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Author Topic: Hey Little Tomboy/MIU Brian  (Read 14380 times)
Wirestone
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« Reply #75 on: January 04, 2011, 12:45:55 PM »

Elton has actually got better over the last year or so -- his vocals on the Leon Russell collab are quite good, and he seems to be doing some interesting stuff in concert: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DxMqevZ1e3Q&sns=em (note some of the higher range stuff).
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« Reply #76 on: January 04, 2011, 12:57:14 PM »

Elton has actually got better over the last year or so -- his vocals on the Leon Russell collab are quite good, and he seems to be doing some interesting stuff in concert: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DxMqevZ1e3Q&sns=em (note some of the higher range stuff).

Well... that's definitely interesting, but I'm sure glad I didn't pay anything to hear it. He using pretty much every trick in the book to cover his vocal shortcomings. Listening to "Don't Let The Sun..." now and oh my, it's like hearing a bad Vegas lounge act.  Sad
« Last Edit: January 04, 2011, 01:01:45 PM by Andrew G. Doe » Logged

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Fall Breaks
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« Reply #77 on: January 04, 2011, 01:18:48 PM »

Oh darn it. That takes away something from that song, doesn't it?

Why ? Exactly the same harp as it was yesterday, before you knew this. That's a very Bloo-ish response - "oh, not Brian so it can't be as good".  Wall
Because I experience different things listening to a harp (I assume is) played by Brian Wilson than what I do listening to a harp played by a studio musician whom I haven't read dozens of books about, haven't met and don't even know how he looks. Also, I thought I heard Brian play a great harmonica line, which impressed me since the only (?) time I had heard him play harmonica before was "Susie Cincinnati" which is a much simpler part. Thirdly, I enjoyed hearing a prominent Brian Wilson performance (as in lead vocal and/or easily audible instrument) from an album that he isn't that present, or at least prominently audible, on. Fourthly, if that's a word, that harmonica line sounds so free and so full of life that I sometimes could get genuinely moved hearing it, wondering how Brian could kick in such a performance at that troubled time of his life.

That's why. The harp line is just as good as it was yesterday. It just affects me differently.

This is one of the best posts I have ever read on this board.  I have always been attached to the idea that Brian was the harmonica player on SAW -- and my feelings on learning that it is not true are exactly the same as yours, Fall Breaks.  Thank you.
Yay! Someone understands me!  Cheesy

As to why '64 and not '63 for Brian's mature vocal period...YMMV.  I did use "awesome" as opposed to "very good."  To me there's a difference between the sensitivity of the vocal on "Please Let Me Wonder" as opposed to just the energy of a "Farmer's Daughter."  "The Lonely Sea" might be a better apples to apples comparison...it's very moving but there's another level of skill and sophistication to the singing that you hear on the TODAY tracks.  But I admit it's kind of an arbitrary distinction.
I see what you mean, Adam. And as you say, it's an arbitrary distinction, and Brian's progress as a singer wasn't all straight. Compare "Keep an Eye on Summer", recorded February 19, 1964 to "The Warmth of the Sun", recorded January 8. To me, TWOFTS is a better lead vocal - definitely awesome as compared to the very good delivery on KAEOS.
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"I think people should write better melodies and sing a little sweeter, and knock off that stupid rap crap, y’know? Rap is really ridiculous" -- Brian Wilson, 2010
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« Reply #78 on: January 04, 2011, 01:23:39 PM »

I see what you mean, Adam. And as you say, it's an arbitrary distinction, and Brian's progress as a singer wasn't all straight. Compare "Keep an Eye on Summer", recorded February 19, 1964 to "The Warmth of the Sun", recorded January 8. To me, TWOFTS is a better lead vocal - definitely awesome as compared to the very good delivery on KAEOS.

...Some songs are just more inspired.
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« Reply #79 on: January 04, 2011, 01:31:19 PM »

I see what you mean, Adam. And as you say, it's an arbitrary distinction, and Brian's progress as a singer wasn't all straight. Compare "Keep an Eye on Summer", recorded February 19, 1964 to "The Warmth of the Sun", recorded January 8. To me, TWOFTS is a better lead vocal - definitely awesome as compared to the very good delivery on KAEOS.

...Some songs are just more inspired.
True. And it's easier to sing a great song in an ass-kicking way than a more anonymous number. Could the generally higher quality of the songs from 1964-67 than 1963 have had an impact on Brian's vocal performance?

Discuss.  Smiley
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"I think people should write better melodies and sing a little sweeter, and knock off that stupid rap crap, y’know? Rap is really ridiculous" -- Brian Wilson, 2010
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« Reply #80 on: January 04, 2011, 05:52:49 PM »

Elton has actually got better over the last year or so -- his vocals on the Leon Russell collab are quite good, and he seems to be doing some interesting stuff in concert: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DxMqevZ1e3Q&sns=em (note some of the higher range stuff).

Eh.  I'm a pretty big Elton geek (check my schedule for January 15th), and I hear what you're talking about, but I'm not really impressed.  His voice even ten years ago was miles clearer and more flexible than it is now.  He lost a lot of his range in the years following his throat surgery, but he still had good tone and control.  Now he has one mode, which is old blues dude.  (I actually reinforced this opinion just last night by listening to exactly the clip you posted here)

Getting ready for the show on Jan. 15th was an interesting point of contrast, working out "I Want Love" as well as a bundle of his early stuff.  Harmonically, "I Want Love" has a lot of interesting stuff going on, but it's not as noticeable or as engaging because the melodic range of the vocal is so limited.  That's a lot of what I loved about Elton's old work AND the Beach Boys...the drama and emotion and interest of these great swoops of melody that you get from having a tenor register.

That said, I saw a recent video of him doing "I Guess That's Why They Call It The Blues" with some young singer and the dude was just AWFUL.  ATROCIOUS.  And as much as I'm not into Elton's current mode of singing, I was begging for him to pick up the verse and kick the guy off the stage.  

So I'm not saying he doesn't have something to give, but the guy has trashed his voice pretty hard.  I also suspect the guy is suffering from some severe, and undiagnosed, sinus issues.  I've had similar problems that had been a hidden factor in making it difficult to hit high notes until I figured it out...and if you watch carefully, the guy is always blowing air up into his ears by holding his nose.  That's a sure sign he's got sinus problems, and given my experience with high priced ENTs, I bet no one's spelled out the direct connection between that and his singing issues.  But that's exactly what it looks AND sounds like.

Elton if you read this...get a CT scan of the sinuses, and get a neti pot!  You'll thank me the next time you have to sing "Goodbye Yellow Brick Road."
« Last Edit: January 04, 2011, 06:07:07 PM by adamghost » Logged
TdHabib
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« Reply #81 on: January 04, 2011, 06:04:37 PM »

"Birds" from West Coast is one of my favorite latter-day Elton songs Adam, that's the last album Elton has a decently clear voice on and he sings really well on that song in particular.
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I like the Beatles a bit more than the Boys of Beach, I think Brian's band is the tops---really amazing. And finally, I'm liberal. That's it.
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« Reply #82 on: January 04, 2011, 06:13:02 PM »

Agreed.  That's a good one...and he uses his baritone register well on that whole record.  The next two albums are a tough go for me because of the vocals, even though C&TK has some good songs.

It's too bad it's such a meh album, because Elton's vocals on THE BIG PICTURE are so close to getting back to his heyday, kind of an MIU of sorts for him.  Some wonderful soaring stuff on there, and live stuff from around that time is great too...check out his duets with Brian on "God Only Knows" and "Wouldn't It Be Nice," his "Still The One" with Shania Twain, his live by request version of "Philadelphia Freedom" where he actually grabs some top notes he'd been cheating on for years.  His voice was rocking in '98-'99.  I wonder what happened after?  You can hear the decline in just the two years to SFTWC, and much worse after that.  It could be simply that by reaching for past glories in that two year stretch, he burnt the rest of his voice out.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2011, 06:16:24 PM by adamghost » Logged
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« Reply #83 on: January 04, 2011, 06:30:46 PM »

You know, I have Big Picture but I never seriously listened to it aside from "Something About the Way..." (a very good track), I might have to dig it out soon for the vocals. The "God Only Knows" and "WIBN" with Brian are from 2001, and he sounds great, in fact I've taken a little of his phrasing on the latter when I sing it myself:) And while we're on the topic, if you listen to "Tinderbox" from C&TK, it approaches his best work (it's a great melody and lyric for one) but he's just a tad too gruff on it to make it a classic. So close, though.
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I like the Beatles a bit more than the Boys of Beach, I think Brian's band is the tops---really amazing. And finally, I'm liberal. That's it.
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« Reply #84 on: January 04, 2011, 07:02:33 PM »

Adam -- Frankly, I wonder if many of Elton's vocal issues are quite simple (although the sinus theory is an interesting one). I had cassette tapes, back in the day, of a show he did at MSG in 95. He sounded terrible -- everything low and barky. Clearly that didn't affect how he sounded on the Big Picture.

I think two things happened. First, he changed producers. Chris Thomas did almost all the 80s and much of the 90s stuff, and he was apparently one of those stitch-together-words kinds of producers. His style was arguably too slick, but he knew how to make EJ sound good. Afterward, EJ started producing himself -- and I wonder if the rawness in C&TK isn't something he liked.

Second, he started recording while he was touring. From what I've heard, these last couple of albums were done as he headed to and from shows. (Dylan has had that problem with some recent albums too.) The voice wasn't rested. That being said, I think The Union is a great piece of work, and EJ sounds great to me. But I'm also a Waits and late Dylan guy, so my tolerance for gruffness at all levels is probably atypical.

Frankly, the thing that bugs me about latter-day Elton is that he has some really cliched piano stuff that he does -- whenever he's playing mostly solo, there are certain arpeggiated patterns he _always_ plays. No matter the song. Drives me up the wall. Brian isn't much of a pianist, but at least the wall-of-chords style doesn't allow for that.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2011, 07:12:22 PM by Wirestone » Logged
adamghost
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« Reply #85 on: January 05, 2011, 01:02:41 AM »

Adam -- Frankly, I wonder if many of Elton's vocal issues are quite simple (although the sinus theory is an interesting one). I had cassette tapes, back in the day, of a show he did at MSG in 95. He sounded terrible -- everything low and barky. Clearly that didn't affect how he sounded on the Big Picture.

I think two things happened. First, he changed producers. Chris Thomas did almost all the 80s and much of the 90s stuff, and he was apparently one of those stitch-together-words kinds of producers. His style was arguably too slick, but he knew how to make EJ sound good. Afterward, EJ started producing himself -- and I wonder if the rawness in C&TK isn't something he liked.

Second, he started recording while he was touring. From what I've heard, these last couple of albums were done as he headed to and from shows. (Dylan has had that problem with some recent albums too.) The voice wasn't rested. That being said, I think The Union is a great piece of work, and EJ sounds great to me. But I'm also a Waits and late Dylan guy, so my tolerance for gruffness at all levels is probably atypical.

Frankly, the thing that bugs me about latter-day Elton is that he has some really cliched piano stuff that he does -- whenever he's playing mostly solo, there are certain arpeggiated patterns he _always_ plays. No matter the song. Drives me up the wall. Brian isn't much of a pianist, but at least the wall-of-chords style doesn't allow for that.

Oh!  Now that I think about it, I think you have a great point about recording during/between tours.  I think that is very likely a big contributing factor.  And I think you're also right that he likes his "new" voice.  I kinda get it, it's cool when you get older and you get more depth and body to your voice...but I'm still glad I can hit that high C, too, y'know?

The sinus thing...it just hit me watching him doing the nose thing (it's called the valsalva maneuver...it's used to reinflate the eardrum when it gets retracted from pressure issues caused by mucous getting sucked up into the middle ear).  I was stunned to notice it again and again and again.  He does it surreptitiously, and he does it ALL the time. I'm sensitive to this because I had an awful year and a half where the hearing in my left ear was distorted from a similar problem, and I did the same thing so I could try to hear properly.  I saw that and went, crap, he's got to be experiencing something similar.  And one of the other things that happens is your sinuses get so backed up that it becomes this wall you have to sing through.  Your range decreases and it becomes much harder and more painful to get the top notes, and you get raspy and your voice goes out.  I had those same problems too.  But watch his videos carefully and you'll see him take a split second and put his hand to his nose...that's what he's doing.  I wish I knew someone who knew him, because I had problems along these lines for years and the docs were no help at all.  I finally got mostly better through self-treatment and experimenting...and my range went back up, and my hearing mostly went back to normal.

Elton's always attiributed the loss of his falsetto to his throat surgery, but it's not as simple as that.  He didn't stop singing falsetto until around 1990...there's still a lot of high stuff on the SLEEPING WITH THE PAST album, which is two years post-surgery...not as high as the '70s, but definitely in head voice/falsetto.  There are a few isolated instances of him doing small falsetto bits after that if you listen carefully, though it's very, very infrequent.  But it's not like he has nothing up there, or at least it wasn't the case until recently.  I also wonder if it isn't similar to Al Jardine's situation where you still have a few notes up there, but because they're so weak and your full voice is so strong, you can't connect them, so it's useless in most situations.  I know when my voice goes out, it's the connector notes that go first...the link notes between full voice and the head voice range.  They took the longest to develop and were the hardest to learn to manipulate, and they're the first to go under stress.  Could be a similar thing with what happened to Elton.

I just think Elton's baritone singing style undercuts a lot of great writing.  I've never actually liked the change in his voice going back to '79, when his voice got a lot more affected, but I've grown to appreciate the mid-period years, even if it's not my favorite.  There's just something about Elton in the upper register that's really distinctive and cool.  When he gets down in the low range, he tends to bellow, and that sucker bugs me.  I DO like it on SFTWC though.  It's very Leonard Cohen, and very direct.  I believe every word he sings on that album, it's one of his most convincing vocal performances.  But the later ones, it's just bluster to me.  I loathe PEACHTREE ROAD.  Bad vocals, meh songs and the electronics creep back in.

I agree about "Tinderbox" though I think "The Walls Fell Down" and "Wouldn't Have You Any Other Way" are even cooler.  C&TK did a very nice job recapturing his old spirit, but...criminy.  The vocals just blow it.  "The Bridge" in particular is soooo rough.

I don't have a strong opinion on the Leon Russell album.  I've heard parts of that.  It strikes me as a really good album, but not anything I'm that interested in.  It's just a different bird entirely...which is fine and appropriate, I'm just not into it.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2011, 01:18:28 AM by adamghost » Logged
Wirestone
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« Reply #86 on: January 05, 2011, 12:13:13 PM »

Don't mean to derail things here, BTW -- it's just that I wish a board like this existed to talk about Elton stuff. There are some EJ forums, but almost no one on them knows anything about music. And I actually think EJ -- for all of his continuing fame and record sales -- is terminally underrated. He's actually too famous (and probably likes being so) for people to take his music seriously. I mean, The Union is an excellent album, but the reaction to it seemed a bit overheated compared with C&TK, which was mostly ignored.
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adamghost
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« Reply #87 on: January 05, 2011, 11:46:00 PM »

Totally agree...I was an Elton shipper before even the Beach Boys, but having worked out so many of his songs recently my respect for him as a songwriter has skyrocketed.  To put together some of these progressions in 15 minutes' time...it's simply genius.  Not Brian Wilson-ish genius, but genius nonetheless.  Some of the chord sequences are simply stunning.  "Someone Saved My Life Tonight" is one of the greatest songs ever done by anyone, anywhere, anytime.

There's a board called Crazy Water I've seen somewhere and popped in on a few times, but yeah, I haven't seen a place where there's this kind of minutiae...I think there may be an issue in that the Beach Boys have a huge following that's about an inch deep, and a then sizable following that's more cult-like.  Elton's mainstream audience is much more into him than the BBs'...but the cult is much smaller.  Which is why I think a lot of his message boards have struck me as being not as deep, and a little bit sycophantic.  It's just, as you say, people that don't know that much about music, or may have gotten into him as an A/C artist, or whatever, and aren't that discriminating.

THE UNION is undoubtedly a fine record, but it strikes me as hitting a bulls' eye with a certain old hipster market (think KCRW and Starbucks) that until now were put off by his mainstream easy listening image, regardless of whether his records warranted it or not. Hence the difference in sales and critical reception.  What I've heard of it doesn't strike me as being as good as C&TK...but I hear it striking a chord with people that don't want to be associated with anything they consider pop.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2011, 11:47:47 PM by adamghost » Logged
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