Carl Wilson after the BB85 album

[Rocker]

Personally, I tend to think he stayed to keep the peace---to not upset the family. He was always the stabilizer.

That's it. The Beach Boys probably would've broken up a long time ago if they weren't all family

[adamghost]

I think all Carl's decisions were perfectly understandable and justifiable if you walked in the guy's shoes.  I mean, he really tried to reinvent the band in the '70s, made some interesting music, but in terms of commercial relevance, Mike's vision of the band won out.  Without the record sales, and with the reality of where their live audience was at starting them in the face every night, Carl couldn't advance the band's artistic vision any further, and why should he kill himself trying?  He'd had his shot, and the records he produced and/or wrote didn't sell.  In the cold hard calculation of the record industry, that's that.

And it's not like he didn't pitch in when there was room for him to do so.  I mean, look, the guy basically saved the '85 album.  Without Carl's contributions on there, what have you got?  Not a heck of a lot.  I don't see where Carl's writing would have fitted on SIP or STILL CRUISIN', and if he'd tried, he just would have compromised himself.  He did offer "Run Don't Walk" (a fine tune IMHO) for the proposed '96 album, and that would have fit great.

[Sound of Free]

The thing that puzzles me about Carl was killing the reunion in 95/96. "You're Still a Mystery" and "Soul Searching" were not Pet Sounds material, but they were good songs. Couldn't he have fought for Brian to come up with BETTER songs instead of walking out for good because of a song he didn't like. He could have gotten "Run Don't Walk" on, and I think Carl would have been the perfect person to propose doing a Dennis track the way the Beatles did with the John songs for the Beatles Anthology.

It's just hard to picture a guy whose vocals were all over Summer in Paradise drawing an artistic line in the sand then.

As for being on stage, there was a clip that used to be on YouTube that summed it up perfectly. It was circa 88, and Carl did a beautiful version of "Forever." He performed it perfectly, and at the end told the audience, "That's a Dennis Wilson song for you guys."

Then Mike brought out the cheerleaders.

Carl must have known the best way to get the great music out there was as a Beach Boy, where the audiences (and money) would be, and he would have to tolerate Mike.

[Emdeeh]

I think Carl loved performing too, and that was one of his major motivations for staying with the band.

I think all Carl's decisions were perfectly understandable and justifiable if you walked in the guy's shoes.

Yep, you're right on the money, Adam. I totally agree with that assessment.

[TdHabib]

As for being on stage, there was a clip that used to be on YouTube that summed it up perfectly. It was circa 88, and Carl did a beautiful version of "Forever." He performed it perfectly, and at the end told the audience, "That's a Dennis Wilson song for you guys."

Then Mike brought out the cheerleaders.

It's still there:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=55XBMJ_ZM58

I must admit on a personal basis I watched this with my son and he left the room in disgust when the cheerleaders were brought out. I wasn't that far from it, playing "Forever" sums up everything that the BB should have been doing in 1988 and everything they weren't except on a special occasion. Having said that, Carl is basically the only BB that (with one exception, The Paley sessions, which I'm still angry about) acted rationally and whose actions didn't usually lead to a stand off or argument. He did everything for his family, for the peace, for the good of the band. In almost every performance I've seen of Carl excepting the Australia debacle he's giving 100%, loving every minute (except when someone makes a mistake) and doing a damn fine job. The heart and soul of the group.

I'm still thinking the BB should have broke up after Dennis died.

[Peadar 'Big Dinner' O'Driscoll]

That video is very depressing or maybe i just drank too much this weekend...

[oldsurferdude]

As for being on stage, there was a clip that used to be on YouTube that summed it up perfectly. It was circa 88, and Carl did a beautiful version of "Forever." He performed it perfectly, and at the end told the audience, "That's a Dennis Wilson song for you guys."

Then Mike brought out the cheerleaders.

It's still there:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=55XBMJ_ZM58

I must admit on a personal basis I watched this with my son and he left the room in disgust when the cheerleaders were brought out. I wasn't that far from it, playing "Forever" sums up everything that the BB should have been doing in 1988 and everything they weren't except on a special occasion. Having said that, Carl is basically the only BB that (with one exception, The Paley sessions, which I'm still angry about) acted rationally and whose actions didn't usually lead to a stand off or argument. He did everything for his family, for the peace, for the good of the band. In almost every performance I've seen of Carl excepting the Australia debacle he's giving 100%, loving every minute (except when someone makes a mistake) and doing a damn fine job. The heart and soul of the group.

I'm still thinking the BB should have broke up after Dennis died.

Amen.

[Wirestone]

Carl's actions re: the Paley sessions make more and more sense when you realize that (as I've come to think) that he came to care more about Brian as a person than a musician. He'd come to realize that he couldn't depend on Brian to guide the band. He saw how the mid-70s comeback ended up nearly killing BW. He saw how a solo career, under Landy, did nearly the same thing.

I think it must have been painful, to say the least, to think that Brian might have been setting himself up for another flameout like that in the mid-90s. I think that's what Carl, deep down, worried about. And to see his brother essentially handled by an entire new group -- Paley, Was, Melinda -- must have set off the "here we go again" alarm bells. This wasn't Brian. This was another circus act. And if the music was only okay -- not great, not amazing, certainly not commercial -- why bother? Better to spend time with his brother while he still could, repair the actual relationship, and let the music alone.

I don't agree with that necessarily, but I think Carl might have seen it that way.

[TdHabib]

Clay, your scenario makes perfect sense, but something just doesn't sit right with the scenario of Carl of Carl hearing "Soul Searchin'" and "You're Still a Mystery" in ANY production and going "nope, not good enough." ESPECIALLY when you've sludged through 15 years or so of "Problem Child"'s, "Happy Ending's" and "Summer of Love's." Fundamentally, it's skewed: you'd think just on a personal, musical level he would appreciate the artistry of those two songs and ignore the personal BS and enviornment. He loved music, this is the man that continually praised things like "Please Let me Wonder," the backing track to "Sloop John B," "This Whole World" these were his bread and butter and what he appreciated. And for him to veto things like "Soul Searchin'" and "You're Still a Mystery" just doesn't sit right with me.

I'm sorry for derailing, I can suggest one of two scenarios: he was sick already, might not have even known it. I remember AGD saying that by the beginning of 1996 he was visibly not well and remember this was November 1995. That or he had somehow (and I'm straining not to make this sound dramatic) he had gotten sucked into the nostalgia, commercial aspect of the band and couldn't find his way out. Like a Brother certainly bears out the latter.

Remember that Carl also mixed down Love You, Brian's most challenging album and sang his heart out on the most crackpot of
Adult/Child material. He also was one of Brian's closest companions during Pet Sounds, when the atmosphere was questionable and Marilyn dissaproved of it.

All of it is just one big tangled mess and I don't think anyone knows the full answer.

[runnersdialzero]

Remember that Carl also mixed down Love You, Brian's most challenging album and sang his heart out on the most crackpot of
Adult/Child material. He also was one of Brian's closest companions during Pet Sounds, when the atmosphere was questionable and Marilyn dissaproved of it.

Hm, I've always wondered what she thought of Brian's music and what she thought when he switched directions with Pet Sounds and Smile. Did you mean Mike or Marilyn? Sorry to stray so far off topic, but...

[TdHabib]

I think she loved Pet Sounds (Marilyn) but she didn't care for Tony or the crowd he attracted. One of the experts could better fill you in.

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

I'm sorry for derailing, I can suggest one of two scenarios: he was sick already, might not have even known it. I remember AGD saying that by the beginning of 1996 he was visibly not well and remember this was November 1995

That's always been my theory, and I'm sticking to it.

[Jason]

From my first memories of reading about him, the first thing I thought about Carl Wilson was this - what you see is what you get. Of all of the Beach Boys, Carl was the least prone to bullshitting. He was certainly the warmest and most inviting of any of them. A perennial albatross, always up in the air, doing his own thing while still being democratic with the group.

Brian essentially had Carl as his right-hand man. And Carl was always around for his brother. And we all know that Carl was in genuine awe of his brother's talents. For someone as sensitive (in a good way) as Carl, watching his brother slowly burn out personally (forget creatively, that's a THREAD), especially when his brother was the reason he managed to become famous and successful could only have been among the most crushing blows ever dealt to him.

When Brian retreated, a whole lot of responsibility went onto Carl's (as well as Dennis') shoulders. Early on, forced to scramble and improvise around Brian's inconsistent bursts of creativity, Carl was able to develop into a much more talented artist at a rate almost as amazing as Brian had a few years before. And Carl's hard work was certainly of great artistic merit, and led the way for the band's evolution from America's preeminent pop group to a great recording and touring rock band. The world caught on too late to Carl's efforts, and by the time they were recognized, the band was starting to slow their progression to a crawl, finally sidestepping, and taking a huge step back. While I am quite sure Carl was not one to piss on or try to lessen the value the band's initial success, all of his work from when Brian stepped back to when the oldies show came running back in full force must have been disheartening for him.

There is, of course, this one conflicting story, which came from Jim Guercio, who had mentioned to the band back in late 1973 that while the shows were good, they were too loose and the audience was inconsistently entertained depending on how well-versed they were in the Beach Boys' music. He recommended that they add more of the oldies to the setlist. And the response from all of the touring band was a unanimous "yes". Where this fits in is anyone's guess.

The Beach Boys were certainly easily convinced by the almighty dollar to jump on the relentless touring bandwagon once Endless Summer became successful. There was money to be made, and they jumped at the opportunity. Sure, it's one thing to be artistic but quite another to be artistic and working from gig to gig just to survive. Carl, as the leader during their period in the desert in the early 1970s, was quite aware of that kind of burden. Their finances dropped fast, and by 1971 they were financing their tours with Brian's royalties. And this is where the conflict comes in.

Carl did want to be an artist. But once confronted with a rapidly declining Brian and Dennis on and off stage, his own troubles with Michael and Al, his marriage falling apart, and his drug and alcohol problems, he was forced to choose what was more important to him. And this was where the Beach Boys, while they were his bread and butter, became secondary to family.

Carl was able to exorcise his demons, and he wanted to have his brothers cleaned up and brought back to prominence within the group. He was a man of great patience when it came to Brian's often embarrassing live performances and rapidly lackluster studio work, and the issue of Dennis and Michael being at each other's throats would have driven most sane people over the edge. Carl was diplomatic and let Dennis off for a time to get his act together. And Dennis was able to get back in decent shape for a bit before spiraling out of control again.

But once it became obvious that it was a situation of life or death for both Brian and Dennis, Carl decided enough was enough. Family had to come first. His brothers and cousin took priority. He was instrumental in getting Brian back under Landy's care, which, while it was a bad move in the long run, was at least enough to allow Brian to return to a healthy frame of mind. And he certainly tried what he could to help Dennis. Dennis was guided by his own whims and not even the patience of Carl was enough to convince Dennis beyond a few couple-day stints in rehab. Carl even let Dennis stay with him at one point in 1983 when Dennis was homeless.

The loss of Dennis was the first blow. You can see it all over Carl's face in the press conference video the day after Dennis died. Something inside of him was gone. He had lost one of his brothers, and Brian was slowly going back to being himself. Carl's responsibility as the leader of the Beach Boys was still of importance to him; he wanted to be sure the fans were treated to a good time every day they performed. Everyone knows the stories of Carl's charity and kindness with the fans. Family still came first. I will never say that Carl gave up. He was too good to just give up on the Beach Boys and the fans. But they did become a lesser priority. And that's why as time went on, his input in the songwriting department slowed to a crawl.

When it came to the reunion in 1995, I'm sure Carl had modest expectations as to how Brian would deliver. But it soon became obvious, no matter how great the material was, that Brian was essentially being controlled again. Not by the drugs, but by his handlers. And this was something of which Carl wanted no part. He wanted to work with Brian, not with Brian's handlers. And Carl being the lucky person to put a half-hearted vocal down on Dancing The Night Away? I would have thrown up my arms and walked out too. It was a circus. This wasn't his brother he was working with. He was working with his brother's handlers. He preferred to do the right thing and walk away. And honestly, considering what Brian's subjected us to in the last fifteen years, Carl did us a favor. The show would go on, but if Brian wasn't going to be himself, then Carl wanted nothing to do with it.

It amazes me that people have the gall, the fucking nerve, to say Carl "gave up". Need I remind anyone what Carl did when he was diagnosed with his cancer? He went right back out on tour. He was the consummate professional, performing every night. He was certainly not without difficulties while doing so; he was confined to a stool for most of the shows, standing up occasionally when he took a lead vocal, and always for God Only Knows. He needed oxygen after every single song. A lesser man would have taken a cancer diagnosis as a death sentence. Carl Wilson kept putting himself out there until he couldn't anymore. People then say that Michael was a motherfucker for saying that he couldn't bear to see Carl onstage and wanted him gone. He couldn't bear to see Carl onstage in the condition he was in. I don't know how that makes Michael a motherfucker. And it's not like Michael wanted Carl "gone". He wanted Carl to try with every part of himself to beat his illness and get back out there. And I'm quite sure Carl wanted that too. Anyone who doubts that is a truly sick individual.

Carl Wilson was a trooper right until he breathed his last. He was, by far, the most levelheaded man in the group. And he was one of the lucky ones who was around to receive all of this adoration from his fans, rather than receiving it posthumously.

He didn't give up. Nature stepped in. Carl Wilson was not a quitter.

God Save Carl Wilson.

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

That...was...one of the best posts I have ever read on this forum. I'll give a more detailed response in a little while. But yeah, man, that was cool.

[runnersdialzero]

Mind = blown. What a brilliant post - very, very, very well said, in every way.

*APPLAUSE*!!!!!

[C.Miller]

Cheers dude, nicely done.

[Emdeeh]

A very clear assessment of Carl's situation, well done!

Carl Wilson was a trooper right until he breathed his last. He was, by far, the most levelheaded man in the group. And he was one of the lucky ones who was around to receive all of this adoration from his fans, rather than receiving it posthumously.

The last time I saw Carl, in June 1997, was a profoundly moving experience. He used GOK as a means of reaching out to the audience, to tell us how much he appreciated us, his fans, by locking eyes with individuals in the crowd and singing the verses directly to them. At the end of the song, a group of us stood up and yelled "We love you, Carl!" in unison. He bowed to us. Other fans held up signs of support and he acknowledged each one of them. He was a consummate trouper to the end.

God Save Carl Wilson.

Amen, brother, amen!

[gsmile]

That was a brilliant and incredibly moving post, Richard.  Thank-you.

[TdHabib]

I'm sorry, I just can't take the anti-Brian stance in this respect: I think in 1995 with "Soul Searchin'" and "You're Still a Mystery" he was firing on all cylinders and it is one of the few times in the travesty that is the post-Dennis career of the band I can wholeheartedly love the songs. Remember that Carl walked out of THESE sessions, not the "Dancin' the Night Away" sesions.

[Andrew G. Doe]

"People then say that Michael was a motherfucker for saying that he couldn't bear to see Carl onstage and wanted him gone. He couldn't bear to see Carl onstage in the condition he was in. I don't know how that makes Michael a motherfucker. And it's not like Michael wanted Carl "gone". He wanted Carl to try with every part of himself to beat his illness and get back out there. And I'm quite sure Carl wanted that too. Anyone who doubts that is a truly sick individual."

Ummm... well... I've had a conversation repeated to me, by someone who was there... and I'll just say, Mike didn't come out of it smelling of roses. I know he's an advocate of 'tough love', but...

[Foster's Freeze]

My guess is that Carl became frustrated and just gave in.

After Brian tanked and left the 70's up to the rest of the band, Carl did a great job trying to assume the leadership position.  That said, I believe that the band had grown so accustomed to Brian providing them with their next move, their next hit, etc., that when that dried up, the lack of overall leadership from the entire band led them to the beginning of the rolling jukebox era.

Mike didn't want the formula f'd with and with Dennis drifting away and Al's contributions minimal, maybe Carl tried to make his statement in '81 but just out of frustration gave up.

Considering how frustrated we fans are, imagine being a member of the band.............

[Dancing Bear]

A simple question.... Why are we singling out Carl as the Beach Boy who gave up or gave in?

[Foster's Freeze]

In fairness, we could take a poll to ask who gave up first.

[Magic Transistor Radio]

A simple question.... Why are we singling out Carl as the Beach Boy who gave up or gave in?

I am not saying that he was the only one. They all did in a sense. But Carl seemed to be the one healthy voice left in the 1980s that had been fighting to keep the BBs fresh and not formulaic. Perhaps the fact that his two biggest allies were no longer able to help him was a big reason. But probably the main reason was money. I would say that when Carl and Al became 'allies', that Carl moved more to the right then Al did to the left. And Mike kept pulling further to the right. BB85 seemed to be the last time Carl attempted to keep the BBs contemparary. In any case, as someone has stated, he NEVER gave up his love for the fans.

[Mike's Beard]

A simple question.... Why are we singling out Carl as the Beach Boy who gave up or gave in?

I think the original question that was posed was more why Carl's songwriting dried up rather than why he stopped caring about the group. Let's face it Mike wrote more in the mid '80s to early 90's than ever and Al and Bruce still came up with material  for each new release but Carl seemed to be more a gun (or should that read voice) for hire. Can't escape the fact that whoever's supplying the bulk of the material is leading the band. The late 60's early 70's may have been an exception but that is because Carl had so many half finished Brian songs to draw from that he worked into shape.*

The period we are discussing is around the time Carl hit 40. Rock is essentially a young man game. I'm not saying 40 is ready for the glue factory but the desire to take on the world with your music is probably fading by that point. He must have realised there are people with worse jobs in life than playing timeless music to screaming fans the world over for megabucks and probably just decided to roll with it.

* You could argue he deserved co writing credits on "Sail on Sailer" and "Marcella".