Carl Wilson after the BB85 album

[Magic Transistor Radio]

I recently bought the BB85 cd. Hadn't owned it for nearly 10 years. Now I remember why. But I noticed that 3 or 4 of the better songs were Carl's. What about after this album? Did Carl write many songs afterward? If so, why weren't they included on Stil Cruisin and Summer in Paradise? What did Carl think of SIP? I get the sense that he eventually gave up the fight and let Mike control the band.

[Synth Wash]

I've wondered this myself. He comes up with a song like The Trader for Holland, and even Full Sail and ACH were pretty good for L.A, but his collaborations with Randy Bachman for KTSA aside, it seems we don't really hear from him until the Beckley/Lamm/Wilson album just before his death?

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

I'd go even earlier and wonder what the hell happened after Holland. It seems like Carl's marriage problems and subsequent heroin addiction (or did it come first?)completely killed his drive and was just as responsible IMHO to their failure to keep up their (artistic) momentum as Brian being forced back in.

[MBE]

I'd go even earlier and wonder what the hell happened after Holland. It seems like Carl's marriage problems and subsequent heroin addiction (or did it come first?)completely killed his drive and was just as responsible IMHO to their failure to keep up their (artistic) momentum as Brian being forced back in.

I think it's fair to say that Carl did his best work before Murry died, but I think he really lost his drive after the loss of Dennis. He did his songs for the 1985 LP but he really wasn't trying to take control of the band by that point.

[Rocker]

I'd go even earlier and wonder what the hell happened after Holland. It seems like Carl's marriage problems and subsequent heroin addiction (or did it come first?)completely killed his drive and was just as responsible IMHO to their failure to keep up their (artistic) momentum as Brian being forced back in.

I think it's fair to say that Carl did his best work before Murry died, but I think he really lost his drive after the loss of Dennis. He did his songs for the 1985 LP but he really wasn't trying to take control of the band by that point.

On the other hand he did two quite weak soloalbums when Dennis was still alive. I think Carl just wasn't as gifted as a songwriter as his brothers were. His powers were in producing I guess

[punkinhead]

What about Make it Big?  Is it just him vocally? who wrote it?

[phirnis]

It was written by Terry Melcher/Bill House/Mike Love.

[BillA]

I find Carl to be the most fascinating Beach Boy, probably because we know so little about him.  Even Mike, who is never at a loss for words, has never said much about Carl.  In interviews Carl would talk about the music, but would almost never talk about band politics (he did make some general comments about not rehearsing when stopped touring in 1981 and he was quoted as saying "I felt sorry for the guys" following the Queen Mary disaster).

All we have are observations:

1. As the 70's dawned Carl was the leader of the band, both in studio, and on stage.  Would Blondie and Ricky have been brought on board without Carl? 

2. By '76 he had lost leadership to Mike.  If it were not a family business he probably would have departed the band.  He seemed to have stopped writing songs.

3. About the same time his marriage began to fail, a rift developed with Brian and he developed a drug problem.

4.  He is pretty much absent from MIU.  A look at performances from 77 and 78 show a guy who does not want to be on stage.  This kills performances because Carl was central to the show.

5.  He cleaned himself up in '79.  Started contributing songs and became a great performer again (he is the star of the show at Knebworth.

6. He tried going solo and it didn't work.

7. His relationship with Brian remained strained until a few years before his death.

8. He garnered a great deal of respect.  Reading obituaries and comments following his death the constant theme is about what a great human being he was - More so than one would have expected to see.


Given that my guess as to what went on with him is as follows:

1.  The removal as leader of the band, his rift with Brian and the end of his marriage were probably connected someway and were strong contributors to his drug use.

2. My sense is that he did not buy into the 'Brian is Back' hype but did not know what to do about it.

3. He might have felt trapped in the 76-78 era.  The money was good but emotional toll was great.

4. By 1982 he just gave into it.  Maybe he realized that Beach Boys would never be an outlet for any creative ambitions he might have but reconciled himself to it.  By this time he was in another relationship, had great sons and maybe he figured that there were worse things than being paid a lot playing great music every night.

It seems though that with Carl there are more questions than answers:

1. What was his relationship with Mike like?   From 1961 to 1981 the one constant on stage was Mike and Carl.  While Carl was away (or in the bag)  the band sucked - even Mike must have known that. 

2. What was the rift with Brian about? 

3.  He and Dennis appeared tight (he was going to be in Dennis band for the aborted tour).  Dennis could be difficult.  Were there any issues related to running interference for Dennis.

4.  He stopped producing after Holland (except for being "Mixdown Producer" on Love You which I took to mean he finished Brian's work) - he didn't even produce his solo work - why?

[Mike's Beard]

In regards to the Carl and Brian rift has anybody else noticed that Carl seems VERY uncomfortable around Brian in the "I Just Wasn't Made For These Times" doc.

 As to why Carl's songwriting dried up, lets face it he was never the most prolific of writers even at his peak. 2 a year seemed to be the average. However he did write a couple of blinders post Holland - don't forget both "River Song" and "Rainbows" have his name alongside that of Dennis as co writer. We assume they were written primarily by Dennis but who really knows just how much input baby brother had?

I think when the whole "Brian's (not actually) Back" campain happened Carl took it kinda hard that all his amazing accomplishments as leader were forgotten in a flash the second Brian wanted back in and must have felt that the record company didn't really give a toss if he wrote anymore songs or not.

[Andrew G. Doe]

As to why Carl's songwriting dried up, lets face it he was never the most prolific of writers even at his peak. 2 a year seemed to be the average. However he did write a couple of blinders post Holland - don't forget both "River Song" and "Rainbows" have his name alongside that of Dennis as co writer. We assume they were written primarily by Dennis but who really knows just how much input baby brother had?

No way would I credit Carl with 'writing' those titles. My guess is that he got the credit for tweaking the lyrics a bit (as per "Holy Man" - you don't think Taylor Hawkins 'wrote' that, I take it ?) - both songs were several years old by the time the POB sessions started.

[grillo]

I always thought Carl didn't really see himself as a "Beach Boys" kind of songwriter, and the few good songs he did were sort of consciously in the vein of brother Bri. In other words, he naturally wrote songs like those on  his solo album and the later BB albums, and maybe he felt like a poser when he just aped his brother's style. Just athought....

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

7. His relationship with Brian remained strained until a few years before his death.

Considering he was the one who ruined the reunion in 1996, I think you can safely replace "years" with "months."

[Magic Transistor Radio]

If Carl had produced his own solo albums they could've been a lot better IMO. Carl's strength was producing.

I am not so sure that Brian returning to the studio is the main reason for Carl's set back. For whatever reason, the BBs stopped recording regularly after Holland. The set list was fairly progressive until 78(?). It seems that initially Dennis and Carl were excited to have Brian back (watching them sing Bugged at My Old Man - 1976). However, they soon realised that Brian was in no shape to lead the band.

Did Dennis and Carl have much to say about Love You? I know they were embarassed by MIU which I believe was more Mike and Al lead then Brian.

It also seems that Mike has had nothing but good to say about Carl. What other BB could you say that about?   

[Mike's Beard]

As to why Carl's songwriting dried up, lets face it he was never the most prolific of writers even at his peak. 2 a year seemed to be the average. However he did write a couple of blinders post Holland - don't forget both "River Song" and "Rainbows" have his name alongside that of Dennis as co writer. We assume they were written primarily by Dennis but who really knows just how much input baby brother had?

No way would I credit Carl with 'writing' those titles. My guess is that he got the credit for tweaking the lyrics a bit (as per "Holy Man" - you don't think Taylor Hawkins 'wrote' that, I take it ?) - both songs were several years old by the time the POB sessions started.

I do wonder about "Rainbows" through, as it seems to be the only Dennis song post '69 that was wrote via the guitar as opposed to being composed from a piano so maybe/maybe not?

Speaking of "Holy Man", the Taylor Hawkins version is just amazing. It almost feels as if Dennis is singing through Taylor.

[BillA]

It also seems that Mike has had nothing but good to say about Carl. What other BB could you say that about?   

I have never really read any of Mike's comments on Carl.  What has he said?

[Magic Transistor Radio]

It also seems that Mike has had nothing but good to say about Carl. What other BB could you say that about?   

I have never really read any of Mike's comments on Carl.  What has he said?

Not much. But the little he has said is positive. But come to think of it, nobody in the BBs has ever said much negative about Carl. The usually comments are that he had a great voice, he was a sweet guy and a good on stage leader. The only negative is that he is not as gifted as his brothers.

[oldsurferdude]

It also seems that Mike has had nothing but good to say about Carl. What other BB could you say that about?   

I have never really read any of Mike's comments on Carl.  What has he said?

Not much. But the little he has said is positive. But come to think of it, nobody in the BBs has ever said much negative about Carl. The usually comments are that he had a great voice, he was a sweet guy and a good on stage leader. The only negative is that he is not as gifted as his brothers.

While neither Carl nor Dennis were as gifted as their big brother, which one was perhaps the more talented? Interesting topic for its own thread maybe?

[Mike's Beard]

Carl = better singer and producer & Dennis = better songwriter.*




*Exception to every rule - "The Trader" is my 4th all time favourite Beach Boy track.

[BJL]

my vague understanding was that Carl had a handful of songs lined up for the Holland followup (which I assume would have been in a similar vein to long promised road, trader etc.).  I think its hard to imagine how horrible it must feel to lead a band for years after a certain sound and feel, and work really hard to grow as a producer and songwriter, and then to finally have a real shot at mainstream success and then....release 15 big ones.  Brian Mike and Al never really had real artistic ambition (brian after 197ish obviously).  Even Love You doesn't seem like Brian trying hard so much as it seems like Brian being so talented it doesnt matter how hard he tries.  So for Carl and Dennis, who had very real artistic ambitions that they clearly took seriously...it must have been a hell of a blow.  Also, in my opinion, Carl's first solo album and also the TV appearances he did to promote it show a man really happy, excited to be playing rock and roll, having a good time, making music he wants to make.  Is it great music...maybe not, but its contemporary sounding, and a heck of a lot of fun.  But I think having his solo career just completely bomb commercially and go nowhere must have been a real blow.  Followed immediately by the death of his brother, who he had clearly been close to.  It's really not surprising at all that he stopped trying after that. 

[Jay]

The deeper I go into researching the band, and the more I read about them, the more pissed off I get at Carl. Sorry if that offends a few people here, but it's the truth. Something about Carl really changed around the time of Love You. We all know how it all came to a peak during the Australian tour a year later. I don't know if it was the drugs, the fighting, or maybe bad managment. But something seems to have made Carl not really care about fighting for the group anymore. After Dennis died, I think he just finally totally gave up. The obvious question is, why didn't he leave the group again, but this time for good?

[Dutchie]

The deeper I go into researching the band, and the more I read about them, the more pissed off I get at Carl. Sorry if that offends a few people here, but it's the truth. Something about Carl really changed around the time of Love You. We all know how it all came to a peak during the Australian tour a year later. I don't know if it was the drugs, the fighting, or maybe bad managment. But something seems to have made Carl not really care about fighting for the group anymore. After Dennis died, I think he just finally totally gave up. The obvious question is, why didn't he leave the group again, but this time for good?

He failed once in 81 and he dont want to lose the money ...what else could he do?

[Mike's Beard]

It is a shame for sure that he stopped trying but to be fair on the man  he swam against the tide for several years before finally realising it was futile to keep trying. It just became obvious to all involved that the masses didn't want anything more from the band beyond the likes of a "Barbara Ann" or "I Get Around" and that any new album would just be an excuse for the record company to have something new to shill when the "Touring Jukebox" came to town.

[Dutchie]

I'm glad that Carl was the one after 81 that got the band back together and rehearse again. They sound way better from then on.

[Sheriff John Stone]

Carl said in a couple of post-1980 interviews, and I'm paraphrasing, "Without Brian in charge/control, it's not really worth doing...", or something to that effect, referring to new Beach Boys' albums. I think Carl realized earlier, after the 15 Big Ones/Love You debacle, that Brian was more "gone" than initially thought. I sometimes think that depressed Carl more than anything else, seeing that genius/gift/person/brother a shell of his former self.

Why did Carl stay? I also saw interviews with Carl where he stated that he still loved performing, playing for people, playing Beach Boys' music. I mean, who wouldn't. By that time, they were a well-oiled machine. I guess playing timeless music, being good at your profession, getting standing ovations, adulation, and being a "Beach Boy" was too hard to give up. But that wasn't all to be sure - $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

[TdHabib]

Personally, I tend to think he stayed to keep the peace---to not upset the family. He was always the stabilizer.