B.W. Presents SMiLE in 3 movements. Yes - but what ARE they???

[rasmus skotte]

Peter Reum and Bill Tobelman must have been the first (and maybe still only) ones to name them individually. They can be compared and evaluated in the following illustration where they respectively form most of the headlines in the top:
www.dywizjadania.dk//data/images/flag/Smile%202.doc

But do we need them - or  other groupings to really appreciate and understand SMiLE? And has it changed in the 5 years since 2004?

[A Million Units In Jan!]

I never think of SMiLE in movements. I had problems downloading the link, so I don't know exactly what was there; however, what would the movements be? Americana, Cycle of Life, and Elements? I recognize these things within the songs, but I've never really given the idea of concrete 'movements' any real thought. I mean, I realize that's how BWPS is presented, but in terms of original SMiLE, I don't think there was a real 'these songs are the X movement, these are the Y movement, and this last bit is the Z movement'. 

[Mike's Beard]

I too never think of Smile as separate movements. I just think of it as one whole album. The whole differnet linked themes to me just sounds like pretentious bollocks.

[Sheriff John Stone]

The whole differnet linked themes to me just sounds like pretentious bollocks.

"Sounds" like pretentious bollocks? Forget "sounds". It's now reality. That's the way it was FINISHED - by Brian Wilson. He told us so.

[A Million Units In Jan!]

The whole differnet linked themes to me just sounds like pretentious bollocks.

"Sounds" like pretentious bollocks? Forget "sounds". It's now reality. That's the way it was FINISHED - by Brian Wilson. He told us so.

So you don't think that there was going to be ANY connection between the songs? I at least think that there was going to be the Americana connection between SOME of the songs-only because that's how it worked out, and I think they got a bit of a roll going with a couple of the Americana subjects.  I don't believe that they sat down and purposely said 'Let's make an album about America'. For some reason, it doesn't sit right with me. No reason not to believe it mind you, just a gut feeling.

[Sheriff John Stone]

The whole differnet linked themes to me just sounds like pretentious bollocks.

"Sounds" like pretentious bollocks? Forget "sounds". It's now reality. That's the way it was FINISHED - by Brian Wilson. He told us so.

So you don't think that there was going to be ANY connection between the songs? I at least think that there was going to be the Americana connection between SOME of the songs-only because that's how it worked out, and I think they got a bit of a roll going with a couple of the Americana subjects.  I don't believe that they sat down and purposely said 'Let's make an album about America'. For some reason, it doesn't sit right with me. No reason not to believe it mind you, just a gut feeling.

Connections between songs? Yes, SOME connections with a few songs. Movements? No, but I'm a believer in the 12 stand alone song SMiLE.

[The Shift]

I'm swayed by the Americana theme: the Plymouth Rock settlers landing; the Cabinessence settlement of the West; the Wild West of Heroes and Villains; even the carriage across the fog, two-step to lamplight cellar tune, which conjures up an image of the refined city dwellers at the time of the Wild West.

WHat seems missing to me, as a Brit reared on Hollywood's version of US history, is a Gold Rush tale...

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

I think my head just exploded.

[A Million Units In Jan!]

The whole differnet linked themes to me just sounds like pretentious bollocks.

"Sounds" like pretentious bollocks? Forget "sounds". It's now reality. That's the way it was FINISHED - by Brian Wilson. He told us so.

So you don't think that there was going to be ANY connection between the songs? I at least think that there was going to be the Americana connection between SOME of the songs-only because that's how it worked out, and I think they got a bit of a roll going with a couple of the Americana subjects.  I don't believe that they sat down and purposely said 'Let's make an album about America'. For some reason, it doesn't sit right with me. No reason not to believe it mind you, just a gut feeling.

Connections between songs? Yes, SOME connections with a few songs. Movements? No, but I'm a believer in the 12 stand alone song SMiLE.

That pretty much sums it up for me! A 12 song SMiLE believer. With the Americana element in a handful of songs.

[buddhahat]

I think there's a possibility that movements, or at least themes that united songs, existed in 66/67, even if Brian revised the idea and opted for 12 separate tracks towards the end of the project. I'm sure I read somewhere that one of the initial concepts for dumb angel was a cycle of life theme. I may have remembered this wrong. There're certainly hints of a thematic unity between wonderful, child and surf's up. Child contains the cycle of life within 1 song, surf's up references this in the coda, and SU also references wonderful, although not sure if that was designed or a happy coincidence. I'd opt for the former.

Americana theme exists in worms, heroes, great shape, OMP, cabinessence, and possibly child if you consider dennis' cowboy song quote.

I don't necessarily think they just plucked these suite ideas out of thin air in 04. Also Peter reum is adamant that Brian desctibed suites for smile in the 80s or something. There is a lot of unity within groups of songs in smile and it seems a little blinkered imo to just assume they were 12 separate tracks and that's as far as it goes.

[Cam Mott]

I hated to disagree with Brian, but what's he know about it. We're the real experts on what he was thinking.

I'm a twelve tracker too. What has supposedly been connective links are really just H&V tracks. Every available song has a fade. Brian was into movements within songs but I still don't see an evidence of anything movement-like within the album. Americana theme in the lyrics of a few songs, sure.

On the other hand, if you wanted to call a few collections of a few separate faded individual songs on the same album a "movement", nothing would stop you I suppose and you could say the album had movements.

[runnersdialzero]

Let's turn this into yet another potential 1967 Smile versus BWPS thread, four hundred just aren't enough.

I hated to disagree with Brian, but what's he know about it. We're the real experts on what he was thinking.

...

[OneEar/OneEye]

IMO the entire album was to have been an "American trip".  Culture at the time was so Anglo-cized it was in part Brian and Van Dyke's reaction against that.   That's my feeling anyway.   
As far as movements go, it's got them now (in BWPS), but back then I believe it would've been 12 tracks, the tracks having movements (like GV) with musical themes being repeated through out the album. 
The possibility exists though that each sides tracks could have flowed into each other to form two album side suites (or three suites on two sides if you like).  Just because a song has a definite fade doesn't mean it couldn't have been segued with another track (or link track if you like) does it?  I don't know, you tell me. 
I'm thinking of how the Moody Blues albums used to fade and segue that way. 

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

Let's turn this into yet another potential 1967 Smile versus BWPS thread, four hundred just aren't enough.

Word. Sometimes music is just music. I'm still waiting for a deep analytical discussion of Brian's sh*t.

[buddhahat]

Every available song has a fade.

Do you mean by fade, an extended section (as in the tag to windchimes) that could have had a fade applied to it? Who's to say Brian wouldn't have done a jump edit straight into something else that could've created a sense of continuous movement? Something akin to the first songs of Sgt Pepper? This may have been the initial idea, and then he decided on 12 tracks with fades further on down the line, or perhaps some songs were connected and some were not, like pepper. I can appreciate there's no solid evidence to back this up other than heresay, but is there any strong evidence to disprove the interlinked songs theory entirely?

Look always makes me wonder about Brian's intentions. It starts (unless it has been re-edited by bootleggers) with what sounds like a bridge. It also repeats the GV riff. It's one of the early songs recorded so makes me think that maybe at first he planned interlinked songs.

[PaulTMA]

Let's turn this into yet another potential 1967 Smile versus BWPS thread, four hundred just aren't enough.

Word. Sometimes music is just music. I'm still waiting for a deep analytical discussion of Brian's merda.

Well what would Brian know about Brian's merda?   We're the experts in that department, in fact I gobbled up a whole one in 1957 therefore I know best.  Still got the newspaper somewhere.

Disagree about the amount of Smile vs BWPS threads though, I could easily go another 8,398.

[absinthe_boy]

I call them the First Movement, the Second Movement and the Third Movement.

[Cam Mott]

Do you mean by fade, an extended section (as in the tag to windchimes) that could have had a fade applied to it? Who's to say Brian wouldn't have done a jump edit straight into something else that could've created a sense of continuous movement? Something akin to the first songs of Sgt Pepper? This may have been the initial idea, and then he decided on 12 tracks with fades further on down the line, or perhaps some songs were connected and some were not, like pepper. I can appreciate there's no solid evidence to back this up other than heresay, but is there any strong evidence to disprove the interlinked songs theory entirely?

Yes? Me and my opinion. Whose to say he would...you know...besides Brian? Well, I can't prove a negative, but no evidence of it back in the day seems like pretty strong evidence imo. Still, I can allow that Brian may have thought of the songs in some grouping that he considered movements in his own mind or maybe someday a master for SMiLE will be discovered all linked together with H&V sections and butt edits into 3 themed movements . I'm cool with it either way.

[Cam Mott]

I call them the First Movement, the Second Movement and the Third Movement.

*ba dump bump*

[Mike's Beard]

Frankly the whole notion of three movements each on a different theme skates perilously close to "THE CONCEPT ALBUM". There have been a handful of good ones over the years but generally any time an artist feels the need to link a cycle of songs to a specific theme or (shudder) "storyline" I usually run for the hills. Isn't good music for the sake of music not enough?

[Bicyclerider]

Yeah, no movements - what Brian calls movements now were what we'd call "themes" back in 67 - there was an Americana theme running through many songs, a "childhood" theme (Child is the Father, Surf's Up, Wonderful), an Elements/nature theme (The Elements, Vegetables, Wind Chimes, I'm in Great Shape).

So when the decision was made for Brian to perform a "Smile suite" live, it was natural to group songs by themes and turn them into movements.  When Brian referred to some of the "movements" being essentially finished (Americana) and others needing work, that reflected the state of completion of the song in the thematic "movements."  The Americana songs were the most finished.

[Cam Mott]

The Boomer in me wants it to be more Sgt.-Peppery than Sgt. Pepper's but I just can't see any back-in-the-day evidence for it.

[Mike's Beard]

Was Sgt Pepper viewed as a concept album? The only link/theme I can find within the tracks is that they are all insanely overrated! 

[Cam Mott]

Was Sgt Pepper viewed as a concept album? The only link/theme I can find within the tracks is that they are all insanely overrated! 

How dare you sir!     Them's boomer fightin' words. 

[Andrew G. Doe]

I hated to disagree with Brian, but what's he know about it. We're the real experts on what he was thinking.

I'm a twelve tracker too. What has supposedly been connective links are really just H&V tracks. Every available song has a fade. Brian was into movements within songs but I still don't see an evidence of anything movement-like within the album. Americana theme in the lyrics of a few songs, sure.

On the other hand, if you wanted to call a few collections of a few separate faded individual songs on the same album a "movement", nothing would stop you I suppose and you could say the album had movements.

Many years ago, I asked VDP how Smile was going to be sequenced, and his reply was prompt: single album, twelve tracks, banded, no crossfades/segues between tracks, but one track with internal crossfades. That's what he was lead to understand.