Smile sub-forum where people can complain endlessly about Brian not being on LSD and not reverting back to his 25 year old self and not resurrecting Carl and Dennis for BWPS.

[Bean Bag]

Many years ago, I asked VDP how Smile was going to be sequenced, and his reply was prompt: single album, twelve tracks, banded, no crossfades/segues between tracks, but one track with internal crossfades. That's what he was lead to understand.

Wow.  I didn't know that.  Damn...I don't know plop.

So...one question -- what does "one track with internal crossfades" mean exactly?  What's banded?  Like all stuck together...bam, bam, bam?

[Andrew G. Doe]

Many years ago, I asked VDP how Smile was going to be sequenced, and his reply was prompt: single album, twelve tracks, banded, no crossfades/segues between tracks, but one track with internal crossfades. That's what he was lead to understand.

Wow.  I didn't know that.  Damn...I don't know plop.

So...one question -- what does "one track with internal crossfades" mean exactly?  What's banded?  Like all stuck together...bam, bam, bam?

'Banded' as in each track separated from the next. 'Internal crossfades' as in disparate sections of music flowing one into another within on track.

[runnersdialzero]

Referring to "The Elements".

[A Million Units In Jan!]

I hated to disagree with Brian, but what's he know about it. We're the real experts on what he was thinking.

I'm a twelve tracker too. What has supposedly been connective links are really just H&V tracks. Every available song has a fade. Brian was into movements within songs but I still don't see an evidence of anything movement-like within the album. Americana theme in the lyrics of a few songs, sure.

On the other hand, if you wanted to call a few collections of a few separate faded individual songs on the same album a "movement", nothing would stop you I suppose and you could say the album had movements.

Many years ago, I asked VDP how Smile was going to be sequenced, and his reply was prompt: single album, twelve tracks, banded, no crossfades/segues between tracks, but one track with internal crossfades. That's what he was lead to understand.

And so was Capitol Records.

Domenic Priore would disagree.

Doubtless. 

Dom was 4 in 1966... Van Dyke was 23.

That doesn't matter....do you KNOW who Domenic Priore is? He knows ALL 

[Cam Mott]

I hated to disagree with Brian, but what's he know about it. We're the real experts on what he was thinking.

A post undeniably retarded beyond compassionate discharge

Thanks for noticing.

[A Million Units In Jan!]

I hated to disagree with Brian, but what's he know about it. We're the real experts on what he was thinking.

A post undeniably retarded beyond compassionate discharge

12 posts, and it's official; you're an idiot.

[Mike's Beard]

I hated to disagree with Brian, but what's he know about it. We're the real experts on what he was thinking.

A post undeniably retarded beyond compassionate discharge

Sarcasm not your strong point eh?  

[Paulos]

I hated to disagree with Brian, but what's he know about it. We're the real experts on what he was thinking.

I'm a twelve tracker too. What has supposedly been connective links are really just H&V tracks. Every available song has a fade. Brian was into movements within songs but I still don't see an evidence of anything movement-like within the album. Americana theme in the lyrics of a few songs, sure.

On the other hand, if you wanted to call a few collections of a few separate faded individual songs on the same album a "movement", nothing would stop you I suppose and you could say the album had movements.

Many years ago, I asked VDP how Smile was going to be sequenced, and his reply was prompt: single album, twelve tracks, banded, no crossfades/segues between tracks, but one track with internal crossfades. That's what he was lead to understand.

And so was Capitol Records.

Domenic Priore would disagree.

Doubtless. 

Dom was 4 in 1966... Van Dyke was 23.

That doesn't matter....do you KNOW who Domenic Priore is? He knows ALL 

For proof of Priore's supreme knowledge regarding all things SMiLE, read his amazingly well written and entirely accurate book 'Smile: The Story Of Brian's Wilson's Lost Masterpiece'.











DISCLAIMER: I am of course being sarcastic but as some people seem to be having sarcasm difficulties I thought I would make this clear   

[runnersdialzero]

I hated to disagree with Brian, but what's he know about it. We're the real experts on what he was thinking.

A post undeniably retarded beyond compassionate discharge

12 posts, and it's official; you're an idiot.

But what he said was true

[A Million Units In Jan!]

I hated to disagree with Brian, but what's he know about it. We're the real experts on what he was thinking.

A post undeniably retarded beyond compassionate discharge

12 posts, and it's official; you're an idiot.

But what he said was true

Ding! Another one! I guess you have to point out when you're being sarcastic around here these days.

[Reverend Rock]

This is the conversation that never ends...

I've concluded in my own mind that it was all for the best--perhaps even some kind of divine intervention--that SMiLE was not released in 1967.  It really needed to be the kind of incredible long-form work that it ended up being in 2004, and it probably wouldn't have been that in '67, no matter what had happened.  

My guess is that VDP is absolutely correct about the plan for the album.  The use of segues and crossfading was probably not something Brian was thinking of.  If he had been, then why would he not have used such gimmicks on Smiley Smile?  By then there was even the precedent of Sgt. Pepper to use as a template--OK, one could argue that may have been precisely why Brian didn't do it on Smiley Smile, and anyway, before BWPS, I don't think either Brian or the BBs have ever used segues or crossfades, so there's really no reason to think it was ever in consideration for SMiLE in 1967. (OK, one exception, the "California Saga" on Holland...I can't think of any others...)

As for the original question...I think it may be intentional that the "movements" aren't given official titles on the album.  Like many symphonies are given "titles" by the general public (such as Beethoven's Eroica or Mahler's Symphony of a Thousand--names these works are known by but were not named by the composers), the movements will probably come to be known as "1. Americana  2. Cycle of Life  3. Elements".  And that's as good as anything.

I so very much enjoy the whole musical journey that SMiLE has become.  Really, what we have is grand and great beyond anything we could have hoped for.  There is this wonderful, magical body of work from the 1960s that we call SMiLE, that is forever a jigsaw puzzle for us to play with on our computers and wonder about.  Then there is this wonderful, magical finished work from 2004 that is everything I could have ever hoped for SMiLE to be.  I guess not everybody agrees with me on that one, but I am just very grateful I lived to see it all come to fruition.

[Wirestone]

It would have worked as a 12-track album, assuming Brian finished and polished everything to the degree of H&V and Cabinessence as they finally appeared. The themes would have been subtler, no doubt, with the Americana exception, which is hard to ignore.

The three-movement structure was necessitated by the fragmentary nature of the surviving parts and the necessity of making a somewhat theatrical live performance (no way that fire would have given way to Van Dyke's "Brian in the present" couplets in 67). That being said, the themes were all there to begin with, VDP's new words are relatively well chosen, and the musicality is top notch. It works astonishingly well for what it is. It seems inevitable.

I suspect the movements -- or themes -- or concepts of the movements and themes -- were in Brian's head in the 60s, and I suspect he thought about them from time to time afterward. I don't think he sequenced it in the early 80s in secret or anything, but I think he's more aware of the connections in the music than we sometimes give him credit for.

(Example? 'Til I Die. Each verse is one of the four elements, with the exception of fire.)

[Andrew G. Doe]

and anyway, before BWPS, I don't think either Brian or the BBs have ever used segues or crossfades...

"Cool, Cool Water" 

[Reverend Rock]

and anyway, before BWPS, I don't think either Brian or the BBs have ever used segues or crossfades...

"Cool, Cool Water" 

Yeah, I know, but what I meant was segueing or crossfading otherwise separate songs on an album ala Sgt. Pepper or the Moody Blues' albums.

[Andrew G. Doe]

and anyway, before BWPS, I don't think either Brian or the BBs have ever used segues or crossfades...

"Cool, Cool Water" 

Yeah, I know, but what I meant was segueing or crossfading otherwise separate songs on an album ala Sgt. Pepper or the Moody Blues' albums.

Didn't say that...  just said "ever used segues or crossfades".

[Mahalo]

(Example? 'Til I Die. Each verse is one of the four elements, with the exception of fire.)

Brilliant observation, now I have a whole new appreciation and understanding of this work of genius...

[Chris Brown]

(Example? 'Til I Die. Each verse is one of the four elements, with the exception of fire.)

Brilliant observation, now I have a whole new appreciation and understanding of this work of genius...

I never noticed that either.  Til I Die really is Brian's finest moment as a lyricist I'd say.